Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 - 3/1/08

[Rob]

Yes, many of us watched the fabric swatch turned loose into the wind in the original video of that.  Then later, it was left off the end.

And for some reason, the cameraman seemed particularly focused on it as well as though he, too, recognized it as a part of Natalee's clothing.  The camera seemed to actually follow the fabric swatch around.

jmo

.

I'm wondering if more of the fabric was found than what we saw?

Didn't some Monkeys say they saw swatches of the same color caught in the rocks? 

Carpe did... in this crevice

[Peaches]

Also doesn't that Dr. Andrew Hodges give the exact dimentions from an interview he evidently did with the fisherman with the missing trap?

Dimensions might well be on his website as well.

.

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

[private eye]

It is dangherous to speak for whom I don't even know, but I imagine the pictures were posted by someone related to a direct party of the case for friends either for popularity, importance, or almost like an assignment of show and tell. No harm was intended, she just wanted to share something "official" with her group. I am sure a lot of people have made that mistake before.

Every time I tell a secret I remind myself it is no longer secret once I tell it because everyone has someone they tell everything to, so it goes from 1 person on up steadily until everyone knows. Luckily, people can't ever repeat the secret accurately, so due to the confusion, it is still somewhat of a secret. Everybody knows you did something, they just aren't sure exactly what.

[Sea Searcher]

Someone commented on the size of the trap.

I think most are basing the size on the video of the divers doing the thumbs down instead of the still photos.  At least that is what I am doing.  The trap would have to be very large compared to the size of the divers whom I am assuming are of average height.


jmo

I dont understand the whole "size of the trap" argument.

Obviously fishermen raise and lower these traps on a regular basis, why is the size important?

Some felt the trap was not consistent with the size of the trap stolen from the Fisherman's Hut.  That trap was about 4' x 5 1/2' x 17".  The assumption is that if Natalee's body were in the trap, that it would be the stolen trap from Fisherman's Hut.  Some have theorized that her body could have been placed in a different trap, not necessarily the stolen trap, so we would then not know the dimensions.  Others have said that the underwater view distorts size. 

Good Afternoon All

Blah...I had asked last night about the size of this Trap-Cage-Other...to get some kind
of idea about what may be in it..for instance, if this trap is only 17" high then the object
that kind of looks like a skull, would only be approx. 2" in dia IMO and that seems too
small to be a skull. also the trap is broken into 9 squares only making each 1'-6" +/-
so the whole object area is too small to be a human body ?

I see something in 2 of these pictures but if the above dimensions are correct, then I'm
wrong and don't want to speculate, that was why I hoped Oceanexplorer (Kyle) could
give a rough size of this trap even if (I understand) he can't say what was inside.

I want those monkey emoticons for my email !

[blah]

Right, Private Eye,

I think the size of the trap goes more to the size of boat needed to maneuver it and the amount of planning and time required to engage such a vessel.

Blah just doesn't understand.  

I guess I dont understand.  Are you saying the boat that was used has been identified and the size of this trap is too big to fit on the boat that was used?

No, I am not saying anything except a little boat could be used for a little trap but a huge trap would require a much larger boat.  The size of the trap would likely reflect the size of the boat used for placing it.  It wouldn't fit on a really small boat.

.

ok, so which part of that are you saying that I dont understand then?  Because I mean, I agree with it.

 

[AZLady]

Right, Private Eye,

I think the size of the trap goes more to the size of boat needed to maneuver it and the amount of planning and time required to engage such a vessel.

Blah just doesn't understand.  

I guess I dont understand.  Are you saying the boat that was used has been identified and the size of this trap is too big to fit on the boat that was used?

To my knowledge the boat has not been identified.  Some have speculated that the Koen's boat or the Tatoo's tender boat might have been used.  Others have mentioned a cigarette boat owned by Lorenzo.  Last night Rob posted the link to a Chicago video that focuses on a larger ship that appears to be an Aruban coast guard cutter.  Nope, we don't know what boat was used, but I hope the investigation uncovers this.

[MumInOhio]

Wreck, other statements support your theory.  Specifically, Dompig's comments that her body was moved more than once.  This implies that she was not dumped at sea on the night of May 30 or even May 31, but at a later time.

I know Tamikosmom will have this, but IIRC, Dompig maybe, said the radar was down June 7th. 2005

[blah]

Someone commented on the size of the trap.

I think most are basing the size on the video of the divers doing the thumbs down instead of the still photos.  At least that is what I am doing.  The trap would have to be very large compared to the size of the divers whom I am assuming are of average height.


jmo

I dont understand the whole "size of the trap" argument.

