Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 - 2/29/08

[Shell]

I admit, I skipped ahead and did not read some pages of this thread. Can someone tell me if it has been determined if Joran is in a mental hospital? I was thinking today, maybe he is really in a rehab facility.

[bleachedblack]

You mean to tell me that the Monkeys have not dug up a copy of Mos's press release about this yet?  I find this hard to believe.

LOL I know Janet had to have it somewhere.....

[WhiskeyGirl]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. -  Benjamin Disraeli (popularized in the U.S. by Mark Twain)

[Observer]

PRETZER: Jossy, TES asked about the painted rocks. Visibility Team was painting supposedly because they found a 7-year-old boy. What are the painted rocks about, and was that plastic bag ever analyzed?

Art: Don't know, have looked at painted rocks and bag video. Also natural bridge area. A 7-year-old child was found in the dunes, I believe was found prior to Natalee's disappearance. Person says he took video June 10-11 of 2005. Video could be critical piece of evidence. Have talked to Dave to talk to his FBI sources about this. Is about 50 yards from dunes where Art found the belt, also area where Dave say the Police car on June 2 where they slammed the trunk without talking to him . Dave and Art met with the Prime Minister and the assistant prosecutor who quit the case Analyses (?) Flanagan - they were impressed with her, but she quit the case. They met with her for hours late at night (she had the permission of the attorney general). They explained that they wanted the prosecution team replaced. She told them that she saw the testimony of Koen Gottenbos who she said concocted a story that he had a tennis match with Joran at the tennis club. Was found to be a lie, she wanted re-interviewed but Police and KJ resisted him being re-interviewed. Word by students was that they borrowed Koen family boat on May 30. Also had solid evidence from friends of the Gottenbos' , that Koen was ready to crack. He was afraid of being arrested, slept with mother as afraid. They went to Dompig to try to get interviewed. Koen's father who got a lawyer and Koen was not interviewed.

[AZLady]

I believe the fabric of Natalee's blouse washed up on shore that summer.  I saw the pics up close and worked on enhancing them.  I was actually puzzled by Mos' declaration that the fabric did not match Natalee's clothing.  Did he expect it to match her clothing?  I didn't.  Frankly, I doubt Natalee had her clothing on when she was dumped at sea.  She wore very little clothing when she got into that car with Joran and the Kalpoes--a sleeveless summer shirt, denim skirt, panties.  That's it.  Then, she was gang raped by the three, maybe more.  I really do not believe she had clothing on when she was dumped and I would be surprised if a body were found with her clothing around it.  So, when Mos said the fabric did not match her clothing, my thought was, "Of course it didn't."  The fabric was probably something wrapped around her, like a blanket or towel, or maybe it was fabric from something like Joran's shoe.  Who knows?  But I didn't expect it to be her clothing and was surprised when Mos made that statement.

[Nut44x4]

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media

From The Public Prosecutor’s Office

Date February 26, 2007

Pages 1

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.
 
 
 
 

[klaasend]

You mean to tell me that the Monkeys have not dug up a copy of Mos's press release about this yet?  I find this hard to believe.

You mean about what was found?  Posted a couple days ago.

[Peaches]

Ocean,
In Mos' last new conference he said that all murders in
Aruba in the last five years had been solved.
He was not defending the Justice Dept, he was
accounting for any bodies that were/have been found.

How hard would it be to classify a death or disappearance on Aruba as a murder?

Practice seems to have made perfect.

If a death were suspicious, and there was no conviction of someone, would they call it a murder?  Or a death for unknown unclassified reason? 

No, that would be "natural causes".

What about those people that just disappear?  What people?

How is someone accounting for all the bodies that are found?  Suicide? 

Alot of people are stressed out.  They commit suicide.

Why would someone put a body in a crab trap?  Maybe that was someone's last wish?

Many people on the island posses the last wish to want to sleep with the fishes.

My answers in red here.

