Natalee Case Discussion #738 3/1 - 3/3/08

[Flipper/Donnie29]

Btw since Katrien made such a nice first post i feel i need to tell a bit about myself to..

Im a guy from Holland and interested in the case from the beginning.. but last november i saw a documentary of peter de vries and i saw so many things that i dived on top of it.. i learned about the rebound topic, and through the guidance of *******(he gave me alot of links to read about) i read so many things, from statements to riehl world etc etc.. i also read Dave's book, in 3 nights.. what a good book, made my cry.. But know i learned so much, that its almost unbelievable the whole case.. especially the first month(the Deepak car/the house search etc)..

I hope they did find something, and what about the cage? Is the cage going to come back to the united states?

Thanks!

WELCOME FLIPPER!!!!
******* has told us a lot about you and I couldn't wait for you to come over to Scared Monkey's.  I have read Dave's book completely twice, I read it so fast the first time that I wanted to go back and absorb more fully the information in it.  I use it for reference a LOT for posting here.  I also cried a lot while reading it.  I live in Texas now but I spent many years as a girl in Mississippi, not far from where Dave lives, so I've felt a connection to him and his family from the beginning.  I look forward to your input here, and hope that you will help tell this family's TRUE story in your country.  The misinformation campaign by those who wish to hide the truth has truly been unfortunate for Natalee and her family in seeking justice. 
Again, WELCOME TO SCARED MONKEYS!
 

I'm still a few pages back catching up, hopefully I'll be here soon!

Hi Texasmom,

Thanks alot for your kind words! Appreciate it! Yeah i think im going to read the book again, but i first want to read Beth's book, then Daves for the second time.. Reading it makes me feel more close to the case then i ever thought possible.. that makes it very sad.. but also the willing to get to the bottom of this, so it has two sides..

About Holland, what i can tell you from personal experiences is that the people i talk about, miss alot of information on the Holloway case, they know maybe 30%.. so when i tell them things they just listen with there mouths open.. So yes im spreading that word!

[Tamikosmom]

You are misundestanding. I think the divers "giving the thumbs down" was staged as to not give away what they really found. The photos are REAL and perhaps really do show remains.

Wreck ... if Tim Miller ... Dave Holloway and ... Beth Holloway staged the following deception ... then Tamikomom's unwavering trust of these three for almost three years has been negated.

Wreck ... silence regarding aspects of an investigation is where it is at ... not lies ... not a collaborated deception on American  DATELINE.  A charade to deceive was not necessary.

I give Tim Miller ... Dave Holloway and ... Beth Twitty Hollloway ... the benefit of the doubt.  They were all speaking the truth ... there was nothing connected to Natalee Holloway in that enormous cage/trap.

I am done!

Janet

+++++++++++++


The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.
 
The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

(On the boat) Brandon: We have visual on divers and target.

Slowly the divers worked their way down to the trap. They had been instructed to give a thumbs up or thumbs down.  The atmosphere in the survey room was tense, and nerves were raw as Miller, the Aruban authorities and the crew of the Persistence waited for word of what exactly was in the trap. The divers approached the target and signaled above. And then...

(On the boat) No it's thumbs down. Negative, not it.

Crushing disappointment.

(On the boat) Tim Miller: Divers coming up right now. I don't know it looked as promising today as it did last night or before.

Miller: Nothing?

Trahan: No.

Chris Hansen: That had to be a crushing blow.

Tim Miller: It was a crushing blow.
 
Now Tim Miller had to deliver that same crushing blow to Natalee’s parents.

Chris Hansen: How hard is it for you to dial their numbers and tell them that this in fact is not the break in the case we-- we hoped for?

Tim Miller: Probably one of the hardest calls I ever made. Probably one of the hardest … probably should have never made the first one. But everything looked right at the time.

Natalee’s father was at home in Mississippi when the call came.

Chris Hansen: What was it like for you to, once again, have a setback?

Dave Holloway: That's probably about the time that-- the chest pains intensified to an extreme. I mean, how many times can I take this?

Beth Holloway: You know, it's a disappointment. But, you have to look at the magnitude and the sacrifices being made even to get to that point.

Chris Hansen: You didn't know these folks before this happened. What do they represent to you now?
 
Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.
 
To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

I am not denigrating Tim, Beth, and Dave. There is a good reason why they did not want the info out there. I think they were trying to find out just exactly who owned or put that trap there. Going public with everything they know isn't always a good thing. I certainly don't begrudge them trying to " mislead" us. They don't owe US anything. I also think the family is holding back a few tidbits of evidence --- more power to them.
[/quote]

Wreck ... we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Silence encompassing the entire dive would have been where it was at if crucial evidence relating to the Natalee Holloway case had been recovered from that enormous cage/trap but ... the integrity of the investigatin dictated it could not be publicly revealed.  Collaborated lies was sooo unnecessary.

I give Tim, Dave and Beth much more credit.

Janet

[wreck]

Wreck ... we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Silence encompassing the entire dive would have been where it was at if crucial evidence relating to the Natalee Holloway case had been recovered from that enormous cage/trap but ... the integrity of the investigatin dictated it could not be publicly revealed.  Collaborated lies was sooo unnecessary.

I give Tim, Dave and Beth much more credit.

Janet

They only had to do that when the the photos were leaked on the internet -- otherwise plain silence was ok.

Sorry to argue -- I just don't think any of this makes sense. I could be totally wrong -- who knows.

[private eye]

I probably said that wrong ....... not "withholding evidence" -- but more like not revealing EVERYTHING they know to the public.

Maybe, but to be honest, it is extremely hard to keep something secret from the Monkeys. I wasn't happy with the information I got in the beginning, and that is how I found this site. Granted, sometimes she knows something we don't know, but more times than not all of you know a lot that she doesn't know, and you know things quicker. An unrelated example is the wreck of the ambulance. You all had the answer before the mother barely got out of her house to even go to her daughter. And had time to console her, pray for her, and offer her guidance.

And I am not anti Persistence. I think they are grand, am admittedly jealous I could not be on the boat, and think they have been unbelievably generous. But I do worry that the Arubans are so slick that they can weasel into the confidences of anyone, and am just hoping they do not do that with this group. It was only one statement, but I shook when I read it. Thats why I posted that Beth had no problem or disappointment with them returning home, so despite my fears, I trust everything is fine.

All of this is confusing, but she and Dave are in the know, and if they are happy than I am happy.

[Anna]

Rob,
I agree with all you said about the hoopla that goes along with a State Visit.  No way is that Cheney.  He never goes much of anywhere anyway.  But our heads of state don't just pop in and out.

Tot,

Also we agree that this would be the most impractical method for handling drugs.  A trap that large doesn't even seem a grand idea for fish for that matter, would require commercial trawler, etc.

So I don't know what any of this means.

I do think could be connected to the routine Homeland Security meeting as first choice and second by some connection regarding our personnel in Colombia.  No, not an emergency airlift like out of Vietnam but removal of our key personnel in the region if Chavez makes good on his threats but not even that likely as the plane seems to be on a schedule.

I don't think any of this means much, sadly.  We just might be making far more out of it that is there.  Reading more into things than they warrant?

But after almost three year, it is understandable that we are very eager for some progress, any kind of progress, just that this may not be it.

jmo

[private eye]

I think the announcement of hostilities in the region answers the question and explain the awkardness. It is easy to post what you don't mean, especially if you cannot disclose the entire truth, and I believe in judging people by their actions, and the OE performed brilliantly, and left only when their crew was in jepordy.

[Tamikosmom]

I do not believe for one minute that on February 28, 2008 ... Louis Schafer... a philanthropist who has a reputation for doing so much good with his accumulated wealth ... would stoop to do anything so underhanded as to plea for donations for the continuation of the Persistance search while knowing that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.  I do believe this is referred to as fraud.

Then there are the words of Tim Trahan.  He was the Persistance diver who investigated the enormous cage/trap along with the Aruban divers.  He is emphatic about the continuation of the search.

Janet

++++++++++++

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951

Holloway searchers need helpThursday, February 28, 2008 | 8:21 PM

By Cynthia Cisneros

KEMAH, TX (KTRK) -- It's been almost three years since Natalee Holloway disappeared in Aruba on a class trip.
But searchers have not given up hope.

