Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 - 3/5/08

[private eye]

Jo-ann I think you posted about friends of jurin's currently posting that his 2 younger brothers where in Netherlands with avds.  THANK YOU FOR THAT INFO!!!!!!  Many of us here were given that same info in June 2005 by people in aruba and not friends of the people of the ditch (love that name!).  Also a Monkey found out that 3 people of the ditch (3 van der sloots) flew from nl to aruba the day avds said she came home around June 1.  IMO, pvds needed his younger sons home for an alibi and that is when that story change.  Thanks again for posting that info.

Here are the posts from Fok.

Beth Holloway in Jensen tomorrow? I'll have a look.

kinkajoe
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:12 (#27)   
         
Op zaterdag 23 februari 2008 15:56 schreef mrBhimself het volgende:
En overigens Anita van der Sloot was helemaal niet in Amerika, maar was samen met haar jongste twee kinderen in Nederland op bezoek bij haar moeder. Je bent wederom eens slecht geinformeerd!
Volgens deze poster was Mw. v.d. Sloot met twee kinderen in Nederland.

 mrBhimself
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:56 (#28)   
                 
Inderdaad
Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters

Mr B says: "and by the way, Anita van der Sloot was not at all in America, but with her youngest two children in Holland to visit her mother. You are again very bad informed"

Kinkajoe quotes this sentence in a thread about the brothers and says: "according to this poster Mrs. v.d. Sloot was with two children in Holland".

Mr B came to the thread about the brothers to say: "Indeed, don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters".

Very interesting and that is what many believe that Anita was not in Holland alone. Kind of ridiculous to think she would leave a 10 year old home alone with Joran,especially after the things he does to the middle sibling. I suspect that it wasnt just Joran who was at play while Anita was away!

So why did Paulus lie under oath?

[Tamikosmom]

Any estimations as to the dimensions and weight of the cage, or based upon the general conditions of the cage, coral build up, rust, etc. how long the cage had been submersed? It looked awfully large, but water can distort sizes to a certain extent. It looked a lot larger than the cages that would have been at the fishermans hut.

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

Thank you Kyle.

The size of the trap/cage did appear so much larger in the image on Dateline.  The divers appeared very small in comparison.

Janet

+++++++++

Dr. Hodges:

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

Part 4 of the following YouTube download of the Dateline program pertains to the dive.  Although shared today that the trap/cage is larger than the cage/trap that was apparently stolen from the Fisherman's Hut ... the underwater image is very deceiving ... the size appears enormous.

Janet

+++++++++++++
 
DATELINE - FEBRUARY 22, 2008

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qPcVNZOp4tI&feature=related
Part 1

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D-uzUb1SxKA&feature=related
Part 2

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WkQ10zKh4S0&feature=related
Part 3

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z5B0t2cyGzs&feature=related
Part 4

[private eye]

I believe he will be PVDS personal bodyguard.   

According to Dave and Art Wood thats how he acted in June 2005. We know he showed up with Dennis Jacobs on his day off flashing his gun around,they took at as a obvious sign to back off from the Van Der Sloots.

Maybe Paulus is the big drug dealer and he hides behind his son Lorenzo

[GBMW]

Beth will be on Jensen show tomorrow but..... tonite Peter R de Vries will be on!!!
Starts in 10 mins!!!!!! 
Will keep you updated.

Jo-An  - Thanks!  I heard Beth will also be on Paul & Wittman (sp) tomorrow.

Do you happen to know if she will be the only guest? Uhmm...well that hasn't happened yet on that show so probably that's just wishfull thinking...perhaps with Peter R. de Vries & Patrick van der Eem (or is he still in Aruba)? Then they will really have some time to talk about the case / the corruption.

