Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 - 3/5/08

[Bearlyhere]

O/T  Oh, no, NOT AGAIN!!!

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN BIRMINGHAM HAS ISSUED A TORNADO WARNING FOR WEST CENTRAL WALKER COUNTY IN CENTRAL ALABAMA EASTERN FAYETTE COUNTY IN WEST CENTRAL ALABAMA NORTH CENTRAL TUSCALOOSA COUNTY IN WEST CENTRAL ALABAMA.


Note this is a warning and not a watch.  That means there is one or more actually on the ground.

Signing off and battening down the hatches!  All Alabama monkeys, be safe!

.

Oh no!  I am sorry to see this.  I will send out prayers right away.  Please let us know you are safe.

[Shell]

OT~Has someone already spoken for the mermaid avi (ariel). I am using it until I hear otherwise.

[GBMW]

You know Peter much better than we do being in Holland, but we have heard that he not only investigates murders with vigor but like to bust the occasional corrupt politician as well. Is this true?
[/quote]

he did so many cases.
http://www.peterrdevries.nl/tekst/dossierindextot.htm

about corrupt officials, right out of my head:

1. exposed a public prosecutor (Tonino) with child porn on his computer. Tonino put his computer with the garbage, that's how peter r. got hold of the computer. the public prosecutor got suspended.

2. exposed the upcoming reserve queen (mabel wisse smit) as having a relationship with dutch biggest gangster Klaas Bruinsma in the 80s. mabel wisse smit lied about this to the prime minister Balkenende. prince johan-friso (son of queen beatrix) lost his right to the dutch throne because of this.

3. exposed dutch secret service (AIVD) trying to frame the later assassinated pim fortuyn as if he had sex with underage drugs addicted moroccan boys.
(pim fortuyn got assassinated a week before the elections as he was leading the polls)

4. exposed dutch board of procureurs generaal violating parking rules right outside the dutch OM headoffice.

5. exposed officials of the dutch police national headquarters violating parking rules outside the hq's.
head of police promised change. year later the violating was still going on.

6. exposed a police officer (possible drugging and) changing the will (testament) of multiple old, dying people so he inherited their money / real estate.

i am sure i forgot something.

most of these involved hidden camera.
[/quote]

caesu: good summary!  I think Peter R. de Vries is one of the few in the media that's doing his own research in this case. And doing a good job!
From Jorans' point of view: in the club Manhattan he said of Peter R. de Vries (the night when the 'confessionshow' was anounced he went to a party in Arnhem) "he's trying to ruin my life"

[KarmaRoundUp]

If Natalee's remains have been recovered ... somebody need to tell Tim Miller.  As of February 27, 2008 ... Tim's impression was that there were 169 targets which still needed to be searched.

Janet

+++++++++++


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

Transcript - Heli (RU)

Maybe we aren't allowed to know just yet.  Maybe they need more confirmation.

I don't believe they have found Natalee's remains. I see and visit with Beth's Mom at least once a week, usually more, and she could not keep that secret. There are plenty or real mysteries with which to deal. It would be great though. I have a feeling that Beth would be with her Mom if that had happened as well.

I also don't think they found Natalee's remains but why would they even bother sending those 6 images to the FBI unless something was found?

[GBMW]

Peter R de Vries on Robert Jensen Show

-talking about the book-incident on DWDD, they show the clip
-tomorrow Beth will be on, pre-recorded, Beth told Robert that she's very grateful to Peter
-behind the scenes a lot going on, investigation re-opened
-Joran still murder-suspect
-cannot be solved within one week, takes time
-Robert could tell that when Joran was on his show, that he was holding back, 99% of the audience felt that too, not that he was lying but he was holding back information, he knew more than he was letting on
-Peter's investigation in 2006, was clear to Peter then that Joran was involved, it's strange that Joran wanted to remain silent, if you're innocent all you want to do is tell the truth, not remain silent. Joran couldn't answer the simplest questions
-Peter asked questions on P&W-show (wine incident) Joran couldn't or wouldn't answer
-Peter's wife said to Anita on P&W-show, while she was helping Peter getting wine out of his eyes: "You educated your son well" in a very sarcastic way
-Peter still talks to Beth on a regular basis

