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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 - 3/5/08  (Read 299426 times)
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Bladerunner
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« Reply #960 on: March 05, 2008, 01:53:10 PM »

Another thought I am having today is about things we have found, heard, seen in the news over the last two years and nine months.

I love our archives and they explain why we might think what we think but they do not always represent facts.  They are what that person may or may not have believed at that point in time and are subject to revision, more information coming to light and interpretation.

We know even sworn statements may contain incorrect information.  Just because was written somewhere at some time does not translate into being a fact.  It is just what it is, a statement by someone or something reported by someone at that time.

I say this recalling an interview with a member of ALE very early.  I can't recall where I could find this written down but I suspect that it is or was at one time.

Anyway, he said and I paraphrase:  At first we thought the American media were morons.  They couldn't get anything wrong and then I decided to give him (meaning Geraldo from memory) some false information so as to discredit him.  I thought that then no one would listen to him and he would go away.

We are not accustomed to this tactic in this country and would expect, unless part of a sting operation, LE to either tell the truth or use the no comment option.

That evidently was not always the case in the disappearance of Natalee.  We have to take everything with the proverbial grain of salt and in context of what someone said at the time.

That's why we can't make a timeline or list of known facts.  Becomes subjective almost immediately on to whom does one believe.  Multiple sources, witnesses all saying the same thing are always good but how often do we have that?

Goes back to Natalee seen leaving in the car with the suspects as the only well-established fact.  After that, it is all fuzzy because of even official sources, or what should have been official, giving wrong information.

jmo and something we might want to keep in mind throughout this.



.

Yes, but there is a path of least resistance when it comes to the mountain of circumstantical evidence in this case. The goal is to navigate that path and fill in the blanks given our convictions of belief that somethings could or could not have happened. I surmise that the scenarios laid out here involving what happened have almost crystalized to the point that we have a relatively complete picture of events. There are gaps for sure, but any half azzed prosecutor could take what is here and build a very strong case to present to a judge--and I'm talking about both the initial crime and the cover-up that ensued.
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Peaches
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~WE LOVE YOU PEACHES~


« Reply #961 on: March 05, 2008, 01:55:54 PM »

"ja, met joran" ("yes, this is joran and I am guilty")






He is a pos:)

but i love him as a bobble head:)

I'd love him as a target but the neighbors would frown on my taking target practice with a pump shotgun....bummer....
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« Reply #962 on: March 05, 2008, 02:04:08 PM »

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

Unions give the government till Friday

Police union SPA decided yesterday during a special meeting that they will also take part in the actions of SDU. 

ORANJESTAD – The cooperating unions in the SDU have rejected the government’s new proposal to meet on March 10.  They have given the government more time though.  The government has till March 7 instead of March 4 to plan a deliberation.  If they don’t, there will be actions, said SDU.

The employees of the National Lab, IPA, and Cadastre walked out today and other than the park rangers of the national part Arikok, also the personnel of Dak Riba Cabez and Traimerdia walked out yesterday.

Simar announced actions for Friday, Monday, and Tuesday if the government does not meet SDU’s deadline.  Also SADA (customs personnel) received the mandate to joint in the actions.

Premier Nelson Oduber (MEP), who at first said that the unions cannot just like that decide when to meet with the government, had sent SDU a new proposal for a meeting: Monday, March 10 at 11:30.  Moving the meeting date further up is not possible because the government does not have all the necessary data.  Oduber also calls on the unions to assume their social responsibility.

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klaasend
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« Reply #963 on: March 05, 2008, 02:06:41 PM »

http://www.amigoe.com/english/



Aruba more and more important as transshipment location for drugs

A huge amount of cocaine was intercepted on sea in February of 2007.  One huge catch can influence the statistics, but is not necessarily an indication for a certain tendency.

ORANJESTAD – Aruba functions to an increasing extent as a transshipment location for drugs that find their way via airplane or cruise ship to the United States and to a smaller extent, to Europe, states the International Narcotics Control Strategy Report for 2007 of the International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs of the American State Department that was published last Saturday.   

Aruba was only mentioned as transshipment location in the 2006 report.  According to the Bureau’s available data in the first 10 months of 2007, 390 kilo cocaine and 10 kilo heroine was intercepted.

The 2005 report also mentioned the interception of marihuana and XTC-pills, but these are no longer mentioned in the 2006 and 2007 report.  An increasing use of xtc by the youth is observed in entertainment places.  The production of narcotics in Aruba is not enough to be mentioned in the report.  According to the 2007 report, the Aruban government is pursuing a ‘dynamic anti-drug policy’, in close cooperation with her regional and international partners.   