[Lala'sMom]

We have been struggling with this in the Shango thread today...it concerns this particular person's statements and a request for something to be returned.  By any chance, does anyone have any idea who this person is and what ALE could have taken from them that they would want returned? Could this man have been an attorney? Why would he be asking for a "suspects belongings"?  Does this mean he was a suspect? Anyone have any ideas? TIA


Responsive to Request 41
+ Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Date: 21 June 2005 / 14:20
Pages: 2
Writer/Initiator: Juan Boezem / Johny Erasmus
Description: witness statement

Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Name/Title: Reply on request to return suspects belongings
Date: 20 October 2005
Pa.gcs: 1
Writer/Initiator: J.M.A.M. Ponsioen


This was Caps response when asked what a request 41 was...

Art.41

This article deals with the question in how far an offence committed in the Netherlands under the influence of alcohol or other drugs can be imputed to the offender. Unlike many other countries the Dutch Penal Code does not contain specific provisions with respect to the criminal liability of addicted or intoxicated offenders. In principle, they are held responsible for their offences, even when the dolus or culpa is absent at the moment they commit their offence. Doctrine and jurisprudence found this liability on the principle of 'culpa/dolus in causa', by accepting an anterior dolus or culpa, which is situated at the moment the offender takes alcohol or other drugs. As is shown in this article, the - nondogmatic - interpretation of this culpa in causa doctrine leaves hardly any space for a claim to impunity.

[Peaches]

I admit, I skipped ahead and did not read some pages of this thread. Can someone tell me if it has been determined if Joran is in a mental hospital? I was thinking today, maybe he is really in a rehab facility.

As usual, Shell, depends on who you ask.

[WhiskeyGirl]

From Janet - http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.520

Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2007

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

[Blue Moon]

I believe the fabric of Natalee's blouse washed up on shore that summer.  I saw the pics up close and worked on enhancing them.  I was actually puzzled by Mos' declaration that the fabric did not match Natalee's clothing.  Did he expect it to match her clothing?  I didn't.  Frankly, I doubt Natalee had her clothing on when she was dumped at sea.  She wore very little clothing when she got into that car with Joran and the Kalpoes--a sleeveless summer shirt, denim skirt, panties.  That's it.  Then, she was gang raped by the three, maybe more.  I really do not believe she had clothing on when she was dumped and I would be surprised if a body were found with her clothing around it.  So, when Mos said the fabric did not match her clothing, my thought was, "Of course it didn't."  The fabric was probably something wrapped around her, like a blanket or towel, or maybe it was fabric from something like Joran's shoe.  Who knows?  But I didn't expect it to be her clothing and was surprised when Mos made that statement.

Maybe, just maybe, this was a message that they found someone's clothing or shoes

[oceanexploration]

You mean to tell me that the Monkeys have not dug up a copy of Mos's press release about this yet?  I find this hard to believe.

You mean about what was found?  Posted a couple days ago.

Klaasend thank you.. I figured you had it.  I was just making sure, else I would post it.  It's what the media is reporting from.  I like reading original statements before they're re-written by the press.  But that's just me.

[Peaches]

I believe the fabric of Natalee's blouse washed up on shore that summer.  I saw the pics up close and worked on enhancing them.  I was actually puzzled by Mos' declaration that the fabric did not match Natalee's clothing.  Did he expect it to match her clothing?  I didn't.  Frankly, I doubt Natalee had her clothing on when she was dumped at sea.  She wore very little clothing when she got into that car with Joran and the Kalpoes--a sleeveless summer shirt, denim skirt, panties.  That's it.  Then, she was gang raped by the three, maybe more.  I really do not believe she had clothing on when she was dumped and I would be surprised if a body were found with her clothing around it.  So, when Mos said the fabric did not match her clothing, my thought was, "Of course it didn't."  The fabric was probably something wrapped around her, like a blanket or towel, or maybe it was fabric from something like Joran's shoe.  Who knows?  But I didn't expect it to be her clothing and was surprised when Mos made that statement.

Ever the voice of reason.  I agree.  I wasn't surprised for exactly the reasons you outlined so well.

