Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 - 2/29/08

[truthseeker2]

Kalpoe Fingered Mickey and Abe ?

While the deepak e-mail and each Kalpoe PV indicates their implication of "a" security guard, the actual story of the Holiday Inn drop off and the particulars were cooked up, at least as we know and stated, in the car ride deepak and jvds took from hotel gambling back to sloot house on May 31, 2005 when paulus called jvds to return home, as there were people from Alabama at the sloot house looking for their missing daughter.  This is coroborated in other pv's I believe when deepak called his brother Satish, during this same car ride, to relay the details of the story, in case he was questioned.

During that same nite, an impromptu re-enactment of the drop off was role played at the entrance of the Holiday Inn, and both were involved (jvds, dk) -- including Paulus, who was reportedly coaching his son and glancing worriedly at the security cameras.  Those cameras produced the film that proved the whole drop off story was a lie.

It was Beth who reviewed the film, and she knew as of June 1 there was no drop off at all.

Yet, Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones were arrested -- based on this false story and false witness report -- 4 days later, on June 5, 2005.

The responsibility for this frame job can not be laid at the feet of the Kalpoe's alone.  Both jvds and Paulus were on scene and participated in the re-enactment of the false drop off story.  They were directly involved as well.

And a special note: the pv archive is missing the two "WITNESS" statements of jvds -- these would be the earliest statements he gave ALE.  I think most of us believe these are "missing" for a reason -- and that is to insulate jvds from his self-incriminating statements of bearing false witness and providing intentionally false testimony.  And other reasons too.

.

Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

My guess would be because Moe, Larry and Curly did not name the security guards specifically. They just gave a general description of a security guard...not two, just one. It was ALE and the prosecutor who 'identified' which security guards to go after. 

I believe it says somewhere in the pv's that deepak brought up the security guard bit, while the whole group was talking to the woman at the desk in the holiday inn, the night Beth first got to aruba.

Yes, but he did not name them.  He described a security guard and what that person was wearing.  One mistake was made in that regard.  Deepak's description did not match the uniforms worn by security at HI.  It did, however, match the uniforms worn by security (or former security) at the Allegro.   Interesting.........

Either way, the arrest of those two guys would not be a criminal act based on lies told by any of the three suspects. At least not a crime you could pin on Deepak. He did not name them, nor did he specifically describe THEM.  ALE and the Prosecutor are to blame for those false arrests.  And they knew they were wrong.  imo.

[JE]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

Thank you Klaas.

The dimensions of the trap/cage provided by Hodges does not begin to the reflect the enormous size of the trap/cage show on the Dateline program.  The divers were dwarfed in comparision.  Maybe the underground images were distorted.

That puzzles me too. On the Andrew Hodges site it also says that they had a duplicate cage made and planned to submerge it so that they would have a clear image of the sonar signature of that cage.

[Destiny]

Janet - from Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

Thank you Klaas.

The dimensions of the trap/cage provided by Hodges does not begin to the reflect the enormous size of the trap/cage show on the Dateline program.  The divers were dwarfed in comparision.  Maybe the underground images were distorted.

Again ... I asked.  Why was Tim Miller 99.9% sure prior to the dive that Natalee Holloway's remains were in that huge cage?

Maybe Dana could have Tim Miller as a guest on his show and ... some of our questions regarding the confusion encompassing this "find" by the crew of the Persistance could be answered.

Janet

Janet...I can very easily see Natalee being transferred in the smaller trap, in a smaller boat...to a larger boat with the larger trap for dropping off farther out...that would give the smaller boat a way to drop over the side if any other boats came near...and the larger trap would not run the risk of ever being swept closer to land by rough seas...yeah I know...time for more coffee....

[Rob]

Found a better shot of the same ship

[ala_gunslinger]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

I pray you are right!

[JE]

Kalpoe Fingered Mickey and Abe ?

While the deepak e-mail and each Kalpoe PV indicates their implication of "a" security guard, the actual story of the Holiday Inn drop off and the particulars were cooked up, at least as we know and stated, in the car ride deepak and jvds took from hotel gambling back to sloot house on May 31, 2005 when paulus called jvds to return home, as there were people from Alabama at the sloot house looking for their missing daughter.  This is coroborated in other pv's I believe when deepak called his brother Satish, during this same car ride, to relay the details of the story, in case he was questioned.

During that same nite, an impromptu re-enactment of the drop off was role played at the entrance of the Holiday Inn, and both were involved (jvds, dk) -- including Paulus, who was reportedly coaching his son and glancing worriedly at the security cameras.  Those cameras produced the film that proved the whole drop off story was a lie.

It was Beth who reviewed the film, and she knew as of June 1 there was no drop off at all.

Yet, Mickey Johns and Abraham Jones were arrested -- based on this false story and false witness report -- 4 days later, on June 5, 2005.

The responsibility for this frame job can not be laid at the feet of the Kalpoe's alone.  Both jvds and Paulus were on scene and participated in the re-enactment of the false drop off story.  They were directly involved as well.

And a special note: the pv archive is missing the two "WITNESS" statements of jvds -- these would be the earliest statements he gave ALE.  I think most of us believe these are "missing" for a reason -- and that is to insulate jvds from his self-incriminating statements of bearing false witness and providing intentionally false testimony.  And other reasons too.

.

Why was that not a crime worthy of prosecution? The intent and the possibility of causing harm were great and they did cause a lot of harm, actual, to the investigation and to the 2 security guards.

My guess would be because Moe, Larry and Curly did not name the security guards specifically. They just gave a general description of a security guard...not two, just one. It was ALE and the prosecutor who 'identified' which security guards to go after. 

