Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 - 3/7/08

[Anna]

Thanks to all for the terrofic translations.  We understand it is difficult and English is not your first language.

I wonder what we should write to Hero Brinkman concerning.  I have had excellent responses to emails sent to several high ranking officials in this investigation and want to be very careful in contacting him to impress him as a serious inquirer.

Has someone already directed him to our own Corruption and Collusion Thread?  How about the Murder and Crime thread?  Those might be good places to start?

[Lala'sMom]

Why was Joran in the driver's seat when the gardener saw them in the car?

(Yes, a dumb question..humor me.)

[Anna]

Anna very elaborate wow thx a lot

Incriminating kalpoes could be a reason. But what would be the point. it would be his word against theirs unless they decided to get the shoes for him and not return em and the police would find em at their home.

It is strange that in his PV he asks deepak or satish after they drop him off to go get the shoes??????

Leaving the shoes there to prove he was at the beach could make sense but then why did they tell the HI story first. Surely he could not have expected them to be there when he changed his story days later.

And why bring it up again with Patrick? Im puzzeled here too.

I ve been searching for an article or anything that says the police found one of the shoes in his home but i cant find it if anyone has it plz let me know.

And about letting Kalpoes off the hook so they can go ahead with their claim and be "nice" to him would imply that he knew about being taped while in the car with patrick.

It is strange that what he says on tape is not enough for a conviction because it is all lies. But to Kalpoes lawyers it seems to prove that their clients are not guilty and can pursue their claim????

I think Joran was implying the Kalpoes went back to get the shoes and found Natalee alone and they were last with her and did "something bad to her."  Instead of Joran.

If you read the transcripts of the HI, even Deepak at that time mentions shoes then takes it back.  Said he shot off his mouth about them to one someone then said he was talking about something else.  This is because they were not yet telling the FH story.

Evidently Joran, when questioned alone for the very first time was already telling the FHut story because ALE asked the Kalpoes about dropping him off at the beach while Kalpoes were still saying HI.  Another attempt by Joran to frame them and appear that he, Joran, was the only one telling the truth.

Joran had to have already told the ALE about the FH beach story for them to be asking the Kalpoes immediately about it.  It seems the minute the Kalpoes were out of sight, Joran was telling ALE FHut story instead of HI, hanging the K2 out to dry, he hoped.

[Anna]

I think the family and media were told things in the beginning that may or may not have always been true.  There was the spot of blood on Joran's shoe that was either never tested or was and it was determined to be Joran's own blood.

And the rumor also that he had a sizable cut on his left foot still when he was finally arrested.

Things like this I don't think we will ever know for a fact what happened, only what a particular individual said at the time. 

In other words, I am now convinced that ALE lied and lied deliberately to this family.  Not all of them but certainly some in a position to know better.  Or maybe they were overwhelmed themselves at the amount of information and incapable of keeping fact from rumor themselves.

Sorry way to run an investigation.

[Observer]

"The work of the Two Detectives(Castillo and Young) should be looked into seriously"..Dept of Justice Minister Rudy Croes..

[Blonde]

This is an interesting bit of info I don't recall hearing about before. Sure hope ALE followed up on this.......
 
>>>>SNIP

Three weeks ago, a tourist from North Carolina called me to ask me how to get in touch with police. She and her husband had been out exploring the island, and they came across a sneaker.

They knew investigators were looking for a pair of sneakers that belonged to van der Sloot. And, they knew the sneaker they spotted probably was just something someone left behind, but they couldn't let it go. She wanted to let police know about it.

http://tinyurl.com/3bkhpb

They should have sealed it and took it to our FBI, Aruba will toss it.

[WhiskeyGirl]

From RWV - press conference about shoe -

Sunday, July 31, 2005
Natalee Holloway Update: Missing Shoe

I've been informed that at a press conference today investigators have asked anyone that may have information as regards a sneaker - K-SWISS (White and Blue) size 14 possibly seen or found near the Marriott or the Fisherman's Hut area to please contact the Police.
Earlier reports have suggested that a search at the home of Joran Va der Sloot turned up a shoe which may have been covered with mud, or muck. The shoe had no match. The last bit of information hasn't been independently confirmed.
Sunday, July 31, 2005 at 05:53 PM in Natalee Holloway | Permalink

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/natalee_hollowa_91.html

[Anna]

Judge Wit is on record, I think in that same article where he said Dompig and Karen Janssen never asked for a full search of the Sloot compound, that now it would take a confession from Joran.

Well, he has it now and that's still not enough.

Oh, right!  Joran only confessed to disposal of a corpse because he is fully and legally a coroner now!

In Aruba 17 yo punks can declare you are dead and dump you in the drink and it's a misdemeanor.

And Hans doesn't seem to like the latest drug reports?  I wonder if he read the one from our DOJ saying one in five used cocaine in Aruba.  Remove the elderly and children and that's a high percentage of adults.