HAHAHA!
I knew Peter's wife said something sarcastic to anita,thank you Jo-An

Anita's reply was: it seems like i didn't

JE   
Did Anita really say that? Are you making a joke?
If she really gave that answer, it sounds like she may be finally beginning to get a clue!
Wow! Anita - snap out of it 

I think she's slowly getting it...she's even quoted saying (after the Peter R. de Vries show) that they will try to continue living their lives the best way they can.."We have 2 other sons you know". And the fact his parents didn't come to Holland after the show to visit him and hardly spoke with Jorans lawyers...that's also telling.
Jorans grandfather did have some weird comments on a radio-interview on BNR Radio after the show though....he was defending Joran. When the interviewer was talking about the wine incident: When Joran threw a glass of wine: his grandfather interrupted and said something like: Well don't exaggerate; it was only a little bit....and talking of his confession he said something like: well he's just a 20 year old kid...nothing special about the way he's talking etc. Sorry; don't know the exact words anymore but it was quite despicable in words and tone of voice...I turned the radio off...

[Jo-An]

caesu: good summary!  I think Peter R. de Vries is one of the few in the media that's doing his own research in this case. And doing a good job!
From Jorans' point of view: in the club Manhattan he said of Peter R. de Vries (the night when the 'confessionshow' was anounced he went to a party in Arnhem) "he's trying to ruin my life"

Well duh... how many lifes has Joran ruined so far?! 
Djeez... making himself to be the victim... so typical...

[Silverfox]

Someone asked about "relevance" ...

This is as close as I can come to relevance...

This region of South America is unstable.  It has been for a long time.

The Island of Aruba has a longstanding and documented history with the Mafia and with drug trafficking, money laundering and human trafficking.

The island is a mere (13 miles?) from the coast of Venezuela and Columbia, making it a hub for illegal activities.

This group at SM basically feels that Natalee was drugged with a date rape drug.

Where do drugs of this sort come from?  The candy man.  Who is the candy man?  Drug dealers.

The same group feels she may have died from a reaction from this drug.  Who had the most to lose if this were true?  The perp as well as anyone who might have sold it.

This group also feels that there has been an enormous coverup extending not only among LE but also to the judiciary and indeed, to high elected officials.  Why would there be a cover-up?  Because there is corruption.  Why is there corruption?  Because there are probably "bribed" officials as well as officials who might be in the "business" as well.

It is rumored that Chavez and or his cronies/allies are also into drug trafficking.  just because he is the elected head of Venezuela does not mean he is beyond side "money-making" ventures, i.e. corruption, payoffs and trafficking, laundering activities...Sure he nationalized "petroleum" but what if he could take his "illicit activities funds" and use these to fund "covert" operations to take over an entire continent.  Remember, many of the Columbian drug cartels escaped U.S. and Columbian arrests by seeking refuge in Venezuela under the protective arm of it's leader.

There is undoubtedly a "nexus" (connection) between the people who fuel Chavez also fuel FARC and also tie in with trafficking in this region.  This is what we are learning from the Columbian government now -- that they can tie in this connection because of seized computer records from the headquarters of the recently killed FARC official.  This is also why Chavez rattles the saber of war by calling for 10 battalions of troops along the V & C border.

This "corruption" obviously also spreads to the Island of Aruba -- well known and identified by Interpol, the US and other organizations to indeed be the hub for such illicit activities, especially considering it's dark past.

This means that certain high placed law enforcement and governmental officials may be "on the take" so to speak.

If we hypothesize that Paulus, as a high ranking official and former assistant to RC, the highest government official on the island, might possibly be "dirty" then it stands to reason that this man "called in some favors" to protect his son -- hence the cover-up.

Many people had something to lose if it failed -- including the possibility of a a threat to expose all if the help was not granted (bribery, extortion, whatever).  Methinks Aruba is a paradise of "owemes" ...You scratch my back and I will scratch yours...Anyone who is anybody there has something on somebody else, hence the silence on the reward.  The big guys have the money -- anyone who might want to expose the truth is eliminated (certain reporters and cameramen committing "sucicide" -- bank tellers dying -- people disappearing or suddenly retiring, etc....


It all adds up.