A Kemah businessman has been on the front lines of the search for Natalee, spending over a million dollars of his own money. Over the past four months, he's paid for an underwater search.

The morning we were there, Louis Schafer was signing a wire transfer for $250,000. The money used to operate a sophisticated, deep sea survey boat, named the Persistence.

"I've dedicated a million dollars, I've gone way above that," said Louis Schafer of Underwater Expeditions. "I feel like it's time to ask for help from the American people that want to see this case solved."

The Persistence has been used every day since November to survey the ocean floor near Aruba. It uses remote operated vehicles, called ROVs, to sweep the ocean depths. What they've been able to accomplish is astounding.

"By Friday, we will have surveyed the entire 50-square mile off Aruba," Schafer said. "We have identified at least 60 of the targets. we have about 150 more targets to inspect."

Natalee Holloway traveled to Aruba two years ago to celebrate her high school graduation and disappeared. Natalee was last seen with Joran Van der Sloot who says he does not know what happened to her.

Schafer made a fortune in the deep sea diving business for oil rig removal and installation. He had access to unique technology and a team of experts that could find just about anything.
 
"So we have completely mapped the ocean floor, we know every object that's there, we know every object that could be a container holding her in the sea," he said.

A relentless search Schafer and his team say will stop, if they don't get more funding.

"And we all feel, I'm speaking from everybody on the team, that she's in one of the targets we have not looked at yet," Tim Trahan of Underwater Expeditions said. "We can't stop. I go to sleep at night thinking we've located it, we just need to get to it."

The search of the rest of those targets will stop this week. For more information on how you can help,

[Anna]

I don't think anyone is doing anything bad.  We just don't know what exactly they are doing and tend to speculate.

[hotping]

I wonder if they thought they had a large donation and for some reason it did not happen.....and that's why it was so late in them asking for the public's help in raising the funds???? 

[hotping]

I don't think anyone is doing anything bad.  We just don't know what exactly they are doing and tend to speculate.

YEP!

[cubbeegirl]

I don't think anyone is doing anything bad.  We just don't know what exactly they are doing and tend to speculate.

YEP!

Yes and given the fact that we have been here doing exactly that for almost three years, I don't see that changing anytime soon ....

[private eye]

I do not believe for one minute that on February 28, 2008 ... Louis Schafer... a philanthropist who has a reputation for doing so much good with his accumulated wealth ... would stoop to do anything so underhanded as to plea for donations for the continuation of the Persistance search while knowing that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.  I do believe this is referred to as fraud.

Then there are the words of Tim Trahan.  He was the Persistance diver who investigated the enormous cage/trap along with the Aruban divers.  He is emphatic about the continuation of the search.

Janet

++++++++++++

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951

Holloway searchers need helpThursday, February 28, 2008 | 8:21 PM

By Cynthia Cisneros

KEMAH, TX (KTRK) -- It's been almost three years since Natalee Holloway disappeared in Aruba on a class trip.
But searchers have not given up hope.

A Kemah businessman has been on the front lines of the search for Natalee, spending over a million dollars of his own money. Over the past four months, he's paid for an underwater search.

The morning we were there, Louis Schafer was signing a wire transfer for $250,000. The money used to operate a sophisticated, deep sea survey boat, named the Persistence.

"I've dedicated a million dollars, I've gone way above that," said Louis Schafer of Underwater Expeditions. "I feel like it's time to ask for help from the American people that want to see this case solved."

The Persistence has been used every day since November to survey the ocean floor near Aruba. It uses remote operated vehicles, called ROVs, to sweep the ocean depths. What they've been able to accomplish is astounding.

"By Friday, we will have surveyed the entire 50-square mile off Aruba," Schafer said. "We have identified at least 60 of the targets. we have about 150 more targets to inspect."

Natalee Holloway traveled to Aruba two years ago to celebrate her high school graduation and disappeared. Natalee was last seen with Joran Van der Sloot who says he does not know what happened to her.

Schafer made a fortune in the deep sea diving business for oil rig removal and installation. He had access to unique technology and a team of experts that could find just about anything.
 
"So we have completely mapped the ocean floor, we know every object that's there, we know every object that could be a container holding her in the sea," he said.