Aruban justice has arrested and convicted a number of middlemen that delivered drugs to couriers.  The report doesn’t mention details or numbers.  Neither does the report mention the number of American citizens that tried to smuggle kilograms of drugs to the United States.   

The 2006 and 2007 reports vaguely mentioned the expansion of the facilities for the Forward Operating Location (FOL) to use at the airport.  The FOL tries to locate drug transportation from the air with airplanes of the American Air Force and Customs Department.  The 2007 report doesn’t even mention that expansion or that it still exists.

According to American justice, drug smuggling and its related money laundering practices and criminal violence continue to be a threat for Aruba and the Neth.Antilles.

Extending the Judicial cooperation between the American, Dutch, Antillean, and Aruban governments can contribute to lowering that threat on the islands and also to a broader joint fight against the drug criminality in the Caribbean.
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bleachedblack
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« Reply #964 on: March 05, 2008, 02:09:29 PM »


  "5 maart 2008
 Vanavond in Pauw & Witteman: Bram Moszkowicz, Sanderijn Cels en Jan Pronk".

So Bram Moszkowicz will be present toning at 22.05 (RTL5) in the Jensen show (together with Beth Holloway, Peter R de Vries and Patrick v.d. Eem) and in the Pauw and Witteman show at 23.05 (Ned. 1). 




Are there 2 famous lawyers last name Moszkowicz in the Netherlands? I notice
A. Moszkowicz defended Eduardo Mathews, Bram Moszkowicz is retained by Beth?
Just curious if anyone knows....TIA

>>>SNIP
Mr. Mathew has appealed his case and is currently awaiting the trial in the Supreme Court in the Netherlands and he is being represented by one of the best Attorneys in Europe Mr. A. Moszkowicz. Mr. Mathew also has a case against the Netherlands and Aruba in the European court of human rights and is being represented by Ms. J. Serrarens

http://tinyurl.com/3cw3t8
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #965 on: March 05, 2008, 02:11:22 PM »

My way of saying Janet is right:)

You catch on quick, PI.  Janet is very often right and can show you the link to boot!

Janet is a wealth of knowledge and documentation.  I am envious of her organizational skills.  Thank you Janet for keeping all this stuff together for those of us who can't.

Peaches ... you are welcome and ... thank you!

However ... I concede that that the massive backup quotes/links/articles that I have accumulated which are related to the Natalee Holloway case did not materialize out of a vacuum.  I have done hours of reading but ... much of my research has been derived from the research posts submitted by Natalee supporters to the Monkey cage and various Natalee forums that I have been associated with.  Along with the assistance of my Dutch American daughter-in-law ... I have attempted to organize the accumulated research and ... her husband (my youngest son) backs up my desktop files weekly. (I knew that God had a special purpose for this surprise package who came along when his siblings where in their mid and late teens.)

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Anna
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« Reply #966 on: March 05, 2008, 02:11:24 PM »

BB,
Could Bram be short for Abraham?
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All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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« Reply #967 on: March 05, 2008, 02:14:34 PM »

I thought Beth was tremendous in the Janssen Program and am looking forward to the second part.  Also the other talk show and then tomorrow the continuation of that assault on Patrick's character from Aruba.

I think Beth is a stellar contrast for the Dutch people to see and would suggest they compare and contrast with Joran's performance on tape to Patrick.

Off to work again. . . .
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PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
bleachedblack
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« Reply #968 on: March 05, 2008, 02:18:11 PM »

BB,
Could Bram be short for Abraham?

Could be, good thought.
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JE
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« Reply #969 on: March 05, 2008, 02:20:34 PM »

Moszkowicz is a lawyer family
father: Max
Sons: Abraham (Bram) there is also David, Max jr., and Robert
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JE
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« Reply #970 on: March 05, 2008, 02:24:08 PM »

Moszkowicz is a lawyer family
father: Max
Sons: Abraham (Bram) there is also David, Max jr., and Robert

forgot to add they re all lawyers
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Nut44x4
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RIP Grumpy Cat :( I will miss you.


« Reply #971 on: March 05, 2008, 02:24:54 PM »

just trying to get to 50 Razz
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Nut44x4
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RIP Grumpy Cat :( I will miss you.