If you consider the idea that the US has been working with certian Dutch and possibly Aruban authorities to bring down the drug trafficking and as a result found high placed connections to Chavez, the cartels, and political instability then it becomes apparent that Natalee may have been caught at the wrong place at the wrong time and in the interest of National Security the U.S. and certain high placed investigators from the Netherlands and Aruba just want to not pursue her situation because the real target is and has been Chavez and the drug cartels all along.

Chavez apparently inherited Noriega's business and power base. 

But, due to the work of SM, the Persistence and the Holloway family this chapter just will not go away.

Now there is the possibility that the Persistence may have document evidence of drug drop-off locations.  All because of a search for a missing 18 year old girl from Alabama, USA.

The video tapes of all those targets is a gold mine of information, undoubtedly, for the good guys.

So yes, there is relevance...

It just took the crossed timing events of the Persistence and it's discoveries to be linked with the killing of a highly place revolutionary to expose this incredible unfolding of events.  Remember, Columbia claims it can now prove through this documentation that FARC was getting it's funding via Chavez via the drug cartels.  The long arm of those cartels obviously has had an influence on the Island of Aruba and indeed, in influencing the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

I would venture to guess that most of this the family already knows and has had to keep under their hats.  Why else would a U.S. Senator suddenly drop  his query into her disappearance after meeting with the Aruban delegation were it not National Security related.

That is why it might be relevant.

Just my Humble Opinion. 

[Tater]

Bearly,
Makes as much sense as anything else has lately.  I agree that Joran gets personal and graphic in an attempt to make himself believable, at least it does in his own mind.  He also parrots things his parents have told him like not to have sex without a condom in an further attempt to convince them he is telling the truth.  Plays them like a violin.

jmo

I guess I'm just not one for the grand conspiracies involving everybody on the island.  For me, it's still a very simple crime committed by a garden variety punk.  Joran and Paulus did it.

As Frank used to say No Sloot, No Justice.  I still adhere to that line of thought.

Getting a headache, too.  Maybe BUI is the way to go after all.

 

I agree with this only I include the Kalpoe brothers.Sometimes it seem's they are diminishing from the crime by laying low and I'd like to see them front and center where they ought to be.Joran,Kalpoe's, and Paulas,the major players..I also don't believe Natalee is in the water.It's my opinion she was in the dump and probably what's left of her,still is....All this drug business is just side tracking.Like my Dad used to say,making mountains out of mole hills,,JMO of course..

[Bearlyhere]

Someone asked about "relevance" ...

This is as close as I can come to relevance...

This region of South America is unstable.  It has been for a long time.

The Island of Aruba has a longstanding and documented history with the Mafia and with drug trafficking, money laundering and human trafficking.

The island is a mere (13 miles?) from the coast of Venezuela and Columbia, making it a hub for illegal activities.

This group at SM basically feels that Natalee was drugged with a date rape drug.

Where do drugs of this sort come from?  The candy man.  Who is the candy man?  Drug dealers.

The same group feels she may have died from a reaction from this drug.  Who had the most to lose if this were true?  The perp as well as anyone who might have sold it.

This group also feels that there has been an enormous coverup extending not only among LE but also to the judiciary and indeed, to high elected officials.  Why would there be a cover-up?  Because there is corruption.  Why is there corruption?  Because there are probably "bribed" officials as well as officials who might be in the "business" as well.

It is rumored that Chavez and or his cronies/allies are also into drug trafficking.  just because he is the elected head of Venezuela does not mean he is beyond side "money-making" ventures, i.e. corruption, payoffs and trafficking, laundering activities...Sure he nationalized "petroleum" but what if he could take his "illicit activities funds" and use these to fund "covert" operations to take over an entire continent.  Remember, many of the Columbian drug cartels escaped U.S. and Columbian arrests by seeking refuge in Venezuela under the protective arm of it's leader.

There is undoubtedly a "nexus" (connection) between the people who fuel Chavez also fuel FARC and also tie in with trafficking in this region.  This is what we are learning from the Columbian government now -- that they can tie in this connection because of seized computer records from the headquarters of the recently killed FARC official.  This is also why Chavez rattles the saber of war by calling for 10 battalions of troops along the V & C border.

