Natalee Case Discussion #735 2/24/08 -2/27/08

[Kermit]

You're most welcome Miss Magnolia

[kippy]

This post seems to imply the FBI has a sample of the exact match of the type of material of her blouse.  I just assumed they had a shirt identical to the one Natalee wore.  I surely never thought any evidence found at Boca Tortuga was turned over to the FBI...hope I'm mistaken and it was turned over...  I do hope they found more items that we haven't been privy to yet.

Very early on the ALE got a duplicate of the blouse Natalee was wearing from Beth so they'd know what to throw away if they found a match.

Dayhiker, That is probably so close to the truth its scary   

[AnnieMW1]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

[klaasend]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

I don't find anything suspicious at all about it.  They are testing ANYTHING they find and I think that's a good thing. 

[AZSunny]

MF Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:54 pm    

Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

T ++ (297) 521 4100
F ++ (297) 521 4190


To All media

From The Public Prosecutor’s Office


Date February 26, 2007

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match. 

Maybe Oceanexplorer could clarify.

Why was there an IMMEDIATE "thumbs down" from the Aruban divers to the crew of the Persistence.  The fabric that was found in the the trap had yet to be forensically analyzed?  Apparently ... it took the FBI Laboratory almost a month to make this determination.

Thank you.

Janet

Because I believe they were anticipating seeing a skull as that is what it appeared to be on the computer screen.  I think the thumbs down was an indication that it was not a skull. That is what Tim discussed on the show.  We do not even know if the fabric came from that area or that dive.  Lets at least celebrate that the Persistence is finding items and they are testing them.  I suspect there are a lot more items that have been sent for testing.  I chose to be positive!

[Magnolia]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

You are obviously not familiar with the durability of polyester.
It is practically indestructible, except by fire.

[AZSunny]

Klaas, I screwed up my response above.  I don't know how it ended up in Janet's quote.  sorry

[Tamikosmom]

MF Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:54 pm    

Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

T ++ (297) 521 4100
F ++ (297) 521 4190


To All media

From The Public Prosecutor’s Office


Date February 26, 2007

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match. 

Where did the laboratory receive an EXACT match of the material that comprised Natalee's blouse?  Could this be evidence collected on July 17, 2005 by a park ranger in Boca Tortuga area of Aruba.

My theory implies if Natalee was taken out to sea ... it would have been on the east side of the Island.

Janet

++++++++++++

Tim Miller
RED - SCARED MONKEYS
July 24, 2005

RED: There have been reports that a shallow grave was discovered in the area of Boca Tortuga, on the eastern part of the island. There are also reports that cell-phone calls made by Joran early in the morning came from a location on the eastern side of the island. It seems plausible that thisarea could yield more clues

TIM MILLER: We found a site that we feel as though was a possible gravesite. Our thoughts are that Natalee may have been buried in that hole for 1 or 2 days then moved. We have information that the cell phones were possibly being used in that area
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/07/24/interview-transcript-with-tim-miller-july-24th-2005/
 
 
Karl Penhaul
NANCY GRACE
July 13, 2005

PENHAUL: The searchers were at an area called Boca Prim (ph). That`s on the northern side of the island near the national park.

It`s an area of soft sand dunes. There`s only one road to get down there. It`s a very rough road. You can really only get there by four-wheel drive.  It`s where a dry riverbed meets the ocean. And it`s at that area where this thing that looked like a grave, a hole, about four feet deep and about the length of a body with a mound of sand beside it, was found, Nancy.

GRACE: Now, also, on the north end of the island, where they were today, is that where that lighthouse is?

PENHAUL: Not really, no. The lighthouse is at the northern tip, at the northwest tip. And this area is really on the northeastern side of the island.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/13/ng.01.html
 
 
Fabric/Duct Tape - Boca Tortuga
SCARED MONKEYS
June 18, 2006

What did the Aruba Park Ranger pick up at Boca Tortuga area? Fabric that matched Natalee’s Top?

What ever happened to this material? Why didn’t the media camera man take a close up of what so closely resembled the green fabric of Natalee’s top? One would have thought that they would have zoomed right in to see what had been collected.

