Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 - 2/29/08

[Rob]

Janet, the trap stolen from the huts could not have been more than three feet wide. It was in the hut and the door looks at the most to be three feet wide. I feel confidant that is one measurement of the three.

[JE]

BTW, if that IS a body in the cage, and it isn't Natalee... who is it?

that really is the question, isn't it?

Hi sb 

I believe that is why Mos made his little statement yesterday or the day before.....
That all murder's in Aruba in the last five years had been solved.
He was not defending the Police Dept he was accounting for bodies.

whoa Magnolia, good thinking!

He really doesn't know what's been going on on Aruba now does he? What about Max DeVries? I guess they have it classified as an accident... but why keep the files from Yvonne? That makes no sense.And why didn't they really look at David Stacey (age 53 at the time) and his nutty 31 year old adopted son?

I can't see too many ways to get into a trap and out to sea unless it's murder. ---> that just me.

*BTW Max DeVries is missing from the south end of the island. 6 miles down range from where they were last seen and 6 miles out. So, it's highly unlikely it would be Max in that trap. *(if there is someone in there)*

It doesn't explain what happened to Buddy Larson or Gary Makings. Makings was supposedly scuba diving when he was last seen.

Another point I have been meaning to make - all of the people we know are missing does not take into account people we are unaware of or people unreported or people from South America.

Mos was called out to the Persistence.  He knows that a body...somebody's body....
was found.
The official announcement from Rudy Croes just said that the fabric did not match
Natalee's shirt that she was wearing.
Art Wood, on Dana's radio show, said that DNA was found.
There is a lot here that we don't know yet.
There is stuff happening because Kyle said that he knows what is happening
and doesn't have to guess.
The beach patrol officer that Destiny talked with last night said that things were
in a stew.

When I consider the enormous size of the trap/cage shown on the Dateline program ... I fail to comprehend why Tim Miller notified Dave Holloway prior to the dive that he was 99.9% sure the cage contained the remains of his daughter.

Does anybody know the approximate size of the trap/cage that was apparently reported stole from a Fishman's Hut on the morning that Natalee disappeared as well as the dimensions of the trap/cage that the crew of Persistance located?
Janet

++++++++


http://www.action3news.com/Global/story.asp?S=7929429&nav=menu550_2

FBI: fabric off Aruba not from Holloway
Associated Press - February 26, 2008 5:53 PM ET

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) -The FBI has finished testing a piece of fabric that was found in the waters off Aruba. And prosecutors say the tests showed the material didn't match clothing that had been worn by Natalee Holloway.

The fabric was found in January by Aruban divers in about 90 feet of water. They were looking for the body of the American teen who disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the island in May of 2005.

A statement says the FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, and that the results showed there was no match.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Gerold Dompig
'Scarborough Country'
October 25, 2005

DOMPIG: Well, that‘s basically the reason why we are looking at the ocean right now, because, although we don‘t have an official statement or declaration that a fishing trap has been missing, there are enough rumors out there that we—lead us to believe that maybe that is the case.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9827906/


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

VAN SUSTEREN: Alright you said DNA, this was found in a crab trap below the surface in the water right?

MILLER: It was in the water and Greta we was looking for a crab trap because we got reports that the night Natalee disappeared one of the fishermen's huts was broken into and a crab trap was stolen and I actually talked to a man there at the fishermen's huts, he verified about the hut being broken into and the crab trap being taken so it was really one of the things we was looking for. In fact Chief Dompig told me 2-1/2 years ago in October when we was at the landfill that we needed to be out in the water, and he felt as though Natalee was put in a crab trap or some type of container ...
Transcript - Heli (RU)


Dave Holloway
DATELINE
February 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

It's on this page:http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

[martini]

Sadly the journalists in the Netherlands Antilles are not born here journalists~ thru poor education, the islands do not produce journalists with skills to be qualified applicants. Where do the journalists come from? They are brought in to the Netherlands Antilles by working permit, controlled and deported if they do not comply.

[Frank]

Wreck,

I think you are engaging in wishful thinking, as we all have, how many times?

We're to have faith in people who didn't plan on the public getting access? Huh? After what has transpired in this case and their REPEATED claims the media is interfering and now they didn't plan on pictures being distributed?

I can only engage in wishful thinking if they were trying to send a message to someone, but still, enough with the games.