[Anna]

I haven't read all the way back yet but has this been posted:

http://www.nu.nl/news/1461794/20/'Aruba_doorvoerhaven_van_hero%efne'.html

Little bit translated:

 Aruba transit port of heroin '
ORANJESTAD - Aruba is a transit port for heroin and to a lesser degree of cocaine. Drug use on the island, also under tourists, remains a point of care. That stands in a report which The international Narcotics Strategy Friday to the American congress in America to report (INSCR) have offered. The report over the year 2007 has been made Monday public.
 
Cruising ships
The drugs would further be transported as from the island by means of cruising ships which put on Aruba and the daily flights as from the island to America and Europe. According to the report Aruba is interesting for smugglers by the ' good infrastructure, excellent flight connections and relatively light punish for drug trafficking in relatively good circumstances '. The report communicates that Aruba has crime indeed little, but that becomes clear that from crime research in 2007, ' prominent on the island has established drug traffickers '.
------------


Sounds like business as usual in Aruba.

[SunnyinTX]

They showed the whine incident again on the Jensen show and if i were Paulus and my son threw a glass of wine in somebody's without the other person having said or done anything to justify such an act i would have slapped him so hard that he'd be looking like this  three days later. So i doubt they ll take him to talk to the cops anytime soon.

I agree.  He should have been backhanded right then and right there.

Of course, it would probably be the first time he got what he had coming.

JE and Peaches...AMEN...my son would still be reeling!!

[Ono]

Can you just imagine the shock?....you send pictures
to the FBI and the next thing you know the pictures
are on the internet.

So foolish and so careless.   Stunning.

[caesu]

so Mos and Kruimel just have to sit their island adventure out. and never come back on the island afterwards.
that's one reason why i find those contract periods so bad. colonial attitude.
but there are not enough qualified arubans to do that job.
or arubans who studied law rather work in the netherlands maybe.

i doubt one is really committed i they have a safe exit strategy anyway.

So far everybody that they have sent to Aruba is a dud, Caesu. None of them have done jack. I have no faith in Mos, hope he proves me wrong but he definitely got pimp slapped last two times he tried something down there. three strikes you're out.

The losers list is getting longer: Karin Jannsen, Jan Van der Straten, Bob Wit, Ric Smid, Hans Less, Dop Kruimel, all have either hindered the case or gotten stomped on.

What's odd is that the case is so simple and has been from the beginning.

i did have high hopes in nico jörg, the procureur general. that's is something like the one person down from rudy croes.
i read some good articles about him.
but he is the care taker procureur general since fernandez-croes announce stepping down by january 2008 but already went on leave juli 2007.
so i think very soon rudy croes will replace nico jörg with one of his cronies.
which is a shame because nico jörg seems to be a good one. but he got frustrated by rudy croes, that's what i read between the lines.
maybe he will speak out after he get replaced...

[caesu]

I haven't read all the way back yet but has this been posted:

http://www.nu.nl/news/1461794/20/'Aruba_doorvoerhaven_van_hero%efne'.html

Little bit translated:

 Aruba transit port of heroin '
ORANJESTAD - Aruba is a transit port for heroin and to a lesser degree of cocaine. Drug use on the island, also under tourists, remains a point of care. That stands in a report which The international Narcotics Strategy Friday to the American congress in America to report (INSCR) have offered. The report over the year 2007 has been made Monday public.
 
Cruising ships
The drugs would further be transported as from the island by means of cruising ships which put on Aruba and the daily flights as from the island to America and Europe. According to the report Aruba is interesting for smugglers by the ' good infrastructure, excellent flight connections and relatively light punish for drug trafficking in relatively good circumstances '. The report communicates that Aruba has crime indeed little, but that becomes clear that from crime research in 2007, ' prominent on the island has established drug traffickers '.
------------


Sounds like business as usual in Aruba.

yes that's the report a posted a page back.
report from united states department of state to the congress.
quite good reading imo.

[JE]

Short summary:
He was just on..nice interview. No real news / scoops; just a conversation about De Wereld Draait Door (not related to Natalee) - wine throwing incident - the Pauw & Witteman interview and that he has regular contact with Beth.