Obviously fishermen raise and lower these traps on a regular basis, why is the size important?

Some felt the trap was not consistent with the size of the trap stolen from the Fisherman's Hut.  That trap was about 4' x 5 1/2' x 17".  The assumption is that if Natalee's body were in the trap, that it would be the stolen trap from Fisherman's Hut.  Some have theorized that her body could have been placed in a different trap, not necessarily the stolen trap, so we would then not know the dimensions.  Others have said that the underwater view distorts size. 

Good Afternoon All

Blah...I had asked last night about the size of this Trap-Cage-Other...to get some kind
of idea about what may be in it..for instance, if this trap is only 17" high then the object
that kind of looks like a skull, would only be approx. 2" in dia IMO and that seems too
small to be a skull. also the trap is broken into 9 squares only making each 1'-6" +/-
so the whole object area is too small to be a human body ?

I see something in 2 of these pictures but if the above dimensions are correct, then I'm
wrong and don't want to speculate, that was why I hoped Oceanexplorer (Kyle) could
give a rough size of this trap even if (I understand) he can't say what was inside.

I want those monkey emoticons for my email !

Thanks Sea Searcher.  I think the trap in those pics is ALOT bigger than 4' x 5 1/2' x 17".

I also believe its possible for Natalee to be in a trap much bigger than 4' x 5 1/2' x 17". 

[Anna]

Someone commented on the size of the trap.

I think most are basing the size on the video of the divers doing the thumbs down instead of the still photos.  At least that is what I am doing.  The trap would have to be very large compared to the size of the divers whom I am assuming are of average height.


jmo

I dont understand the whole "size of the trap" argument.

Obviously fishermen raise and lower these traps on a regular basis, why is the size important?

Some felt the trap was not consistent with the size of the trap stolen from the Fisherman's Hut.  That trap was about 4' x 5 1/2' x 17".  The assumption is that if Natalee's body were in the trap, that it would be the stolen trap from Fisherman's Hut.  Some have theorized that her body could have been placed in a different trap, not necessarily the stolen trap, so we would then not know the dimensions.  Others have said that the underwater view distorts size. 

Good Afternoon All

Blah...I had asked last night about the size of this Trap-Cage-Other...to get some kind
of idea about what may be in it..for instance, if this trap is only 17" high then the object
that kind of looks like a skull, would only be approx. 2" in dia IMO and that seems too
small to be a skull. also the trap is broken into 9 squares only making each 1'-6" +/-
so the whole object area is too small to be a human body ?

I see something in 2 of these pictures but if the above dimensions are correct, then I'm
wrong and don't want to speculate, that was why I hoped Oceanexplorer (Kyle) could
give a rough size of this trap even if (I understand) he can't say what was inside.

I want those monkey emoticons for my email !

Seaearcher,

It was the size of the divers in the Dateline video doing the thrumbs down sign that I use for size of trap comparison.  Assuming they were normal sized adults, it would make this trap much larger than the one whose dimensions we were given as the one stolen.  You may recall how the trap looked beside the divers as a reference for size.

.

[AZLady]

Wreck, other statements support your theory.  Specifically, Dompig's comments that her body was moved more than once.  This implies that she was not dumped at sea on the night of May 30 or even May 31, but at a later time.

I know Tamikosmom will have this, but IIRC, Dompig maybe, said the radar was down June 7th. 2005

Mum, I've also read that the Aruban radar system is so inconsistent and unreliable that it was down for long periods of time.  So, a boat could go in and out without being tracked on numerous nights.  I believe this is to enable the drug smugglers, but it would also enable lots of other activity.

[Anna]

No, we don't know anything except here these pictures are.

[MumInOhio]

Wreck, other statements support your theory.  Specifically, Dompig's comments that her body was moved more than once.  This implies that she was not dumped at sea on the night of May 30 or even May 31, but at a later time.

I know Tamikosmom will have this, but IIRC, Dompig maybe, said the radar was down June 7th. 2005

Mum, I've also read that the Aruban radar system is so inconsistent and unreliable that it was down for long periods of time.  So, a boat could go in and out without being tracked on numerous nights.  I believe this is to enable the drug smugglers, but it would also enable lots of other activity.

IIRC the system they had in 2005 could not even detect small boats.

[Sea Searcher]

Someone commented on the size of the trap.