The "authorities" are hiding something. Just as they have been since day one. Of all the things that this case has taught us, one of the basic ones is that whenever I hear the "media" being blamed, I know they are hiding something from us, from the family and it's not in the interest of Natalee.

NO BACKROOM plea bargains, that ship has sailed already.

I believe they have been working desperately to place some blame on Natalee and it's just unacceptable.

On what evidence were the security guards arrested?
Is it true there is no statement in the file from Joran until June 9th?
Did Paulus van der sloot search the internet for the effects of GHB?

How are answering these questions going to hurt the case. They're twisted logic somehow manifests into treating Aruba like it's a victim, it's not.

And the good people of Aruba don't care about Natalee at all, it's propaganda. They act like victims but never had any empathy for Beth, Dave and Natalee.

[truthseeker2]

Kalpoe Fingered Mickey and Abe ?

While the deepak e-mail and each Kalpoe PV indicates their implication of "a" security guard, the actual story of the Holiday Inn drop off and the particulars were cooked up, at least as we know and stated, in the car ride deepak and jvds took from hotel gambling back to sloot house on May 31, 2005 when paulus called jvds to return home, as there were people from Alabama at the sloot house looking for their missing daughter.  This is coroborated in other pv's I believe when deepak called his brother Satish, during this same car ride, to relay the details of the story, in case he was questioned.

During that same nite, an impromptu re-enactment of the drop off was role played at the entrance of the Holiday Inn, and both were involved (jvds, dk) -- including Paulus, who was reportedly coaching his son and glancing worriedly at the security cameras.  Those cameras produced the film that proved the whole drop off story was a lie.

It was Beth who reviewed the film, and she knew as of June 1 there was no drop off at all.

Yet, Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones were arrested -- based on this false story and false witness report -- 4 days later, on June 5, 2005.

The responsibility for this frame job can not be laid at the feet of the Kalpoe's alone.  Both jvds and Paulus were on scene and participated in the re-enactment of the false drop off story.  They were directly involved as well.

And a special note: the pv archive is missing the two "WITNESS" statements of jvds -- these would be the earliest statements he gave ALE.  I think most of us believe these are "missing" for a reason -- and that is to insulate jvds from his self-incriminating statements of bearing false witness and providing intentionally false testimony.  And other reasons too.

.

Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

My guess would be because Moe, Larry and Curly did not name the security guards specifically. They just gave a general description of a security guard...not two, just one. It was ALE and the prosecutor who 'identified' which security guards to go after. 

[klaasend]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

[caesu]

*snip*
I also, believe there are good Dutch people too.  They have families and just want the best for them and their world..just as we do here in America.  Cultural differences are hard to overcome...some impossible and have to remain that way.  Also, let's not forget the times suspicions have surfaced concerning many things on Aruba.  I know there are some new people that do not understand this and I see no way to get them up to speed at this moment.  I guess what I am asking is...let's not lose sight of the reason we are here....that is what is most important about all of us that reach from one corner of the earth to the other...Natalee Holloway...who is standing with me?

Most of us Dutchies are really good, normal people.  Just as most Americans are really good, normal people.
The thing is, is that there is a concentration of "bad" people in Aruba right now, people who don't feel the strict Dutch rules/laws apply to them on their Carribean "paradise" island. Bribable, corrupt people.
But that's... what... 100 (just guessing here...) people tops. Out of 16 million.
There's good and bad people everywhere in the world. It's just that Aruba has been the center of the SM's attention for the last 3 years that these 100 whatever Dutch people stand out right now, imo. But the rest of us are just kindhearted, honest people. 

Jo,  you are absolutely correct!  I personally appreciate all of our Dutch posters, who have brought so much here to help us in a way we didn't have before.  These attacks on ANYBODY here who are supporting justice, no matter WHERE they are from are just plain wrong!    I want to personally thank you and ALL the Dutch posters for what you have added to our discussions! 

that's also what i think.

aruba is used as the drainage ditch (sloot) for bad dutchies so they don't cause a scandal over here in the netherlands and the netherlands stays 'clean'. a very colonial attitude which a blame on our government over here.
and now with the unusual high concentration bad scum dutchies in aruba the impression seems to be that dutchies in general are bad.
combine that with the caricature of amsterdam like the drugs/sex capital of the world - which is far from reality, but most tourist go straight to the red light district, so that's the impression they get.