A relentless search Schafer and his team say will stop, if they don't get more funding.

"And we all feel, I'm speaking from everybody on the team, that she's in one of the targets we have not looked at yet," Tim Trahan of Underwater Expeditions said. "We can't stop. I go to sleep at night thinking we've located it, we just need to get to it."

The search of the rest of those targets will stop this week. For more information on how you can help,

I think it was the hostilities. It explains everything. And I see my fear was based upon ignorance. I didn't realize that a US diver went down with them

[private eye]

I don't think anyone is doing anything bad.  We just don't know what exactly they are doing and tend to speculate.

YEP!

Yes and given the fact that we have been here doing exactly that for almost three years, I don't see that changing anytime soon ....

I agree 100%

[Tater]

I guess I'm alittle PO'D at the Persistence.Not the crew,but the one's that started all this to begin with.I just don't understand asking for donations one day and the next saying we are going home.I thought I read and maybe I'm wrong that they had the targets located and the next thing to be done was to dive on them.Well a couple of speed boats and a few divers could have eliminated most if not all of those targets in a short amount of time.That is just the way I see this.I'm bummed out with them,I confess it...Please feel free to correct me if needed..It's truth on truth for me and I respect many of you very much so if I need adjusting,have at it...

[private eye]

Btw since Katrien made such a nice first post i feel i need to tell a bit about myself to..

Im a guy from Holland and interested in the case from the beginning.. but last november i saw a documentary of peter de vries and i saw so many things that i dived on top of it.. i learned about the rebound topic, and through the guidance of *******(he gave me alot of links to read about) i read so many things, from statements to riehl world etc etc.. i also read Dave's book, in 3 nights.. what a good book, made my cry.. But know i learned so much, that its almost unbelievable the whole case.. especially the first month(the Deepak car/the house search etc)..

I hope they did find something, and what about the cage? Is the cage going to come back to the united states?

Thanks!

WELCOME FLIPPER!!!!
******* has told us a lot about you and I couldn't wait for you to come over to Scared Monkey's.  I have read Dave's book completely twice, I read it so fast the first time that I wanted to go back and absorb more fully the information in it.  I use it for reference a LOT for posting here.  I also cried a lot while reading it.  I live in Texas now but I spent many years as a girl in Mississippi, not far from where Dave lives, so I've felt a connection to him and his family from the beginning.  I look forward to your input here, and hope that you will help tell this family's TRUE story in your country.  The misinformation campaign by those who wish to hide the truth has truly been unfortunate for Natalee and her family in seeking justice. 
Again, WELCOME TO SCARED MONKEYS!
 

I'm still a few pages back catching up, hopefully I'll be here soon!

Hi Texasmom,

Thanks alot for your kind words! Appreciate it! Yeah i think im going to read the book again, but i first want to read Beth's book, then Daves for the second time.. Reading it makes me feel more close to the case then i ever thought possible.. that makes it very sad.. but also the willing to get to the bottom of this, so it has two sides..

About Holland, what i can tell you from personal experiences is that the people i talk about, miss alot of information on the Holloway case, they know maybe 30%.. so when i tell them things they just listen with there mouths open.. So yes im spreading that word!

******* really gets around and has great taste in friends:) Boston, Holland,

[Finbar]

So all we really know:

1. JVDS is a bisexual
2. JVDS Bogarts spliffs
3. JVDS is setting up for an insanity defense.


Fin

[Tamikosmom]

I do not believe for one minute that on February 28, 2008 ... Louis Schafer... a philanthropist who has a reputation for doing so much good with his accumulated wealth ... would stoop to do anything so underhanded as to plea for donations for the continuation of the Persistance search while knowing that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.  I do believe this is referred to as fraud.

Then there are the words of Tim Trahan.  He was the Persistance diver who investigated the enormous cage/trap along with the Aruban divers.  He is emphatic about the continuation of the search.

Janet

++++++++++++

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951

Holloway searchers need helpThursday, February 28, 2008 | 8:21 PM

By Cynthia Cisneros

KEMAH, TX (KTRK) -- It's been almost three years since Natalee Holloway disappeared in Aruba on a class trip.
But searchers have not given up hope.

