Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 - 3/5/08

[Spock]

Any estimations as to the dimensions and weight of the cage, or based upon the general conditions of the cage, coral build up, rust, etc. how long the cage had been submersed? It looked awfully large, but water can distort sizes to a certain extent. It looked a lot larger than the cages that would have been at the fishermans hut.

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

OE, the question everyone wants answered is:

Were there human remains and clothing remnants in the trap?

[oceanexploration]

Allow me to reiterate in case you missed my previous posting about our leaving and the pics at BFN:

John sent the pics to his sister who is an active poster at BFN.  I had nothing to due with it, I was traveling.  It wasn't intended to snub anyone, nor was there any harm intended by anyone.  I am not involved in the fund raising, nor do I wish to be. 
The views posted by anyone other than the search team does not reflect the views or opinions of the search team.  I've done my best to keep the blog updated and reflective of our views.  Recently, (past several weeks) my plate was overflowing and the blog suffered as a result in terms of content.  However, it is still carefully constructed and every word is in it's proper purposeful context. 
I will continue to keep it updated with news and updates as they unfold and as things develop. 

[Bladerunner]

OE how long does it take to locate a given target with the rover-on average, assuming the boat is relatively close to it. How fast can it descend into the depths? And what about the density of the remaining targets, are they close, scattered, clustered, radom?

[Peaches]

I am happy with the explanation from OE. I did read Kyle's CV when I first learned his name. This was not a haphazard search by amateurs. Certainly is alot of mis communication on these blogs.

Me, too. 

[oceanexploration]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

[private eye]

Underwater construction, discovering lost worlds, fortunes on shipwrecks, and or recovering victims. You'll be part of the generations that robs the oceans of her secrets, with a direct involvement and a front row seat:)

[JE]

One more time. You cannot call an airline and ask who WAS on a plane.  They will not tell you because 1) they aren't allowed to 2) it's none of your business 3) the person you talk to does not have that information anyway.  If you fly on Monday, 24 hours later, flight information is now past date....all of it.  You can't even tell if it was on time or not once 24hours passes. 

If you call the airline, they don't know you from Adam's housecat.  They are not and cannot say with 100% certainty that someone is on an airplane.  They can tell you whether or not someone is "checked in" which is not the same as whose butt in the seat, assuming there is a butt in the seat.  They can tell you who has a reservation (but they're not really supposed to and you best have a good story if you think you're going to get that information.) 

Since 9/11, I would imagine things have changed somewhat.   Rules about passenger information and privacy are probably tighter than they used to be. 

My point is we really don't know if the two younger Sloots were with Anita in Holland or not.  Calling KLM a couple weeks later is not going to net you that information because the records are long gone by then.  I'm sure a subpoena would be necessary to obtain the information from microfiche (this is where the info used to go).   

Didn't Paulus give a sworn statement that he watched at least one of the smaller boys get on the bus the next day?

from june 23 PV

 To your question whether Sebastian and Valentijn went to school
that Monday, I can state the following. Yes, they got onto the bus
and went to school because in the period that Anita was away they
took the bus every day.

[Peaches]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

Thank you, Kyle.  Have a great evening. 

[private eye]

Ocean Ex

I think you already know how I feel, but I think you did a great job, sincerely.

[Bladerunner]

Yes, and on the off-ship interview he says "it looked like a skull, still looks like a skull."  Did they interview him before or after video #3 of the tactile recovery that was shot on Jan 7th?

[Magnolia]

There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

Why did the Persistence not get more TV time on the Dateline. I was expecting an hour long special on the workings of the boat, and I assume there were literally hundreds of hours of film footage that would have made fascinating television viewing?

Were it not for Ocean we would have not known a thing going on in the waters
of Aruba, except what Legally Lex chose to post at BFN.
He did his best to give us some insight.  I am grateful.
 

[Kermit]

Kyle is this you?

[Spock]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

1. Why not? You must be aware there is more speculation than facts in these forums.

2. If you refuse to comment on the contents we will have to assume, remains were found and your response is a legalistic "no comment"

[Bearlyhere]

Guess I'll need Anna to show me how to properly bring a post forward from the last thread...I always screw it up 

Destiny
If it is near page 50, before you click 'post,' copy the whole thing. 
If we have moved on to the new thread, simply click reply, then "paste' it into the box and hit post.