I think most are basing the size on the video of the divers doing the thumbs down instead of the still photos.  At least that is what I am doing.  The trap would have to be very large compared to the size of the divers whom I am assuming are of average height.


jmo

I dont understand the whole "size of the trap" argument.

Obviously fishermen raise and lower these traps on a regular basis, why is the size important?

Some felt the trap was not consistent with the size of the trap stolen from the Fisherman's Hut.  That trap was about 4' x 5 1/2' x 17".  The assumption is that if Natalee's body were in the trap, that it would be the stolen trap from Fisherman's Hut.  Some have theorized that her body could have been placed in a different trap, not necessarily the stolen trap, so we would then not know the dimensions.  Others have said that the underwater view distorts size. 

Good Afternoon All

Blah...I had asked last night about the size of this Trap-Cage-Other...to get some kind
of idea about what may be in it..for instance, if this trap is only 17" high then the object
that kind of looks like a skull, would only be approx. 2" in dia IMO and that seems too
small to be a skull. also the trap is broken into 9 squares only making each 1'-6" +/-
so the whole object area is too small to be a human body ?

I see something in 2 of these pictures but if the above dimensions are correct, then I'm
wrong and don't want to speculate, that was why I hoped Oceanexplorer (Kyle) could
give a rough size of this trap even if (I understand) he can't say what was inside.

I want those monkey emoticons for my email !

Seaearcher,

It was the size of the divers in the Dateline video doing the thrumbs down sign that I use for size of trap comparison.  Assuming they were normal sized adults, it would make this trap much larger than the one whose dimensions we were given as the one stolen.  You may recall how the trap looked beside the divers as a reference for size.

.

I'm sorry...I don't have TV here so I didn't get to see the Dateline special 

Are these pictures of the same trap show in the special ? The pictures, to me, must
hold some value considering where the came from ? perhaps only to show the clarity
of underwater photos

[Destiny]

Right, Private Eye,

I think the size of the trap goes more to the size of boat needed to maneuver it and the amount of planning and time required to engage such a vessel.

Blah just doesn't understand.   

I guess I dont understand.  Are you saying the boat that was used has been identified and the size of this trap is too big to fit on the boat that was used?

Don't remember exactly who posted it yesterday/night...but there was some buzz going on regarding the bost/ship from the Aruba-Bay video...it was I think Rob who brought it to our attention....as others have said....there is a *reason* that boat/ship is in that video...jmoo

Moringing Monkeys!

[Anna]

SeaSearcher,

Not to worry, it is always posted here if it appeared in the media compliments of Carpe.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9.180

Look around Replies 193, 194.  There is likely even a transcript of the program as well.

[KarmaRoundUp]

are there better pictures than the ones posted on the front page?

Yes here:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.msg355959#msg355959

Does anyone know what area these pics were from?Did Tim from Eqqusearch ever scan this same area?Just wondering......

[Tamikosmom]

Klaas

Did Carpe create a YouTube video of the DATELINE program.

If so ... could you please provide the YouTube link.

Monkeys could view the segment where the drivers approach the cage/trap.  The divers are dwarfed beside this wire meshed container.

Maybe the underground image is distorted but ...

Thank you.

Janet

+++++++++


TRAP STOLEN FROM FISHERMAN'S HUT

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

[AZLady]

are there better pictures than the ones posted on the front page?

Yes here:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.msg355959#msg355959

Does anyone know what area these pics were from?Did Tim from Eqqusearch ever scan this same area?Just wondering......

Tim was with the ocean search when these pics were taken, is my understanding.  It's about 90 feet of water.  The location is described further in the Dateline show.  Check the media thread and you can read the transcript and view the show in segments.

[Rob]

Dompig blamed Raytheon for the bad radar equipment and said they got new equipment from Denmark.

[Bladerunner]

Yes, many of us watched the fabric swatch turned loose into the wind in the original video of that.  Then later, it was left off the end.

And for some reason, the cameraman seemed particularly focused on it as well as though he, too, recognized it as a part of Natalee's clothing.  The camera seemed to actually follow the fabric swatch around.

jmo

.

I'm wondering if more of the fabric was found than what we saw?

Good point Klaas.

I find it odd that the FBI would be testing the fabric found against a "sample" of fabric that was similar to what Natalee was wearing. Even if it was a match, the evidenciary value would be pretty low, legally speaking.

But the investigative value would be immense

Indeed, but I guess the big question is what material does the FBI have that they are using for the baseline comparison test? I would argue that somehow a piece of the fabric found by the ranger made it into their hands as "evidence".