so i understand the possible misunderstanding.

i am amazed if i read about that law enforcement / judicial system there on aruba.
example is of course pvds. imagine if he managed to become a judge!!
aruba has to rely on the netherlands for judges and prosecutors because there is no law university on aruba - or is there?

so dutchies over here in the netherlands, they respect the law enforcement / judges - and so do i! (unlike jvds)
but we should not think the law enforcement on aruba is the same. most dutchies don't get that yet i reckon.
only look at the seperation of powers over there (rudy croes) and it is apparent that things are very wrong.

[private eye]

Obstruction of Justice

private eye writes: Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

Providing intentionally false testimony as WITNESS in a criminal matter is a crime.  The crime is called Obstruction of Justice.  In this case, the criminal acts are extended to include "conspiracy to obstruct justice" as both deepak and jvds willfully "conspired" to create a false story, and further conspired with Satish to do the same.

SM poster Rammstein, when questioned directly about this, claimed that once each of the 3 were named "SUSPECT,"  their previous criminal actions realted to their intentionally false testimony were superceded by the direct criminal charges of murder.  In a sense, this poster claims that there is a reachback immunity provision whereby previous criminal acts are offically ignored -- based on the Aruban convention of prosecuting for the most serious criminal offense possible under the law.  Therefore meaning that if the 3 were prosecuted for obstruction, they then could not be prosecuted for a more serious related offense: murder.

I don't believe this.

In fact, Arlene Ellis Schipper, when asked about this on air during an interview offered up instead an acknowledgement that obstructive acts likely occurred -- but that under Aruban law and given the age of the defendants -- that they would "receive only a couple of months in jail."

This response was evasive and off point.  It further attempts to change the subject with a poorly cast relative argument (we're dealing with rape and murder, why let them off with an obstruction charge?).

The actual point is that the three of them committed a crime for which there is undeniable evidence.  There is no question that each of the 3 main suspects committed obstruction of justice by providing intentionally false testimony as witnesses.  A proactive law enforcement and prosecutorial approach would have been to arrest and prosecute one of the Kalpoe brothers on obstruction, and during this investigation to interrogate him assertively in the hopes of obtaining material clues, evidence and statements about the other two, and about what happened.  This approach is used all over the world: we frequently see violent criminals initially held by police for lesser offenses, as an investigation gathers steam.

The failure to prosecute the 3 main suspects on obstruction charges (and Steve Croes, as well) is one of the strongest pieces of evidence of professional malfeasance and failure to perform offenses in the Aruban police department and prosecutorial branch.

It's disgusting, actually.

.

That charge is related to the harm to the investigation, but what about the intended harm and the actual harm to the 2 innocent men? And if Joran can file civil suits against Peter, why have those 2 men not filed suit against Paulus? Maybe our efforts should be directed towards helping those 2 men and the wife of Rene, the man who was beheaded.

 A Columbian necktie is a message of some sort, as is a man hanging himself and being found dead with his hand in his own pocket. It is physically impossible to hang one's self and keep one hand in your own pocket.

Does the neck mean to be quiet and the hand in the epocket mean to mind your own business?

A Colombian necktie, also known as the Italian necktie, Sicilian necktie, or Cuban necktie, is a method of execution where the victim's neck is slashed (with a knife or other sharp object) and their tongue is pulled out through the open wound. It was a popular method of killing during the Colombian history period called La Violencia that started in 1948 after the leader Jorge Eliecer Gaitan was murdered.

The Colombian Necktie is sometimes erroneously credited as having been invented by drug kingpin Pablo Escobar, but this infamous method of killing was already present since 1950, during La Violencia in Colombia's civil war, it was performed on enemies as psychological warfare meant to scare and intimidate those who later encountered the body

Whats with the hand in the pocket after hanging ones self ? That simply is impossible to do. Someone has to set the hand in the pocket afterwards.

Pocket: financial means; money supply.
Pocketed; to take possesion of for oneself, especially dishonestly.
In one's pocket; in one's power, influence, or possession.
In pocket; having funds.

or to keep your hands to yourself and stay out of our business

[JE]

Kalpoe Fingered Mickey and Abe ?