[klaasend]

We have been struggling with this in the Shango thread today...it concerns this particular person's statements and a request for something to be returned.  By any chance, does anyone have any idea who this person is and what ALE could have taken from them that they would want returned? Could this man have been an attorney? Why would he be asking for a "suspects belongings"?  Does this mean he was a suspect? Anyone have any ideas? TIA


Responsive to Request 41
+ Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Date: 21 June 2005 / 14:20
Pages: 2
Writer/Initiator: Juan Boezem / Johny Erasmus
Description: witness statement

Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Name/Title: Reply on request to return suspects belongings
Date: 20 October 2005
Pa.gcs: 1
Writer/Initiator: J.M.A.M. Ponsioen


This was Caps response when asked what a request 41 was...

Art.41

This article deals with the question in how far an offence committed in the Netherlands under the influence of alcohol or other drugs can be imputed to the offender. Unlike many other countries the Dutch Penal Code does not contain specific provisions with respect to the criminal liability of addicted or intoxicated offenders. In principle, they are held responsible for their offences, even when the dolus or culpa is absent at the moment they commit their offence. Doctrine and jurisprudence found this liability on the principle of 'culpa/dolus in causa', by accepting an anterior dolus or culpa, which is situated at the moment the offender takes alcohol or other drugs. As is shown in this article, the - nondogmatic - interpretation of this culpa in causa doctrine leaves hardly any space for a claim to impunity.

Are you sure that "request 41" isn't the request number in the Dr. Phil motion to compel? 

[AZLady]

What I do find strange is that Mos only references clothing or cloth in his press release.  He does not mention anything else found in the trap or whether the FBI was asked to process the other contents of the trap. 

[Buckeye]

You mean to tell me that the Monkeys have not dug up a copy of Mos's press release about this yet?  I find this hard to believe.

Mos is easy.  The FBI report is difficult.  If the real reports and rulings were actually posted, there would be a lot less speculation regarding truth vs. propaganda. The island always seems to give interpretations and not the real deal.   

[AZLady]

Ocean, was there something other than cloth in the trap?  Was the FBI asked to process something other than cloth?  If so, are the results known and can they be shared?

[Peaches]

Someone posted something the other day, some government regulations or something that had "articles".  I remember seeing it.  It was long and complicated but I understand Article 41.  It means being stoned isn't a good defense.  IMO

[Magnolia]

We have been struggling with this in the Shango thread today...it concerns this particular person's statements and a request for something to be returned.  By any chance, does anyone have any idea who this person is and what ALE could have taken from them that they would want returned? Could this man have been an attorney? Why would he be asking for a "suspects belongings"?  Does this mean he was a suspect? Anyone have any ideas? TIA


Responsive to Request 41
+ Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Date: 21 June 2005 / 14:20
Pages: 2
Writer/Initiator: Juan Boezem / Johny Erasmus
Description: witness statement

Name: Jorge Porras Sanches
Name/Title: Reply on request to return suspects belongings
Date: 20 October 2005
Pa.gcs: 1
Writer/Initiator: J.M.A.M. Ponsioen


This was Caps response when asked what a request 41 was...

Art.41

This article deals with the question in how far an offence committed in the Netherlands under the influence of alcohol or other drugs can be imputed to the offender. Unlike many other countries the Dutch Penal Code does not contain specific provisions with respect to the criminal liability of addicted or intoxicated offenders. In principle, they are held responsible for their offences, even when the dolus or culpa is absent at the moment they commit their offence. Doctrine and jurisprudence found this liability on the principle of 'culpa/dolus in causa', by accepting an anterior dolus or culpa, which is situated at the moment the offender takes alcohol or other drugs. As is shown in this article, the - nondogmatic - interpretation of this culpa in causa doctrine leaves hardly any space for a claim to impunity.

Are you sure that "request 41" isn't the request number in the Dr. Phil motion to compel? 

   
I know one of the Kalpoes' attorneys filed a motion to have belongings returned.