Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 - 2/29/08

[martini]

Obstruction of Justice

private eye writes: Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

Providing intentionally false testimony as WITNESS in a criminal matter is a crime.  The crime is called Obstruction of Justice.  In this case, the criminal acts are extended to include "conspiracy to obstruct justice" as both deepak and jvds willfully "conspired" to create a false story, and further conspired with Satish to do the same.

SM poster Rammstein, when questioned directly about this, claimed that once each of the 3 were named "SUSPECT,"  their previous criminal actions realted to their intentionally false testimony were superceded by the direct criminal charges of murder.  In a sense, this poster claims that there is a reachback immunity provision whereby previous criminal acts are offically ignored -- based on the Aruban convention of prosecuting for the most serious criminal offense possible under the law.  Therefore meaning that if the 3 were prosecuted for obstruction, they then could not be prosecuted for a more serious related offense: murder.

I don't believe this.

In fact, Arlene Ellis Schipper, when asked about this on air during an interview offered up instead an acknowledgement that obstructive acts likely occurred -- but that under Aruban law and given the age of the defendants -- that they would "receive only a couple of months in jail."

This response was evasive and off point.  It further attempts to change the subject with a poorly cast relative argument (we're dealing with rape and murder, why let them off with an obstruction charge?).

The actual point is that the three of them committed a crime for which there is undeniable evidence.  There is no question that each of the 3 main suspects committed obstruction of justice by providing intentionally false testimony as witnesses.  A proactive law enforcement and prosecutorial approach would have been to arrest and prosecute one of the Kalpoe brothers on obstruction, and during this investigation to interrogate him assertively in the hopes of obtaining material clues, evidence and statements about the other two, and about what happened.  This approach is used all over the world: we frequently see violent criminals initially held by police for lesser offenses, as an investigation gathers steam.

The failure to prosecute the 3 main suspects on obstruction charges (and Steve Croes, as well) is one of the strongest pieces of evidence of professional malfeasance and failure to perform offenses in the Aruban police department and prosecutorial branch.

It's disgusting, actually.

.

That charge is related to the harm to the investigation, but what about the intended harm and the actual harm to the 2 innocent men? And if Joran can file civil suits against Peter, why have those 2 men not filed suit against Paulus? Maybe our efforts should be directed towards helping those 2 men and the wife of Rene, the man who was beheaded.

 A Columbian necktie is a message of some sort, as is a man hanging himself and being found dead with his hand in his own pocket. It is physically impossible to hang one's self and keep one hand in your own pocket.

Does the neck mean to be quiet and the hand in the epocket mean to mind your own business?

A Colombian necktie, also known as the Italian necktie, Sicilian necktie, or Cuban necktie, is a method of execution where the victim's neck is slashed (with a knife or other sharp object) and their tongue is pulled out through the open wound. It was a popular method of killing during the Colombian history period called La Violencia that started in 1948 after the leader Jorge Eliecer Gaitan was murdered.

The Colombian Necktie is sometimes erroneously credited as having been invented by drug kingpin Pablo Escobar, but this infamous method of killing was already present since 1950, during La Violencia in Colombia's civil war, it was performed on enemies as psychological warfare meant to scare and intimidate those who later encountered the body

Whats with the hand in the pocket after hanging ones self ? That simply is impossible to do. Someone has to set the hand in the pocket afterwards.

Pocket: financial means; money supply.
Pocketed; to take possesion of for oneself, especially dishonestly.
In one's pocket; in one's power, influence, or possession.
In pocket; having funds.

[wreck]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

[Blonde]

I think Frank, or anyone else, should be able to express his opinion how the hell ever he wants.

If you dont like it, dont read it.

I skip over alot of crap on here because its annoying, should I start complaining everytime I see something I dont like?  This place would be nothing but a complaint board at that point.

Thank you Blah, I feel the same way he should be able to express his opinion,how the hell ever he wants.