On Sunday, July 17, 2005 the park rangers found the duct tape with long blonde hair in the Boca Tortuga area of Aruba. A park ranger being video’d walking around picks up a piece of fabric that matches Natalee’s top.

The question still remains today, what ever happened to this evidence that was collected? We also need to remember that this material that was found washed ashore following the hurricanes that took place last summer. It is highly possibly that the material washed ashore from another location on the island or from out at sea.

View fabric images:
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/06/18/what-did-the-aruba-park-ranger-pick-up-at-boca-tortuga-area-fabric-that-matched-natalees-top/

<snipped>
 

If the fabric that was found in the Boca Tortuga area was fabric from Natalee's top and ... it is now being used as a comparison ... the organizers of the current search should have been informed.  After all ... the Boca Tortuga area is on the opposite side of the island.

When the "exact" fabric evidence is considered ... were Dave Holloway and Tim Miller ever directed by Gerold Dompig to search the East Coast of Aruba or ... were they under the impression that the fabric which was found in the Boca Tortuga area was "fish net".

Janet

++++++++++++

The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

<snipped>

But Tim Miller says that very day, in October, 2005, there was a turning point.

The deputy police chief saw Miller and Dave Holloway and shared a hunch.

Tim Miller: And said, "There's no need for you all to be searching the landfill anymore." He said, "I think you all need to be out in the sea, three to five miles."

Soon, there was another tip -- one that seemed to add credibility to that theory. On the night Natalee disappeared, Miller learned that there had been a break-in at a fisherman's hut on the beach. Among the missing items --- a metal and wire box --- a fish trap.

Miller wondered if they could have used it to dispose of Natalee's body and weigh her down at sea so her body couldn't be discovered.

Tim Miller: Well, we talked to a lot of people in Aruba. And they say 90 percent of anybody that drowns on that side of the island, their bodies will float up to the banks of Venezuela. I don't think that they was willing to take a risk on Natalee’s body floating.

Miller was determined to launch a search, but one sophisticated enough to find a target so tiny -- a fish trap -- in an area so vast seemed just about impossible.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/3/

[AZSunny]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

I don't find anything suspicious at all about it.  They are testing ANYTHING they find and I think that's a good thing. 

Yes!! it is a good thing.  Thanks Klaas.  I know we have all learned to be skeptics on all things Aruba, but this is just getting ridiculous! Yes it is a good thing!

[AnnieMW1]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

I don't find anything suspicious at all about it.  They are testing ANYTHING they find and I think that's a good thing. 

I'm not saying the testing is suspicious.  I'll accept that they found fabric and a crab trap - and the FBI tested it.

What I'm saying is that the production of fabric is suspicious.  It's almost as if they're trying to discount this theory by actually finding a crab trap with fabric - and then ruling out anything to do with Natalee.  What are the odds they would actually find fabric which had been in the ocean for any length of time?  (ie, Was it recently put there?).  And if there is fabric there...where are the bones, Natalee's or not?  Why is there fabric there with no remains.  It's just too weird.

[Bladerunner]

Which would mean they have VERY GOOD reason to be searching the ocean unless her clothes were thrown in the water and her body burried elsewhere. 

Mathilda Waltzing lyrics

Small Lake??

[AnnieMW1]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

You are obviously not familiar with the durability of polyester.
It is practically indestructible, except by fire.

Well, you may be right.  I hadn't thought it was polyester.  Does that last forever?  I was thinking cotton or some other nondurable fabric.

[klaasend]

Klaas, I screwed up my response above.  I don't know how it ended up in Janet's quote.  sorry

Tried to fix it but couldn't do it correctly.  Sorry.

[AnnieMW1]

Not to belabor the point...but what are the odds that the family, Art Woods, etc. receive tips on the crab cage etc...and Persistence goes there...and whoa - there it is!  And wait...there's some fabric too!  But....nope....the FBI has thoroughly checked it out and it's NOT Nat's.  End of story.  Case closed.  It all seems really staged to me...as if they dropped the cage with fabric last week (THE ARUBANS...Paulus' buddies...mafia...etc) in an attempt to squelch the story, get the Persistence to leave and really close this thing down.