This "corruption" obviously also spreads to the Island of Aruba -- well known and identified by Interpol, the US and other organizations to indeed be the hub for such illicit activities, especially considering it's dark past.

This means that certain high placed law enforcement and governmental officials may be "on the take" so to speak.

If we hypothesize that Paulus, as a high ranking official and former assistant to RC, the highest government official on the island, might possibly be "dirty" then it stands to reason that this man "called in some favors" to protect his son -- hence the cover-up.

Many people had something to lose if it failed -- including the possibility of a a threat to expose all if the help was not granted (bribery, extortion, whatever).  Methinks Aruba is a paradise of "owemes" ...You scratch my back and I will scratch yours...Anyone who is anybody there has something on somebody else, hence the silence on the reward.  The big guys have the money -- anyone who might want to expose the truth is eliminated (certain reporters and cameramen committing "sucicide" -- bank tellers dying -- people disappearing or suddenly retiring, etc....


It all adds up.

If you consider the idea that the US has been working with certian Dutch and possibly Aruban authorities to bring down the drug trafficking and as a result found high placed connections to Chavez, the cartels, and political instability then it becomes apparent that Natalee may have been caught at the wrong place at the wrong time and in the interest of National Security the U.S. and certain high placed investigators from the Netherlands and Aruba just want to not pursue her situation because the real target is and has been Chavez and the drug cartels all along.

Chavez apparently inherited Noriega's business and power base. 

But, due to the work of SM, the Persistence and the Holloway family this chapter just will not go away.

Now there is the possibility that the Persistence may have document evidence of drug drop-off locations.  All because of a search for a missing 18 year old girl from Alabama, USA.

The video tapes of all those targets is a gold mine of information, undoubtedly, for the good guys.

So yes, there is relevance...

It just took the crossed timing events of the Persistence and it's discoveries to be linked with the killing of a highly place revolutionary to expose this incredible unfolding of events.  Remember, Columbia claims it can now prove through this documentation that FARC was getting it's funding via Chavez via the drug cartels.  The long arm of those cartels obviously has had an influence on the Island of Aruba and indeed, in influencing the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

I would venture to guess that most of this the family already knows and has had to keep under their hats.  Why else would a U.S. Senator suddenly drop  his query into her disappearance after meeting with the Aruban delegation were it not National Security related.

That is why it might be relevant.

Just my Humble Opinion. 

It wasn't me, but thank you for taking the time to post this and clarify things.   

Things that make you go:

 

...and make my heart ache more for Natalee and her family.  [broken heart emoticon]

[Silverfox]

...  For me, it's still a very simple crime committed by a garden variety punk.  Joran and Paulus did it...I also don't believe Natalee is in the water.It's my opinion she was in the dump and probably what's left of her,still is....All this drug business is just side tracking.Like my Dad used to say,making mountains out of mole hills,,JMO of course..

You are entitled to your opinion of course.  Actually I agree with you but you know what?  There is and has been a cover-up to protect these two and one has to wonder why, right?

From the very beginning an alleged US DEA was involved -- doors were closed on fact-finding -- and more than once it has been leaked by Mos and others that the deadly triangle of that DEA agent, Nat's family and the publicity caused by mass media have hindered the investigation and prosecution.

One has to ask why?  for such a simple situation involving father and son and (others?)....

There are reasons why people don't want people to find out things -- and that has to be because it is perceived by someone or someones very high up that there is a higher priority than justice for natalee at this point.  National Security would be the only thing that I can think of that keeps this powder keg hot.  Paulus used to be in a position under the Justice Minister to find out things -- or actually be involved in things that might involve turning your head the other way so that certain activities can take place -- hence now he needs a favor to protect his wayward and troubled son -- so he calls in the favor.

just as simple but ugly in the face of justice.  For now that happens to be my opinion and yes -- it is like dominoes and certainly if one falls many will fall, perhaps a couple of governments in the process.  All because of the 'persistence" to keep the heat up on a missing girl from Alabama.

I predict that this "simple" crime will make the history books.

[MumInOhio]

Siverfox...Lala's and I have discussed this in the Shango thread...somewhere...Both Paulus and Joran refer to Williams as fbi, Beth and Dave as dea, Joran has mentions in his book of US customs, twice, and even found a reference to an Agent Smitt from the Embassy...that one baffled me.