[Jo-An]

*snip*
I also, believe there are good Dutch people too.  They have families and just want the best for them and their world..just as we do here in America.  Cultural differences are hard to overcome...some impossible and have to remain that way.  Also, let's not forget the times suspicions have surfaced concerning many things on Aruba.  I know there are some new people that do not understand this and I see no way to get them up to speed at this moment.  I guess what I am asking is...let's not lose sight of the reason we are here....that is what is most important about all of us that reach from one corner of the earth to the other...Natalee Holloway...who is standing with me?

Most of us Dutchies are really good, normal people.  Just as most Americans are really good, normal people.
The thing is, is that there is a concentration of "bad" people in Aruba right now, people who don't feel the strict Dutch rules/laws apply to them on their Carribean "paradise" island. Bribable, corrupt people.
But that's... what... 100 (just guessing here...) people tops. Out of 16 million.
There's good and bad people everywhere in the world. It's just that Aruba has been the center of the SM's attention for the last 3 years that these 100 whatever Dutch people stand out right now, imo. But the rest of us are just kindhearted, honest people. 

[Lala'sMom]

Speaking of timelines...not that we are..but I am...do we know for certain what time Deepak really got off work that night?  Why am I still confused on this time? TIA

[Magnolia]

Someone in the field of metals would be able to tell us or at least give an estimate as to how long that trap has been down there by looking at the corrision on it.I still don't see a small boat carrying it out to sea though unless the body was exchanged from a smaller boat onto a much bigger craft.If by chance it is Natalee,we can certainly rule out her being dumped the night in question though.This would have taken time to plan and get connections made.

From my sport diving experience...the growth on the trap is around 2-ish years....FWIW....and MOHO.

Thankyou Destiny! Would a trap this size move around on the bottom of the ocean due to currents or maybe bad storms?

That would depend on many variables....but with the size and weight...factor in the material it's made of....and that it is laying flat, on a flat bottom...and that water can run through it...I really don't see it moving any, if at all.  JMOO

I think you are right Destiny.  The traps are made to remain fairly stationary....even
the small ones.  When fishermen put the traps out, they have a nylon rope tied to
them with a bouy on the end of the rope.  Each fisherman has a different color bouy.
That is how they know where to look for their catch.  If the trap or cage moved
too much, they would not be able to locate their catch.

[JE]

JE...here is a link with info on the journalist and the camerman.Post 85

******* has a lot more info on this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1291.80

Mum Thx for the link

[Rob]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

wreck - I agree if that is Natalee. She's in the wrong trap. But why continue to raise funds? keeping up appearances in this case would mean people donating money some can not afford to give.

btw - good thinking 

[Bladerunner]

Someone in the field of metals would be able to tell us or at least give an estimate as to how long that trap has been down there by looking at the corrision on it.I still don't see a small boat carrying it out to sea though unless the body was exchanged from a smaller boat onto a much bigger craft.If by chance it is Natalee,we can certainly rule out her being dumped the night in question though.This would have taken time to plan and get connections made.

From my sport diving experience...the growth on the trap is around 2-ish years....FWIW....and MOHO.

Thankyou Destiny! Would a trap this size move around on the bottom of the ocean due to currents or maybe bad storms?

That would depend on many variables....but with the size and weight...factor in the material it's made of....and that it is laying flat, on a flat bottom...and that water can run through it...I really don't see it moving any, if at all.  JMOO

I think you are right Destiny.  The traps are made to remain fairly stationary....even
the small ones.  When fishermen put the traps out, they have a nylon rope tied to
them with a bouy on the end of the rope.  Each fisherman has a different color bouy.
That is how they know where to look for their catch.  If the trap or cage moved
too much, they would not be able to locate their catch.

I asked about this before, and I believe the answer was that the ocean and tides are powerful enough to move shipwrecks.

[klaasend]

Speaking of timelines...not that we are..but I am...do we know for certain what time Deepak really got off work that night?  Why am I still confused on this time? TIA

All we know is Deepak's word and I believe he said he got off at 10 or 11pm, I could be wrong.