« Reply #972 on: March 05, 2008, 02:25:34 PM »

oops, lmaoooo. Seeing double anyone? 
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bleachedblack
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« Reply #973 on: March 05, 2008, 02:25:44 PM »

Moszkowicz is a lawyer family
father: Max
Sons: Abraham (Bram) there is also David, Max jr., and Robert

forgot to add they re all lawyers

Thank-you
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katrien
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« Reply #974 on: March 05, 2008, 02:36:13 PM »

Beth Holloway is a victim of Renee Gielen, a reporter who writes terrible things about Beth. Of course it is not normal if someone starts a Mediacircus to tell lies about an innocent woman. Beth does not have to accept all the terrible things this Renee Gielen tells about her Natalee. On Witheet she placed one of her articles and on Geenstijl you can read other horrible things she writes about Natalee. I don't want to copy it here but there is enough reason to claim the people who write this, for it emotional damage done to Beth and her family.

In Holland it happened before in a murdercase. The end is still not there.
There was a woman murdered in a little town in Holland in 1999. From the guy who went to prison for it, loads of DNA was found on the blouse of the victim and there were also Y-chromosomes found under the nails of the victim.
There was no DNA from someone else found, nothing, but the man kept blaming an innocent man.
The police found much, much more evidence against the man who went to prison, but this is the Natalee forum and it is a  very long and complicated story. It was a setup.

Anyway, the guy kept telling he was innocent and pointed to another man who was totally innocent.
The guy who went to prison finally contacted a journalist and a mediaman.
These people started a mediacampagne to blame the innocent guy and later also his girlfriend.

I followed the case and the innocent man and his girlfriend went to horrible situations. People starting to behave terrible to this innocent man like trying to poison their dogs.
They started to ask the mediaman to stop accusing him. The mediaman did not stop.

The mediaman has to pay a lot of money now. But now he blames the police, the media, the politics, and the forensic institute (everybody) from fraud. This man is sick in the head.
People who asked critical questions on his website were intimidated and computers were hacked.

The journalist I am talking about in the above mentioned story, (he was one of the founders of the media-setup)  is the same journalist who wrote a terrible article about Patrick v.d. Eem and Peter R. de Vries. Besides that, I see the name of Renee Gielen turn up on the same sites this journalist is writing.

Coincidence?

If this Renee Gielen does not stop blaming the mother of Natalee, people will really start thinking that Natalee's mother and her family have something to do with the disappearance of Natalee.
This woman is accusing and blaming Natalee, her mother and her familie without any evidence and besides that, what this woman is claiming is total crap.
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klaasend
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« Reply #975 on: March 05, 2008, 02:41:07 PM »

Need to run out real quick - have to lock thread a bit early!




Please move to NCD# 740

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2673.0
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jackb
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« Reply #976 on: March 05, 2008, 02:41:49 PM »

I believe Jan Vanderstratten is as bad or worse than Palus Vandersloot.  Who is he to say he would arrest someone for "slandering" the population when he is about as criminal as anyone could get in more ways than one.  He needs to be behind bars with someone like Matthews.  That piece of gargbage thinks he is a dicataor over a whole country.  THERE IS NO GREATER EVIL IN THE LAND THAN INJUSTICE STANDING BEHIND THE BADGE OF THE LAW (a quote of Thurgood Marshall, I believe)  Jack

i would like to think that mos has been sitting on both jacobs and van der stratten after devries and beth and jug's info about the seizure questions....seems to me, this whole thing needs to go straight back to the beginning of this so-called investigation and it starts with those two. 

Word could have gotten back to the Vs from that PD where Patrick offered to do this. It is possible, but as someone just mentioned not on all the tape.  Palus probably found out about Joran's new friend and had him checked out.  It would not be unreasonable to think Palus had Joran followed or watched.  Joran did seem like he wanted to go into the dope business big time, so it stands to reason he may not be "big time" that way on the island anymore because of his mouth.  He probably thought he would set up shop in the NL were he was living.  Trying to get connections, etc.  It would be my guess he did think he had found him a "new best friend" at least for most of the tape and when Palus' watchdogs reported his new "best friend" Joran would not believe Palus until it started ringing true in about the last couple of sentences of what was shown on tv as to WHERE he had NH placed in the ocean.  I believe Joran almost told ALL of it to Patrick and then at the last decided to hedge on WHERE because he may not have known exactly or it hit him Patrick may have been gleaning infor from him and just in case decided not to mention the person's real name.  Their system is run by thugs and it is easier for the wicked to believe a lie than the truth. If that system goes down and the people are freed from the tyrrany of those "mob" like characters, I believe, as bad as this is NH would have been glad she helped free the decent people.  It will take years for the system to purge there even if it starts now.  That corruption runs deep, I am sure.       Jack blue
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