Things that make you go hmmmm!!!

[Silverfox]

Siverfox...Lala's and I have discussed this in the Shango thread...somewhere...Both Paulus and Joran refer to Williams as fbi, Beth and Dave as dea, Joran has mentions in his book of US customs, twice, and even found a reference to an Agent Smitt from the Embassy...that one baffled me.

Things that make you go hmmmm!!!

Yep, and don't forget the alleged phone taps that cost Paulus his judgment monies on appeal..who would have been tapping into the system on the night Natalee disappeared?  That could have also explained why the early and sudden appearance by the "DEA agent on vacation" (wasn't that convenient?) to greet the Holloways when they arrived and then even help escort them around? 

[mojo]

good analysis silverfox. would also explain paulus' apparent belief that he could game the system.

[MumInOhio]

Siverfox...Lala's and I have discussed this in the Shango thread...somewhere...Both Paulus and Joran refer to Williams as fbi, Beth and Dave as dea, Joran has mentions in his book of US customs, twice, and even found a reference to an Agent Smitt from the Embassy...that one baffled me.

Things that make you go hmmmm!!!

Yep, and don't forget the alleged phone taps that cost Paulus his judgment monies on appeal..who would have been tapping into the system on the night Natalee disappeared?  That could have also explained why the early and sudden appearance by the "DEA agent on vacation" (wasn't that convenient?) to greet the Holloways when they arrived and then even help escort them around? 

And Joran on some sort of 'Watch List' when he landed in New York.

[Rob]

Good Morning,

My *feelings* on this Mr. Farro are ~ he is a straggler from the North Valle Cartel. When the major round up occurred last summer and fall it was divulged that the Cartel had over 1500 business entities. Many in Miami and Oranjestad.

Someone was running the nuts and bolts of that operation, maybe that was Mr. Farro. jmo

Grande did a lot of research on the North Valle Cartel and "Plain View". This is not new for most of us, but since we have new members, I'm posting it again.







Luis Mansur - not sure if this is Jossy's brother. We all know of his troubles.


There is more located here.
http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h254/chicagoutfit/?start=all

An interesting side note to the Cartel, is when the round-up occurred, it paved the way for the FARC to take over completely. They had no competition.

[Bearlyhere]

Bearly,
Makes as much sense as anything else has lately.  I agree that Joran gets personal and graphic in an attempt to make himself believable, at least it does in his own mind.  He also parrots things his parents have told him like not to have sex without a condom in an further attempt to convince them he is telling the truth.  Plays them like a violin.

jmo

I guess I'm just not one for the grand conspiracies involving everybody on the island.  For me, it's still a very simple crime committed by a garden variety punk.  Joran and Paulus did it.

As Frank used to say No Sloot, No Justice.  I still adhere to that line of thought.

Getting a headache, too.  Maybe BUI is the way to go after all.

 

I agree with this only I include the Kalpoe brothers.Sometimes it seem's they are diminishing from the crime by laying low and I'd like to see them front and center where they ought to be.Joran,Kalpoe's, and Paulas,the major players..I also don't believe Natalee is in the water.It's my opinion she was in the dump and probably what's left of her,still is....All this drug business is just side tracking.Like my Dad used to say,making mountains out of mole hills,,JMO of course..

That's amazing so many understood that.  I think we've been in this cage together too long.

 

[Tater]

I think most of us for most of our lives have always known about the Columbian drug cartels and the movement of drugs from there.We have spent billions of dollars trying to stop it but to no avail.It seems to me if Paulas called in a favor which is very likely he did,finding the remains of Natalee would be a lost cause.Why take her out into 90 feet of water when they have full capability of taking her out so deep  it would be impossible to ever find her.Why stop at 90 when they could go further out into the thousands depth?This is what makes no sense to me..At 90 she could be found,deeper,not so..Yoran in the confession tapes say's Dumped her,*dump,dump,dump*..Sometimes the obvious stays right under our noses.I think it all went South here..

Dave: That’s coming from Chief Dompig himself.

Abrams: So the chief is telling you to look in a particular area.
Do you want to tell us where generally or how he is coming up with these areas?