[Dihannah1]

*snip*
I also, believe there are good Dutch people too.  They have families and just want the best for them and their world..just as we do here in America.  Cultural differences are hard to overcome...some impossible and have to remain that way.  Also, let's not forget the times suspicions have surfaced concerning many things on Aruba.  I know there are some new people that do not understand this and I see no way to get them up to speed at this moment.  I guess what I am asking is...let's not lose sight of the reason we are here....that is what is most important about all of us that reach from one corner of the earth to the other...Natalee Holloway...who is standing with me?

Most of us Dutchies are really good, normal people.  Just as most Americans are really good, normal people.
The thing is, is that there is a concentration of "bad" people in Aruba right now, people who don't feel the strict Dutch rules/laws apply to them on their Carribean "paradise" island. Bribable, corrupt people.
But that's... what... 100 (just guessing here...) people tops. Out of 16 million.
There's good and bad people everywhere in the world. It's just that Aruba has been the center of the SM's attention for the last 3 years that these 100 whatever Dutch people stand out right now, imo. But the rest of us are just kindhearted, honest people. 

Jo,  you are absolutely correct!  I personally appreciate all of our Dutch posters, who have brought so much here to help us in a way we didn't have before.  These attacks on ANYBODY here who are supporting justice, no matter WHERE they are from are just plain wrong!    I want to personally thank you and ALL the Dutch posters for what you have added to our discussions! 

[Rob]

I asked about this before, and I believe the answer was that the ocean and tides are powerful enough to move shipwrecks.

Also, they have had two hurricanes (Ivan and ??? I forget the last one) and a bunch of tropical storms.

[Anna]

This article is dated today although most of the information is not new.

I do find the last paragraph interesting.  Can our Dutch posters verify if Peter R is to have coverage this Sunday as this seems to imply?

Article:

Man recants role in missing teen case
Says of confession to journalist: 'I told him what he wanted to hear'
By Mike Corder, Associated Press
Article Created: 02/29/2008 02:47:36 AM PST


THE HAGUE, Netherlands — Dutch student Joran van der Sloot denied Friday that he had anything to do with Natalee Holloway's disappearance, saying he lied when he told someone privately he was involved.
The statement came hours after Aruban prosecutors announced they were reopening their investigation into the disappearance of the Alabama teenager after seeing secretly taped material from a Dutch journalist. Van der Sloot was interviewed by the respected Dutch television show "Pauw & Witteman" following reports that crime reporter Peter R. De Vries had captured him making statements about the case.

"It is true I told someone. Everybody will see it Sunday," Van der Sloot said, referring to De Vries' planned television show. De Vries claims to have solved the mystery of Holloway's May 2005 disappearance with the help of an undercover investigation.

Van der Sloot spoke to the late night current affairs show by telephone. His voice was recognizable from an earlier appearance on the show, which has closely followed the Holloway case.

"That is what he wanted to hear, so I told him what he wanted to hear," Van der Sloot said, adding that he had built up a relationship with the man he spoke to, but had never fully trusted him. He did not identify the man.

"It is so stupid, it is so stupid, it is really stupid," Van der Sloot said, his voice cracking.

Aruban prosecutors said earlier Friday that they are reopening their investigation into Holloway's


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disappearance after seeing De Vries' material. "The recordings made available to the Public Prosecutor have given the Public Prosecutor a reason to reopen the investigation," the public prosecutor's office said in a statement.
Aruban prosecutors made no reference to the possibility of an arrest, and Van der Sloot said he does not expect to be arrested again.

"It's easy to prove that what I said is not true, and that actually this is much ado about nothing, and so it's actually a shame that her mother has flown here and everything," he said.

De Vries has not made clear what the "confession" consists of. Dutch newspapers published a partial transcript of his talks with Aruban prosecutor Hans Mos, and Mos' office said Friday that "what appeared on the Internet seems to be a reproduction of a part of the conversation."

In the transcript, De Vries refers to a "confession" he obtained from suspect van der Sloot, but doesn't say what he allegedly admitted to.

In another part of the transcript, the prosecutor says: "Clearly, it's the first time that he's confessed to somebody. This is his coming out."