Robert Jensen made the comment that after the confession nothing seemed to have happened. Peter said that before the case was closed, Joran wanted to claim money etc and now the investigation is open again; he is a murdersuspect & that they're working very hard on the case (and the way he said it made it look like he is in contact with people who are doing the investigation...but that's not really a surprise...) but results aren't there overnight.
Peter also stated that after he went to Aruba to investigate, talk to people, see the surroundings were it all happened he was sure that Joran knew more...if you've got nothing to hide / are innocent you don't keep your mouth shut...

They also talked about Jorans' parents...they claimed in the Pauw & Witteman interview they would have brought Joran to the police if they thought that he had something to do with it or knew more...Peter joked: Well they still have to go!

Thanks GMBW and a belated welcome to the board. One thing that has been persistently missing in the Dutch media is the corruption angle in Aruba. It's so damn obvious. I wish they would jump on that more. I hope this is something Peter is working on behind the scenes.

I think the problem with "western" democracies is that the powers that rule want everyone to believe that corruption is a problem of third world countries. It only happens in the "bananna republics " of this planet. In our civilized societies, Europe, the US etc there is no such thing. WRONG it happens everywhere at all levels. Most people in power have a personal agenda. Be it money, a need for power, status, whatever. We just seem to have a notion that it is better, so that no one is embarrassed, to promote people that are under suspicion of corruption away to another job or position. I firmly believe that the corruption angle is visible to the guy on the street but he or she simply does not have the means to do anything about it. The people in power if pressured enough will switch a few pawns around until the general public seems to be pleased with the solution they came up with, and then it's bussiness as usual.

[Peaches]

Caesu, that was fascinating.  Thank you.

[bluwaters]

Allow me to reiterate in case you missed my previous posting about our leaving and the pics at BFN:

John sent the pics to his sister who is an active poster at BFN.  I had nothing to due with it, I was traveling.  It wasn't intended to snub anyone, nor was there any harm intended by anyone.  I am not involved in the fund raising, nor do I wish to be. 
The views posted by anyone other than the search team does not reflect the views or opinions of the search team. I've done my best to keep the blog updated and reflective of our views. Recently, (past several weeks) my plate was overflowing and the blog suffered as a result in terms of content.  However, it is still carefully constructed and every word is in it's proper purposeful context. 
I will continue to keep it updated with news and updates as they unfold and as things develop. 

These few words speak * volumes * to me...OE is one crafty Monkey...I respect that...

I agree, Destiny.

Spot on. I don't believe for a minute that OE is naive about the internet either. At 25, he most likely cut his teeth on it. My teenagers were toddlers when I first got a PC and discovered the net. They are now the official techies in the household. DH and I call on them frequently to fix computer glitches. The young are incredibly sophisticated about computers and the internet, especially those of a scientific nature.

I really appreciate OE's explanation of how the photos got posted. Who would have guessed that the FBI released them?

[blah]

OE how long does it take to locate a given target with the rover-on average, assuming the boat is relatively close to it. How fast can it descend into the depths? And what about the density of the remaining targets, are they close, scattered, clustered, radom?

The time it takes to dive and locate a target depends largely on sea conditions and water depth.  In water depth of 400 ft with moderate seas it was consistently taking 5 minutes to locate the target with the ROV based on the side scan data.  The coordinates I was giving the ROV pilot were consistently within a few feet of the actual target and often fell within the actual target.  This precision is only possible with perfect USBL (ultra-short baseline) acoustic navigation and very diligent working.  10 years ago this precision and resolution was not possible.  To answer your question it would take about a day, with daylight operations only, to dive on about 15-25 targets.  We would often "bounce dive" targets of little interest.  The dives are conducted in a combination of priority and distribution.  When targets are widely-spaced, location takes more control on operations.  When targets are close together, highest priority wins.  In any case, the top priority targets are done first regardless.   Basically, we had three levels of priority. 
P1 targets were targets interpreted to likely be a fish trap.  P2 targets were interpreted to be possible containers or a possible fish trap, but less clear.  P3 targets were targets of little interest, but deemed worthy of inspection. 

can you tell us how many P1 targets you guys have identified and not yet checked out?  Same with P2?
What do you feel the odds are that you folks will get the chance to go back and check them out?