Dave: Well, of course it’s no secret now. He indicated we needed to center our effort and time in the ocean and that’s what we are doing.

Abrams: Why haven’t the Aruba authorities looked in these areas?

Dave: Well, I don’t think they have the capabilities of doing what we’re trying to do. We’ve got some people from the Unites States in that have sonar search capabilities and the Aruba authorities don’t. So, that’s what we’re doing.

Abrams: How long are you going to stay there Dave?

Dave: Well, I’m scheduled to go back Thursday. In fact, Tim Miller and I came over here to plan a search for the dump area. After we met with the police authorities, we were redirected to search out in the ocean. I’ve extended my trip now by seven more days. I intend to come back possibly by Thursday, who knows? I think Texas Equusearch is going to stay to the end.

Abrams: Dave good luck, it sounds like chief Dompig certainly hasn’t given up on this. He sounds like he’s ready to haul Deepak right back in there.

Dave: I don’t believe any of us are going to give up. So, it’s a matter of we’re going to see it to the end.

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/10/25/dave-holloway-yes-for-the-first-time-we-have-gotten-some-guidance-on-what-areas-to-focus-our-search-efforts-on/


We all know for sure Dompig has had the best intentions from the start,right? Redirect,redirect,redirect..That's exactly what happened.Dave was way to close to finding Natalee way back then..  Just my opinion of course..

[Tater]

Bearly,
Makes as much sense as anything else has lately.  I agree that Joran gets personal and graphic in an attempt to make himself believable, at least it does in his own mind.  He also parrots things his parents have told him like not to have sex without a condom in an further attempt to convince them he is telling the truth.  Plays them like a violin.

jmo

I guess I'm just not one for the grand conspiracies involving everybody on the island.  For me, it's still a very simple crime committed by a garden variety punk.  Joran and Paulus did it.

As Frank used to say No Sloot, No Justice.  I still adhere to that line of thought.

Getting a headache, too.  Maybe BUI is the way to go after all.

 

I agree with this only I include the Kalpoe brothers.Sometimes it seem's they are diminishing from the crime by laying low and I'd like to see them front and center where they ought to be.Joran,Kalpoe's, and Paulas,the major players..I also don't believe Natalee is in the water.It's my opinion she was in the dump and probably what's left of her,still is....All this drug business is just side tracking.Like my Dad used to say,making mountains out of mole hills,,JMO of course..

That's amazing so many understood that.  I think we've been in this cage together too long.

 

 

[mojo]

was the guy producing drugs or just money laundering?? or both.

http://www.visitaruba.com/facts/community/health.html

..... Landslaboratorium Aruba

Landslaboratorium Aruba or the Public Health Laboratory (PHL) of Aruba has three main departments; Clinical Chemistry & Hematology-, Microbiology & Infection Serology and Pathology. The Clinical Chemistry & Hematology department is located in the Horacio Oduber Hospital and gives a 24-hour service to inpatients.

[Bearlyhere]

Bearly,
Makes as much sense as anything else has lately.  I agree that Joran gets personal and graphic in an attempt to make himself believable, at least it does in his own mind.  He also parrots things his parents have told him like not to have sex without a condom in an further attempt to convince them he is telling the truth.  Plays them like a violin.

jmo

I guess I'm just not one for the grand conspiracies involving everybody on the island.  For me, it's still a very simple crime committed by a garden variety punk.  Joran and Paulus did it.

As Frank used to say No Sloot, No Justice.  I still adhere to that line of thought.

Getting a headache, too.  Maybe BUI is the way to go after all.

 

I agree with this only I include the Kalpoe brothers.Sometimes it seem's they are diminishing from the crime by laying low and I'd like to see them front and center where they ought to be.Joran,Kalpoe's, and Paulas,the major players..I also don't believe Natalee is in the water.It's my opinion she was in the dump and probably what's left of her,still is....All this drug business is just side tracking.Like my Dad used to say,making mountains out of mole hills,,JMO of course..

I haven't forgotten about K2 or Paulie the Perve. 

The reason the dump keeps coming back to me is because , IIRC, when Patrick asks where she is, Joran doesn't say-in the ocean.  He says the ocean is big.  That sent off so many alarms for me, I thought the fire department would show up.