While the deepak e-mail and each Kalpoe PV indicates their implication of "a" security guard, the actual story of the Holiday Inn drop off and the particulars were cooked up, at least as we know and stated, in the car ride deepak and jvds took from hotel gambling back to sloot house on May 31, 2005 when paulus called jvds to return home, as there were people from Alabama at the sloot house looking for their missing daughter.  This is coroborated in other pv's I believe when deepak called his brother Satish, during this same car ride, to relay the details of the story, in case he was questioned.

During that same nite, an impromptu re-enactment of the drop off was role played at the entrance of the Holiday Inn, and both were involved (jvds, dk) -- including Paulus, who was reportedly coaching his son and glancing worriedly at the security cameras.  Those cameras produced the film that proved the whole drop off story was a lie.

It was Beth who reviewed the film, and she knew as of June 1 there was no drop off at all.

Yet, Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones were arrested -- based on this false story and false witness report -- 4 days later, on June 5, 2005.

The responsibility for this frame job can not be laid at the feet of the Kalpoe's alone.  Both jvds and Paulus were on scene and participated in the re-enactment of the false drop off story.  They were directly involved as well.

And a special note: the pv archive is missing the two "WITNESS" statements of jvds -- these would be the earliest statements he gave ALE.  I think most of us believe these are "missing" for a reason -- and that is to insulate jvds from his self-incriminating statements of bearing false witness and providing intentionally false testimony.  And other reasons too.

.

Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

My guess would be because Moe, Larry and Curly did not name the security guards specifically. They just gave a general description of a security guard...not two, just one. It was ALE and the prosecutor who 'identified' which security guards to go after. 

I believe it says somewhere in the pv's that deepak brought up the security guard bit, while the whole group was talking to the woman at the desk in the holiday inn, the night Beth first got to aruba.

[dennisintn]

Kalpoe Fingered Mickey and Abe ?

While the deepak e-mail and each Kalpoe PV indicates their implication of "a" security guard, the actual story of the Holiday Inn drop off and the particulars were cooked up, at least as we know and stated, in the car ride deepak and jvds took from hotel gambling back to sloot house on May 31, 2005 when paulus called jvds to return home, as there were people from Alabama at the sloot house looking for their missing daughter.  This is coroborated in other pv's I believe when deepak called his brother Satish, during this same car ride, to relay the details of the story, in case he was questioned.

During that same nite, an impromptu re-enactment of the drop off was role played at the entrance of the Holiday Inn, and both were involved (jvds, dk) -- including Paulus, who was reportedly coaching his son and glancing worriedly at the security cameras.  Those cameras produced the film that proved the whole drop off story was a lie.

It was Beth who reviewed the film, and she knew as of June 1 there was no drop off at all.

Yet, Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones were arrested -- based on this false story and false witness report -- 4 days later, on June 5, 2005.

The responsibility for this frame job can not be laid at the feet of the Kalpoe's alone.  Both jvds and Paulus were on scene and participated in the re-enactment of the false drop off story.  They were directly involved as well.

And a special note: the pv archive is missing the two "WITNESS" statements of jvds -- these would be the earliest statements he gave ALE.  I think most of us believe these are "missing" for a reason -- and that is to insulate jvds from his self-incriminating statements of bearing false witness and providing intentionally false testimony.  And other reasons too.

.

Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

My guess would be because Moe, Larry and Curly did not name the security guards specifically. They just gave a general description of a security guard...not two, just one. It was ALE and the prosecutor who 'identified' which security guards to go after. 

perhaps the guards were fingered by the holiday in resident drug dealer, boeti, bil of dompig.
dennisintn

[Destiny]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

The fishing/crab trap we saw in the photos posted yesterday, could very easily be taken out and dropped by any commercial fishing boat...or a coast guard type boat...as these kinks of boats usually have winches on board...

[klaasend]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

The fishing/crab trap we saw in the photos posted yesterday, could very easily be taken out and dropped by any commercial fishing boat...or a coast guard type boat...as these kinks of boats usually have winches on board...

Destiny - yes, I agree but the trap we saw appears to be way larger than the one they were looking for, IMO.

[private eye]

Someone in the field of metals would be able to tell us or at least give an estimate as to how long that trap has been down there by looking at the corrision on it.I still don't see a small boat carrying it out to sea though unless the body was exchanged from a smaller boat onto a much bigger craft.If by chance it is Natalee,we can certainly rule out her being dumped the night in question though.This would have taken time to plan and get connections made.