[Observer]

Jo-ann I think you posted about friends of jurin's currently posting that his 2 younger brothers where in Netherlands with avds.  THANK YOU FOR THAT INFO!!!!!!  Many of us here were given that same info in June 2005 by people in aruba and not friends of the people of the ditch (love that name!).  Also a Monkey found out that 3 people of the ditch (3 van der sloots) flew from nl to aruba the day avds said she came home around June 1.  IMO, pvds needed his younger sons home for an alibi and that is when that story change.  Thanks again for posting that info.

Here are the posts from Fok.

Beth Holloway in Jensen tomorrow? I'll have a look.

kinkajoe
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:12 (#27)   
         
Op zaterdag 23 februari 2008 15:56 schreef mrBhimself het volgende:
En overigens Anita van der Sloot was helemaal niet in Amerika, maar was samen met haar jongste twee kinderen in Nederland op bezoek bij haar moeder. Je bent wederom eens slecht geinformeerd!
Volgens deze poster was Mw. v.d. Sloot met twee kinderen in Nederland.

 mrBhimself
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:56 (#28)   
                 
Inderdaad
Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters

Mr B says: "and by the way, Anita van der Sloot was not at all in America, but with her youngest two children in Holland to visit her mother. You are again very bad informed"

Kinkajoe quotes this sentence in a thread about the brothers and says: "according to this poster Mrs. v.d. Sloot was with two children in Holland".

Mr B came to the thread about the brothers to say: "Indeed, don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters".

Very interesting and that is what many believe that Anita was not in Holland alone. Kind of ridiculous to think she would leave a 10 year old home alone with Joran,especially after the things he does to the middle sibling. I suspect that it wasnt just Joran who was at play while Anita was away!

So why did Paulus lie under oath?

Well that lie was for himself as Deepak would say. No reason to lie about meeting Natalee and sitting next to her at the Black Jack table unless he had something to hide. I would suspect that is where the Premediated suspicions on his arrest were about,clearly he was trying to distance himself. If it is true the two younger brothers were in Holland that would be remarkeable that they were allowed to lie to the world about him and Joran being home alone.

Out of all the Interviews PVDS has done why hasn't anyone questioned him about the Supreme Courts ruling why he was denied his money? I think everyone would like to hear why he is on wiretaps,witnesses and from his own mouth that he picked up Natalee at 4AM and had two contacts with her.

[hotping]

Hi Kyle....Have You talked to Anyone on the Persistence today? I'm just wondering how Their trip is going so far and Praying that They get back to Louisiana safely....TIA

[GBMW]

Jo-ann I think you posted about friends of jurin's currently posting that his 2 younger brothers where in Netherlands with avds.  THANK YOU FOR THAT INFO!!!!!!  Many of us here were given that same info in June 2005 by people in aruba and not friends of the people of the ditch (love that name!).  Also a Monkey found out that 3 people of the ditch (3 van der sloots) flew from nl to aruba the day avds said she came home around June 1.  IMO, pvds needed his younger sons home for an alibi and that is when that story change.  Thanks again for posting that info.

Here are the posts from Fok.

Beth Holloway in Jensen tomorrow? I'll have a look.

kinkajoe
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:12 (#27)   
         
Op zaterdag 23 februari 2008 15:56 schreef mrBhimself het volgende:
En overigens Anita van der Sloot was helemaal niet in Amerika, maar was samen met haar jongste twee kinderen in Nederland op bezoek bij haar moeder. Je bent wederom eens slecht geinformeerd!
Volgens deze poster was Mw. v.d. Sloot met twee kinderen in Nederland.

 mrBhimself
donderdag 28 februari 2008 @ 18:56 (#28)   
                 
Inderdaad
Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters

Mr B says: "and by the way, Anita van der Sloot was not at all in America, but with her youngest two children in Holland to visit her mother. You are again very bad informed"

Kinkajoe quotes this sentence in a thread about the brothers and says: "according to this poster Mrs. v.d. Sloot was with two children in Holland".