A Kemah businessman has been on the front lines of the search for Natalee, spending over a million dollars of his own money. Over the past four months, he's paid for an underwater search.

The morning we were there, Louis Schafer was signing a wire transfer for $250,000. The money used to operate a sophisticated, deep sea survey boat, named the Persistence.

"I've dedicated a million dollars, I've gone way above that," said Louis Schafer of Underwater Expeditions. "I feel like it's time to ask for help from the American people that want to see this case solved."

The Persistence has been used every day since November to survey the ocean floor near Aruba. It uses remote operated vehicles, called ROVs, to sweep the ocean depths. What they've been able to accomplish is astounding.

"By Friday, we will have surveyed the entire 50-square mile off Aruba," Schafer said. "We have identified at least 60 of the targets. we have about 150 more targets to inspect."

Natalee Holloway traveled to Aruba two years ago to celebrate her high school graduation and disappeared. Natalee was last seen with Joran Van der Sloot who says he does not know what happened to her.

Schafer made a fortune in the deep sea diving business for oil rig removal and installation. He had access to unique technology and a team of experts that could find just about anything.
 
"So we have completely mapped the ocean floor, we know every object that's there, we know every object that could be a container holding her in the sea," he said.

A relentless search Schafer and his team say will stop, if they don't get more funding.

"And we all feel, I'm speaking from everybody on the team, that she's in one of the targets we have not looked at yet," Tim Trahan of Underwater Expeditions said. "We can't stop. I go to sleep at night thinking we've located it, we just need to get to it."

The search of the rest of those targets will stop this week. For more information on how you can help,

I think it was the hostilities. It explains everything. And I see my fear was based upon ignorance. I didn't realize that a US diver went down with them

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.
 
Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers.

As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[cubbeegirl]

I guess I'm alittle PO'D at the Persistence.Not the crew,but the one's that started all this to begin with.I just don't understand asking for donations one day and the next saying we are going home.I thought I read and maybe I'm wrong that they had the targets located and the next thing to be done was to dive on them.Well a couple of speed boats and a few divers could have eliminated most if not all of those targets in a short amount of time.That is just the way I see this.I'm bummed out with them,I confess it...Please feel free to correct me if needed..It's truth on truth for me and I respect many of you very much so if I need adjusting,have at it...

Tot... can't say that I am PO'D, but I do understand your wondering WTH... I was busy in court most of last week and only got to read very sporadically... I remember reading that if they did not get funding they may have to discontinue their search, I went out of town this weekend, came back and they are gone.... hmmmm... it does make one wonder...I kind of figured that having to discontinue meant if they did not get funding in the near future, not immediately... dunnooo 

[Miss Scarlet]

I'm on page 13 and can't keep up with y'all, but I'm going to post anyway.

I was wondering and maybe one of the fellas know . . .

Since the 'dark side' had put Cheney's name in the mix regarding involvement awhile back, say Persistence has Natalee and we've got the perps, could / would there be some type of political ramifications?  I'm not nearly as steeped in political ways as perhaps Kermit, but I sure wouldn't think trying to name a political head as being involved when they clearly are not, would be a smart thing to do.  And if it has finally been proven - well, if I were the VP, those who tagged me would be in deep doodoo.

Some of you mentioned political pouch last night and I had to google it because I had never heard that term and did not know what it was or how it may in fact tie in.  I really don't think it is pure coincidence AF2 decided to fly in when Persistence decided to sail out.   Odd.

OceanExplorer did say that answers to all our questions were coming in time.  This makes me think they are coming home because their quest was done.  He did infer the other targets were insignificant in comparison and it really makes no sense to cover them if not required.  The gentleman who so generously funded this excursion need not lay out more than required.  As for requesting donations - why not?  He planned on spending a million and laid out two.  Why not get some of it back?  To my knowledge his generosity has yet to be matched.

Anyway, I thought maybe the US would be able to pull in some who stupidly pointed to Cheney as having some type of involvement could be brought in on charges of some kind.

Dummies.  Dumb, dumb, dumb!   

[AZSunny]

I think the trap more likely had drug remains than human remains.  I think the Persistence crew uncovered something Aruba didn't want them to find out about.

They were very quick to indicate a thumbs down however, they had just arrived and peeked in??? too staged