From my sport diving experience...the growth on the trap is around 2-ish years....FWIW....and MOHO.

Thankyou Destiny! Would a trap this size move around on the bottom of the ocean due to currents or maybe bad storms?

That would depend on many variables....but with the size and weight...factor in the material it's made of....and that it is laying flat, on a flat bottom...and that water can run through it...I really don't see it moving any, if at all.  JMOO

I think you are right Destiny.  The traps are made to remain fairly stationary....even
the small ones.  When fishermen put the traps out, they have a nylon rope tied to
them with a bouy on the end of the rope.  Each fisherman has a different color bouy.
That is how they know where to look for their catch.  If the trap or cage moved
too much, they would not be able to locate their catch.

I asked about this before, and I believe the answer was that the ocean and tides are powerful enough to move shipwrecks.

A crab cage is a different story though because of the pourous walls, floors and ceilings. Some movement not a lot

[wreck]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

wreck - I agree if that is Natalee. She's in the wrong trap. But why continue to raise funds? keeping up appearances in this case would mean people donating money some can not afford to give.

btw - good thinking 

Why continue to raise funds? Because they are already WAY in the hole AND it further helps their "cover" story.

[wreck]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

How does the FBI denial fit into this?

Just where did you see an OFFICIAL FBI denial?

[Destiny]

Does anyone know what the *back* the heel part of Joran's missing tennies looks like...sorry, I can't remember the name of them or I'd google it...Swiss-somethings...TIA

[Tamikosmom]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

Thank you Klaas.

The dimensions of the trap/cage provided by Hodges does not begin to the reflect the enormous size of the trap/cage show on the Dateline program.  The divers were dwarfed in comparision.  Maybe the underground images were distorted.

Again ... I asked.  Why was Tim Miller 99.9% sure prior to the dive that Natalee Holloway's remains were in that huge cage?

Maybe Dana could have Tim Miller as a guest on his show and ... some of our questions regarding the confusion encompassing this "find" by the crew of the Persistance could be answered.

Janet

[Tater]

BTW, if that IS a body in the cage, and it isn't Natalee... who is it?

that really is the question, isn't it?

Hi sb 

I believe that is why Mos made his little statement yesterday or the day before.....
That all murder's in Aruba in the last five years had been solved.
He was not defending the Police Dept he was accounting for bodies.

whoa Magnolia, good thinking!

He really doesn't know what's been going on on Aruba now does he? What about Max DeVries? I guess they have it classified as an accident... but why keep the files from Yvonne? That makes no sense.And why didn't they really look at David Stacey (age 53 at the time) and his nutty 31 year old adopted son?

I can't see too many ways to get into a trap and out to sea unless it's murder. ---> that just me.

*BTW Max DeVries is missing from the south end of the island. 6 miles down range from where they were last seen and 6 miles out. So, it's highly unlikely it would be Max in that trap. *(if there is someone in there)*

It doesn't explain what happened to Buddy Larson or Gary Makings. Makings was supposedly scuba diving when he was last seen.

Another point I have been meaning to make - all of the people we know are missing does not take into account people we are unaware of or people unreported or people from South America.

Mos was called out to the Persistence.  He knows that a body...somebody's body....
was found.
The official announcement from Rudy Croes just said that the fabric did not match
Natalee's shirt that she was wearing.
Art Wood, on Dana's radio show, said that DNA was found.
There is a lot here that we don't know yet.
There is stuff happening because Kyle said that he knows what is happening
and doesn't have to guess.
The beach patrol officer that Destiny talked with last night said that things were
in a stew.

When I consider the enormous size of the trap/cage shown on the Dateline program ... I fail to comprehend why Tim Miller notified Dave Holloway prior to the dive that he was 99.9% sure the cage contained the remains of his daughter.

Does anybody know the approximate size of the trap/cage that was apparently reported stole from a Fishman's Hut on the morning that Natalee disappeared as well as the dimensions of the trap/cage that the crew of Persistance located?
Janet

++++++++


http://www.action3news.com/Global/story.asp?S=7929429&nav=menu550_2

FBI: fabric off Aruba not from Holloway
Associated Press - February 26, 2008 5:53 PM ET

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) -The FBI has finished testing a piece of fabric that was found in the waters off Aruba. And prosecutors say the tests showed the material didn't match clothing that had been worn by Natalee Holloway.