[San]

Which would mean they have VERY GOOD reason to be searching the ocean unless her clothes were thrown in the water and her body burried elsewhere. 

Bingo.

[AnnieMW1]

Which would mean they have VERY GOOD reason to be searching the ocean unless her clothes were thrown in the water and her body burried elsewhere. 

Bingo.

All the more reason they wouldn't find fabric....no body to weight it down.  What did they do?  Tie it to the corner of the crab cage???  Not buying this...no way.

[Magnolia]

Not to belabor the point...but what are the odds that the family, Art Woods, etc. receive tips on the crab cage etc...and Persistence goes there...and whoa - there it is!  And wait...there's some fabric too!  But....nope....the FBI has thoroughly checked it out and it's NOT Nat's.  End of story.  Case closed.  It all seems really staged to me...as if they dropped the cage with fabric last week (THE ARUBANS...Paulus' buddies...mafia...etc) in an attempt to squelch the story, get the Persistence to leave and really close this thing down.

We don't know that the fabric that the FBI tested was found anywhere near a crab trap.
We have all been hoodwinked too much by Aruba and it's politicians that it makes
it had to trust anything.

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Monkeys....I find it so hard to believe that fabric of any type or significant time in the sea would last long in the oceans and survive the pull of currents.  Which has me wondering whether this whole cage and fabric is a plant to begin with.  I'd be even more suspicious if they had said they'd found Nat's fabric but not Nat's body.  The whole thing smells to me.

You are obviously not familiar with the durability of polyester.
It is practically indestructible, except by fire.

Well, you may be right.  I hadn't thought it was polyester.  Does that last forever?  I was thinking cotton or some other nondurable fabric.

Polyester has something to do with plastic. Eastman Chemical Co. has a huge plant where I live, and years ago, polyester kept it booming. I've read about it in the paper, and don't remember exactly how it works, but there's a plastic polymer to polyester which gives it the durability quality and also makes it flammable and causes it to sort of "melt" when it burns.

Hi Everyone! 

[AnnieMW1]

Not to belabor the point...but what are the odds that the family, Art Woods, etc. receive tips on the crab cage etc...and Persistence goes there...and whoa - there it is!  And wait...there's some fabric too!  But....nope....the FBI has thoroughly checked it out and it's NOT Nat's.  End of story.  Case closed.  It all seems really staged to me...as if they dropped the cage with fabric last week (THE ARUBANS...Paulus' buddies...mafia...etc) in an attempt to squelch the story, get the Persistence to leave and really close this thing down.

We don't know that the fabric that the FBI tested was found anywhere near a crab trap.
We have all been hoodwinked too much by Aruba and it's politicians that it makes
it had to trust anything.

For sure...

[Tamikosmom]

The Datelilne story said that samples collected at the huge crab trap
 had been sent to the FBI.  I picked up on that because it was a relief to hear that the FBI was doing the testing.

Magnolia ... I are correct.  However ... when it is considered that forensic testing had yet to be conducted ... I fail to comprehend the IMMEDIATE "thumbsdown."

Janet

+++++++++++

The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

<snipped>

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.
 
Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

(On the boat)

Brandon: We have visual on divers and target.

Slowly the divers worked their way down to the trap. They had been instructed to give a thumbs up or thumbs down.  The atmosphere in the survey room was tense, and nerves were raw as Miller, the Aruban authorities and the crew of the Persistence waited for word of what exactly was in the trap. The divers approached the target and signaled above. And then...

(On the boat)

No it's thumbs down. Negative, not it.

Crushing disappointment.

(On the boat)

Tim Miller: Divers coming up right now. I don't know it looked as promising today as it did last night or before.

Miller: Nothing?

Trahan: No.

Chris Hansen: That had to be a crushing blow.

Tim Miller: It was a crushing blow.
 
Now Tim Miller had to deliver that same crushing blow to Natalee’s parents.

Chris Hansen: How hard is it for you to dial their numbers and tell them that this in fact is not the break in the case we-- we hoped for?

Tim Miller: Probably one of the hardest calls I ever made. Probably one of the hardest … probably should have never made the first one. But everything looked right at the time.

<snipped>

To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/