I believe it says somewhere in the pv's that deepak brought up the security guard bit, while the whole group was talking to the woman at the desk in the holiday inn, the night Beth first got to aruba.

Yes, but he did not name them.  He described a security guard and what that person was wearing.  One mistake was made in that regard.  Deepak's description did not match the uniforms worn by security at HI.  It did, however, match the uniforms worn by security (or former security) at the Allegro.   Interesting.........

Either way, the arrest of those two guys would not be a criminal act based on lies told by any of the three suspects. At least not a crime you could pin on Deepak. He did not name them, nor did he specifically describe THEM.  ALE and the Prosecutor are to blame for those false arrests.  And they knew they were wrong.  imo.

I think he only talked about one security guard. (not sure srry) So why did they arrest two?

[Tater]

Found a better shot of the same ship

I don't think that ship was taped for no reason.I've always felt those tapes were made for a reason and the person that made them knows the complete story.JMO

[bc73]

Destiny, having major computer issues, but K-Swiss is the brand. Usually white leather with 4 stripes...

[Destiny]

Found a better shot of the same ship

I don't think that ship was taped for no reason.I've always felt those tapes were made for a reason and the person that made them knows the complete story.JMO

Makes me think of the story about the columbian drug runners, who were said to have taken Natalee out for dropping off at sea....hmmmmmmm

[Destiny]

Destiny, having major computer issues, but K-Swiss is the brand. Usually white leather with 4 stripes...

Thank You!

[ala_gunslinger]

OMG!   

Caesu said 'reckon'!!!!!!

Congrats!  You are learnin the Kings English!  As in Elvis!

[littlebuddy598]

I  could have sworn, when the dateline showed the divers, that one of them DID put his thumb up then put it down.

[klaasend]

Does anyone know what the *back* the heel part of Joran's missing tennies looks like...sorry, I can't remember the name of them or I'd google it...Swiss-somethings...TIA

[klaasend]

Rob - so I don't have to go searching through all the videos, which one is that?  Which aru-bay video number..I remember that ship and when you emailed me that's the first thing I thought of 

[Observer]

I posted some of what I know earlier today about the Tele-Aruba Reporter and I have no idea how to reach her Camera-Mans Family as they are from Colombia or Venezuela. Her Family is very suspicious,shocked and extremely hurt but they do not know very much or have any proof if she was murdered and why. They are from Holland and they did not receive anything from the ALE as the cop that handled the case called in sick the entire time they were in Aruba and they left with nothing. I showed them what Jossy told us after her death and they said it was 100% lies. They were treated horribly and they too want answers but they are simple people without the means to do anything.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357363#msg357363

JE...here is a link with info on the journalist and the camerman.Post 85

******* has a lot more info on this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1291.80

[the big hammer]

Gottenbos Sea Pro

klaasend writes: The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage.

The beam of the trailered Gottenbos Sea Pro would be 8 feet.  This measurement is taken from hull fiberglass exterior, there would be about 8 inches each port and starboard on the boat interior for padding/cushions and gunwhale.  Leaves 6 feet 6 inches of open cockpit to fit the trap length wise (5 1/2 feet).

See model 196 CC (20 footer, center console).  http://www.seaproboats.com/interface.html

The cage would fit -- but it would be tight.  Estimated weight: 200 lbs.  Two men could manage it, and it would be like a third passenger.  The weight of the cage loaded: 400 lbs: with a body and weighted.

The stern would drag a bit and a boat this size would likely not venture where Persistence has sailed often in the open sea ( 6-8 ft prevailing seas, winds steady at 15 knots with conditions frequently worse).  About 2 miles off the beach, I would guess.

.

[dennisintn]

I'm going to dig a bigger hole for myself as I think few are following what i'm saying.
1) The Persistence in all likelihood has found Natalee in the trap.
2) They really did not want to expose this just yet. Why? Because they still need to "prove" the "whys" and "hows". They have a better chance of accomplishing this if the actual "perps" aren't "clued in."
3) Why the "Dateline" irregularities? Because "Dateline" was already on board and they had to keep up "appearances" so they could continue with their "plan."
4) The posting of the pics on the internet put a severe cramp in their plans.
5) Why is trap so big? Because the body disposal did not happen that night as in Joran's story. Her body was put there at least a few days later by a bigger boat involving a larger cover-up. This why they did not reveal their "finding" yet. They want to find out who has that bigger boat.

Once again -- my opinion.

We have waited 3 years -- hold on -- we're almost there!

wreck - I agree if that is Natalee. She's in the wrong trap. But why continue to raise funds? keeping up appearances in this case would mean people donating money some can not afford to give.

btw - good thinking 

Why continue to raise funds? Because they are already WAY in the hole AND it further helps their "cover" story.

just because mos says there are no unsolved murders on the island doesn't mean he doesn't know of several "vanished" people that might show up like this.  we know of two such vanishments.  max devries and the diver.  both american, neither ever found, as far as we know.
dennisintn

[caesu]

OMG!   

Caesu said 'reckon'!!!!!!

Congrats!  You are learnin the Kings English!  As in Elvis!

yes i thought should i use that word or not. 
it is more used in australian.

[Rob]

Found a better shot of the same ship

I don't think that ship was taped for no reason.I've always felt those tapes were made for a reason and the person that made them knows the complete story.JMO

here is the Arubay video that the ship is in

http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=4099719971643396692

[Nut44x4]

Steve Croes at Ladies Night Senor Frogs 2-27-08