The fabric was found in January by Aruban divers in about 90 feet of water. They were looking for the body of the American teen who disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the island in May of 2005.

A statement says the FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, and that the results showed there was no match.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Gerold Dompig
'Scarborough Country'
October 25, 2005

DOMPIG: Well, that‘s basically the reason why we are looking at the ocean right now, because, although we don‘t have an official statement or declaration that a fishing trap has been missing, there are enough rumors out there that we—lead us to believe that maybe that is the case.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9827906/


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

VAN SUSTEREN: Alright you said DNA, this was found in a crab trap below the surface in the water right?

MILLER: It was in the water and Greta we was looking for a crab trap because we got reports that the night Natalee disappeared one of the fishermen's huts was broken into and a crab trap was stolen and I actually talked to a man there at the fishermen's huts, he verified about the hut being broken into and the crab trap being taken so it was really one of the things we was looking for. In fact Chief Dompig told me 2-1/2 years ago in October when we was at the landfill that we needed to be out in the water, and he felt as though Natalee was put in a crab trap or some type of container ...
Transcript - Heli (RU)


Dave Holloway
DATELINE
February 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

It's on this page:http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

Thankyou for this link JE. Wow!!! So much more understanding and the part about Deepak is enlightening for sure...

[Rob]

Is this the ship? Carpe and I have been wondering about this boat from the Aru-Bay video series. Also, IIRC there is another ship in one of the videos and we might have a picture of it somewhere. I'm going to look for that or make a new screen capture of it when I look through the videos.

[ala_gunslinger]

Fellow Primates,

I don't post much.  Just try to stay out of the way.  Lately, I should say 'fray.'  Anyway, I feel the need to speak. 

Red, much respect and admiration for all you have done for Natalee, her family, their plight.  Indeed you know so much more than any of us here, including those on the Persistence.  Likewise, there are people, good people, on that ship that no doubt know things you do not know.  In fact, there is good reason for each to know aspects of this case the other party is not privy to.  That is not cause for attack.  The Persistence has spent alot of money in their quest for answers, just as you have, as well as many others.  Some have given only time, for that is all they have.  Some have given only money because they have no extra time.  Some have only offered prayers, for that is all they can currently provide.  The respective gifts each have brought are no less valuable than the gifts others have contributed.  God has a master plan.  Will we all get to see it in our lifetime?  We don't know that yet.  But He brought us all together, each with our own unique contributions, for His purpose.  Let's not get down and dirty and feel like what one has done is more important than what someone else has done.  Yes, the internet has been instrumental in keeping this case on the forefront, but it is also a double edged sword that has hindered aspects of it too.  No doubt Beth has had to keep from throwing up when she has had to cozy up to some of the press to keep the story out there.  We do what we have to.

OceanExplorer, you as well as everyone on the Persistence are invaluable to say the very least.  Men willing to donate time, services, boats, personal fortunes, my goodness - the list is endless.  For more than a year I prayed for someone to come forward to do, to provide, what each of you have willingly offered.  Again, God has brought us all together for his purpose.  While I am thrilled Dateline had their show, I had hoped nothing would have been televised until after y'all were done with God's work and had safely returned home.  But He apparently had another plan.  We still don't know that plan, but it is exciting to see his handiwork. 

Clearly Aruba has done some terrible things, but I don't think we should make blanket assumptions that everyone on the island is vile.  Evil comes in all sizes, shapes and colors.  Evil does not discriminate. 

As for racism, it is a concept I have never been able to wrap my head around.  I have never been able to understand it.  I have never been able to be a party to it.  We all want and have the same goals for our families, our loved ones.  We want and need safety, security, housing, clothes, food, education, etc.  Please don't ever look at the color of one's skin and decide their intentions based on shade, or say, "remember when" . . . just try to look at people like a pack of Juicy Fruit gum.  All those colorful sticks and flavors happily wrapped in one package and lo and behold - they all taste great!

I don't know any of you personally, but I can honestly say that because God loves me and Christ died for me and has forgiven me, I love all of you.  No exceptions!

We are ALL part of the Human Race!