Holloway, 18, of Mountain Brook, Alabama, was last seen in public leaving a bar with Van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers — Deepak and Satish Kalpoe — hours before she was due to board a flight home from a school trip to Aruba. No trace of her has ever been found.


The three were re-arrested in November, but released within weeks for lack of evidence. Prosecutors then dismissed their case against them, saying they lacked evidence even to prove a crime had been committed. Authorities have said the case could be reopened if new evidence surfaces.

Van der Sloot, who lived in Aruba at the time of Holloway's disappearance, has always denied any role in her disappearance, as have the Kalpoe brothers.

On Thursday, Aruban prosecutors had said they were investigating new information provided by De Vries. Without providing details, the prosecutors said the new material might help them determine how Holloway died and what happened to her body.

De Vries told Dutch television that he used a hidden camera in Aruba and the Netherlands to obtain images "that have proved to be very important" and that he would reveal what happened to Holloway on Sunday.

Two weeks ago, after an appearance on "Pauw & Witteman" with De Vries, Van der Sloot threw wine in the journalist's face after he challenged his credibility.



http://**?source=rss

[Anna]

Make that the last three paragraphs.

.

[Bladerunner]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

wreck - I agree if that is Natalee. She's in the wrong trap. But why continue to raise funds? keeping up appearances in this case would mean people donating money some can not afford to give.

btw - good thinking 

I can see how they could dupe Dateline by telling the divers to put up a false signal. But if you watch the video and read the transcpript then those interviewed would have to have lied about the phone call and heart pains, etc. Not saying that they couldn't or wouldn't do that to preserve the integrity of the evidence, but it's something to think about. Also, Mos was seeing things live at that time, at least it appeared to me given his facial expression. For the Dateline cover to make sense, then Mos would have to have been duped too. 

 

[Magnolia]

Someone in the field of metals would be able to tell us or at least give an estimate as to how long that trap has been down there by looking at the corrision on it.I still don't see a small boat carrying it out to sea though unless the body was exchanged from a smaller boat onto a much bigger craft.If by chance it is Natalee,we can certainly rule out her being dumped the night in question though.This would have taken time to plan and get connections made.

From my sport diving experience...the growth on the trap is around 2-ish years....FWIW....and MOHO.

Thankyou Destiny! Would a trap this size move around on the bottom of the ocean due to currents or maybe bad storms?

That would depend on many variables....but with the size and weight...factor in the material it's made of....and that it is laying flat, on a flat bottom...and that water can run through it...I really don't see it moving any, if at all.  JMOO

I think you are right Destiny.  The traps are made to remain fairly stationary....even
the small ones.  When fishermen put the traps out, they have a nylon rope tied to
them with a bouy on the end of the rope.  Each fisherman has a different color bouy.
That is how they know where to look for their catch.  If the trap or cage moved
too much, they would not be able to locate their catch.

I asked about this before, and I believe the answer was that the ocean and tides are powerful enough to move shipwrecks.

Ships are made of solid wood or metal, hence they have resistence.
The traps or cages have free flow of water due to the material they are made of.

[Tamikosmom]

BTW, if that IS a body in the cage, and it isn't Natalee... who is it?

that really is the question, isn't it?

Hi sb 

I believe that is why Mos made his little statement yesterday or the day before.....
That all murder's in Aruba in the last five years had been solved.
He was not defending the Police Dept he was accounting for bodies.

whoa Magnolia, good thinking!

He really doesn't know what's been going on on Aruba now does he? What about Max DeVries? I guess they have it classified as an accident... but why keep the files from Yvonne? That makes no sense.And why didn't they really look at David Stacey (age 53 at the time) and his nutty 31 year old adopted son?

I can't see too many ways to get into a trap and out to sea unless it's murder. ---> that just me.

*BTW Max DeVries is missing from the south end of the island. 6 miles down range from where they were last seen and 6 miles out. So, it's highly unlikely it would be Max in that trap. *(if there is someone in there)*

It doesn't explain what happened to Buddy Larson or Gary Makings. Makings was supposedly scuba diving when he was last seen.