[Bladerunner]

There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

Why did the Persistence not get more TV time on the Dateline. I was expecting an hour long special on the workings of the boat, and I assume there were literally hundreds of hours of film footage that would have made fascinating television viewing?

Were it not for Ocean we would have not known a thing going on in the waters
of Aruba, except what Legally Lex chose to post at BFN.
He did his best to give us some insight.  I am grateful.
 

Does anyone have those press statements made by Tim Miller that OE is refering to above??

[private eye]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

1. Why not? You must be aware there is more speculation than facts in these forums.

2. If you refuse to comment on the contents we will have to assume, remains were found and your response is a legalistic "no comment"

He has told us what he could, and we really shouldn't pressure him to disclose more. He wants to be friendly and helpful, but he has boundaries imposed on him. I say we just enjoy his conversation when he feels free to talk to us.

[Tater]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

1. Why not? You must be aware there is more speculation than facts in these forums.

2. If you refuse to comment on the contents we will have to assume, remains were found and your response is a legalistic "no comment"

I would think not talking about this might just be a way to increase their safety and keep open the invitation of returning back to Aruba if and when they continue the search?

[Peaches]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

1. Why not? You must be aware there is more speculation than facts in these forums.

2. If you refuse to comment on the contents we will have to assume, remains were found and your response is a legalistic "no comment"

He has told us what he could, and we really shouldn't pressure him to disclose more. He wants to be friendly and helpful, but he has boundaries imposed on him. I say we just enjoy his conversation when he feels free to talk to us.

Thank you.

Don't make me drag out the dead horse.

[Kermit]

looks like a skull to moi

[cubbeegirl]

"Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist on board the R/V Persistence. Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification and location. I will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target after I pick and analyse each sonar target."

http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/

Hardly a cabin boy.

I do not doubt for one minute that Kyle is very qualified in his profession ... I do not doubt for one minute that Kyle motives in locating the remains of Natalee Hollway were very sincere.

However ... somewhere along the way Kyle was influenced to believe that those within the Aruban investigation were the "good guys" and ... the media which was the sole reason that the Natalee Holloway case did not become a faded memory was the "bad guy".

The following post spoke volumes to me in regards to Kyle naïveté in regards to the dynamics encompassing the "powers that be" in the Aruban investigation who have been behind the coverup which has been denying Natalee Holloway justice.

I cannot comprehend that Kyle would have posted the following words if he had done his homework.  If only he had read Dave Holloway's ... Corruption in Paradise or ... Beth Holloway's ... Loving Natalee.

In November, 2005 ... Dave Holloway conceded that his cooperation with the enemy had not worked.  Dave learned that his goal for justice to prevail for his precious daughter did not reflect ... the Aruban goal to distance Joran and Paulus from implication.

Janet

++++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #715 1/25 -
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2008, 12:38:25 PM »

Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-

To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal.


Dave Holloway
On the Record w/ Greta
November 17, 2005

HOLLOWAY: ... I made sure that the prime minister understood our position. You know, I had been holding off on this boycott as long as I could, and I told him, I said, you know, The big wave is coming, and if you guys are not going to listen, I can't help you anymore.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175925,00.html


Dave Holloway
On the Record w/ Greta
April 11, 2006

HOLLOWAY: Oh, the media was our best friend. If it hadn't been for the media this thing would have been swept under the table the very first day and we'd have been calling back to Aruba "Have you heard anything? Have you heard anything?" I truly believe that.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191377,00.html

I have done my homework. Not all that I posted is geared journalistically.  Some things I had written were specifically geared to send a message.  At times, this message was for only a few people.  This post at SM "praising Aruban authorities" was done with contextual purpose. Eveything I write ends up being read by people who are extremely interested and close to the case.  In context, we (the search team) needed to rapidly gain the trust and cooperation of the Aruban authorities.  Before we arrived, here was no trust, little cooperation, and no sharing of information. Take this for what it's worth:  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.  Also, don't make assumptions about what I have or have not read.

Not all that I write is my true feelings but is aimed at true purpose. Not everything is clear or should be taken just at face value.

God Bless you Kyle and the rest of the crew for all you have done....
My granny always used that little ditty, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"...
It has served me well many times in life.....