Mr B came to the thread about the brothers to say: "Indeed, don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters".

Very interesting and that is what many believe that Anita was not in Holland alone. Kind of ridiculous to think she would leave a 10 year old home alone with Joran,especially after the things he does to the middle sibling. I suspect that it wasnt just Joran who was at play while Anita was away!

So why did Paulus lie under oath?

Uhmmm I don't know about this...a friend of someone I know was living in Aruba at the time (and knows Joran & his family...they're not in contact anymore...no wonder why). She told the person I know only his mother was in the Netherlands at the time.
All three of them had school etc. so it would make sense for them not to go along on this trip......and if they weren't home....who was online as 'Valentijn' - hotmail that night?

[oldfart]

I have to run out for the evening.  I'm not commenting more at this time about the trap or it's contents. 

1. Why not? You must be aware there is more speculation than facts in these forums.

2. If you refuse to comment on the contents we will have to assume, remains were found and your response is a legalistic "no comment"

Oh come on Gang... give OE   a break... He has a job to do with certain rules in place!

Why keep asking him to break the rules?   Hell I bet he wants to talk about it but has enough integertiy NOT to.
JMO of course

[Kermit]

Same object that appears to be a skull with color removed and flipped the pic around

[caesu]

Short summary:
He was just on..nice interview. No real news / scoops; just a conversation about De Wereld Draait Door (not related to Natalee) - wine throwing incident - the Pauw & Witteman interview and that he has regular contact with Beth.

Robert Jensen made the comment that after the confession nothing seemed to have happened. Peter said that before the case was closed, Joran wanted to claim money etc and now the investigation is open again; he is a murdersuspect & that they're working very hard on the case (and the way he said it made it look like he is in contact with people who are doing the investigation...but that's not really a surprise...) but results aren't there overnight.
Peter also stated that after he went to Aruba to investigate, talk to people, see the surroundings were it all happened he was sure that Joran knew more...if you've got nothing to hide / are innocent you don't keep your mouth shut...

They also talked about Jorans' parents...they claimed in the Pauw & Witteman interview they would have brought Joran to the police if they thought that he had something to do with it or knew more...Peter joked: Well they still have to go!

Thanks GMBW and a belated welcome to the board. One thing that has been persistently missing in the Dutch media is the corruption angle in Aruba. It's so damn obvious. I wish they would jump on that more. I hope this is something Peter is working on behind the scenes.

I think the problem with "western" democracies is that the powers that rule want everyone to believe that corruption is a problem of third world countries. It only happens in the "bananna republics " of this planet. In our civilized societies, Europe, the US etc there is no such thing. WRONG it happens everywhere at all levels. Most people in power have a personal agenda. Be it money, a need for power, status, whatever. We just seem to have a notion that it is better, so that no one is embarrassed, to promote people that are under suspicion of corruption away to another job or position. I firmly believe that the corruption angle is visible to the guy on the street but he or she simply does not have the means to do anything about it. The people in power if pressured enough will switch a few pawns around until the general public seems to be pleased with the solution they came up with, and then it's bussiness as usual.

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007

and then on the corruption preception index aruba is put together with the netherlands and all is fine.
but all countries surrounding aruba are bright red.

and i think the justice system on aruba is very different from the netherlands for quite a few reasons so they shouldn't put it together with the netherlands. there's a different book of law and a independent OM.
they share the same queen and the same supreme court, but the supreme court reverts back to lower court, doesn't handle cases themselves.
and also the colonial contract judges and prosecutors make things different.
they don't send aruba judges of prosecutors to the netherlands for 3 years or do they?

[Kermit]

ribbit kyle

great work

I enjoy your posts etc.