Another point I have been meaning to make - all of the people we know are missing does not take into account people we are unaware of or people unreported or people from South America.

Mos was called out to the Persistence.  He knows that a body...somebody's body....
was found.
The official announcement from Rudy Croes just said that the fabric did not match
Natalee's shirt that she was wearing.
Art Wood, on Dana's radio show, said that DNA was found.
There is a lot here that we don't know yet.
There is stuff happening because Kyle said that he knows what is happening
and doesn't have to guess.
The beach patrol officer that Destiny talked with last night said that things were
in a stew.

When I consider the enormous size of the trap/cage shown on the Dateline program ... I fail to comprehend why Tim Miller notified Dave Holloway prior to the dive that he was 99.9% sure the cage contained the remains of his daughter.

Does anybody know the approximate size of the trap/cage that was apparently reported stole from a Fishman's Hut on the morning that Natalee disappeared as well as the dimensions of the trap/cage that the crew of Persistance located?
Janet

++++++++


http://www.action3news.com/Global/story.asp?S=7929429&nav=menu550_2

FBI: fabric off Aruba not from Holloway
Associated Press - February 26, 2008 5:53 PM ET

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) -The FBI has finished testing a piece of fabric that was found in the waters off Aruba. And prosecutors say the tests showed the material didn't match clothing that had been worn by Natalee Holloway.

The fabric was found in January by Aruban divers in about 90 feet of water. They were looking for the body of the American teen who disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the island in May of 2005.

A statement says the FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, and that the results showed there was no match.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Gerold Dompig
'Scarborough Country'
October 25, 2005

DOMPIG: Well, that‘s basically the reason why we are looking at the ocean right now, because, although we don‘t have an official statement or declaration that a fishing trap has been missing, there are enough rumors out there that we—lead us to believe that maybe that is the case.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9827906/


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

VAN SUSTEREN: Alright you said DNA, this was found in a crab trap below the surface in the water right?

MILLER: It was in the water and Greta we was looking for a crab trap because we got reports that the night Natalee disappeared one of the fishermen's huts was broken into and a crab trap was stolen and I actually talked to a man there at the fishermen's huts, he verified about the hut being broken into and the crab trap being taken so it was really one of the things we was looking for. In fact Chief Dompig told me 2-1/2 years ago in October when we was at the landfill that we needed to be out in the water, and he felt as though Natalee was put in a crab trap or some type of container ...
Transcript - Heli (RU)


Dave Holloway
DATELINE
February 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4

[Ree]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

How does the FBI denial fit into this?

[Destiny]

Someone in the field of metals would be able to tell us or at least give an estimate as to how long that trap has been down there by looking at the corrision on it.I still don't see a small boat carrying it out to sea though unless the body was exchanged from a smaller boat onto a much bigger craft.If by chance it is Natalee,we can certainly rule out her being dumped the night in question though.This would have taken time to plan and get connections made.

From my sport diving experience...the growth on the trap is around 2-ish years....FWIW....and MOHO.

Thankyou Destiny! Would a trap this size move around on the bottom of the ocean due to currents or maybe bad storms?

That would depend on many variables....but with the size and weight...factor in the material it's made of....and that it is laying flat, on a flat bottom...and that water can run through it...I really don't see it moving any, if at all.  JMOO

I think you are right Destiny.  The traps are made to remain fairly stationary....even
the small ones.  When fishermen put the traps out, they have a nylon rope tied to
them with a bouy on the end of the rope.  Each fisherman has a different color bouy.
That is how they know where to look for their catch.  If the trap or cage moved
too much, they would not be able to locate their catch.

I asked about this before, and I believe the answer was that the ocean and tides are powerful enough to move shipwrecks.

Yes Blade
and it is true that violent weather can move objects...even very large objects...I was asked about my opinion regarding the trap in the photo from yesterday...that's all I gave was my opinion.

[JE]

Make that the last three paragraphs.

.

I believe it's an old article with a new date the sunday references the sunday on which yhe undercover tapes show aired in holland. It aired about 2 weeks after the wine incident