He wants to know of what that is based?  Tsk, tsk, Hans that goes to methods and sources and we don't tell those.

.

[Observer]

Why was Joran in the driver's seat when the gardener saw them in the car?

(Yes, a dumb question..humor me.)

My first guess would be they were taking turns with Natalee in the back seat,I doubt Deepak would let Joran drive so he was just sitting there temporarily. Second guess would be they saw lights from the gardners car coming and they all jumped in the Deepak's car,so they were not seen doing whatever outside of the vehicle. Third guess would be they were waiting for someone or killing time until whoever was done with Natalee if she was not in the vehicle.

If the Gardner is not lying,something Major was happening right when he went by them. If Natalee was safely somewhere else there would be no reason for them to be so paranoid when he drove by.IMO

[JE]

I think the family and media were told things in the beginning that may or may not have always been true.  There was the spot of blood on Joran's shoe that was either never tested or was and it was determined to be Joran's own blood.

And the rumor also that he had a sizable cut on his left foot still when he was finally arrested.

Things like this I don't think we will ever know for a fact what happened, only what a particular individual said at the time. 

In other words, I am now convinced that ALE lied and lied deliberately to this family.  Not all of them but certainly some in a position to know better.  Or maybe they were overwhelmed themselves at the amount of information and incapable of keeping fact from rumor themselves.

Sorry way to run an investigation.

Anna thx again for the explanation. Im gonna let the shoe story simmer for a while there's something i just cant put my finger on. Oh and BTW if they make you eat a bug for bringing it on again just give half of it to me LOL

[WhiskeyGirl]

Shoe speculation here -

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/01/ng.01.html

and

GRACE: To Jossy Mansur. What is it exactly, Jossy, they`re looking for in the pond? We know this pond had very little water in it at the time Natalee went missing, so it`s not a body.

MANSUR: I don`t know what they`re looking for. Some say a shoe. I don`t know what kind of a shoe. But from the information that we have from the police, they are looking for a body somewhere near there.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly, Susan Candiotti, please explain to us what is taking so long to drain the pond.

CANDIOTTI: Well, part of the problem, as I understand it, is that there`s ground water. I mean, we`re very close -- that pond is very close to the ocean here, I mean, a few hundred yards, let`s say. And so even though they`re draining, draining, draining, draining, I think that is part of the problem. That`s how Equusearch is explaining it. And so those pumps are going around the clock even as we speak, over my shoulder, but it`s too dark to tell. They`ve got some lights going on. So they`re trying the best they can to get it out.

Now, earlier today, they did bring in some equipment, including equipment that can determine methane gas, the presence of methane gas, which might indicate a body being present. But it turned up nothing. They`re going to try again tomorrow.

GRACE: Yes, when a body decomposes, it releases methane gas.

We`ll all be right back. We are live in Aruba.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/29/ng.01.html

[Anna]

SAN ANTONIO, Venezuela, March 5 (Reuters) - Trade between Colombia and Venezuela was limited to bare necessities on Wednesday, with Venezuela only allowing in perishable goods as tensions remained high in the Andean region's worst diplomatic crisis in years.

Venezuela on Wednesday sent tanks to the Colombian border to protest a Colombian military raid that killed a rebel commander in Ecuadorean territory, sparking the outrage of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez who says the move could lead to war.

Analysts say continued border restrictions could worsen Venezuela's nagging shortages of basic groceries and add to inflation that is already the highest on the continent.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN0536287320080305


And don't forget that the U. S. backed Colombian army is far superior in every regard to anything Hugo or his buddies have.  It would be an unmitigated disaster for him should actual combat break out.  That's the last thing he wants.

.

[Tamikosmom]

Why was Joran in the driver's seat when the gardener saw them in the car?

(Yes, a dumb question..humor me.)

Just speculating.

Maybe ... upon arriving at Deepak's parked vehicle after leaving an apparently deceased Natalee at the beach ... Joran, Deepak and (?) noticed the lights of the gardener's vehicle approaching and ... scrambled to get inside Deepak's vehicle ... seating was not a priority.

Janet

+++++++++


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 27, 2005

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/10/ng.01.htm

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": Well, he spoke very clearly of what he saw. He left his home, a standard home, where he lives really. And he was on his way to a room that he has at the house that he works as a gardener because that room has air-conditioning and it was very hot. When he left his home, he had to pass on the dirt road close to that pond that`s being drained now. And there was a car parked smack in the middle of that road, so he had to pass it at a very slow pace, climbing a little mound, and brought him within a yard of view in sight of the other car.

And he claims to have seen Joran behind the wheel, one of the two Kalpoe brothers beside him and the other Kalpoe brother in the back. And when they saw him pass that close, Joran threw up his hands to hide his face, and the other two ducked on the seats.

[Dayhiker]

duly noted JE.

I know others feel the same way, but it's a pleasure to have you all here with us and your help is immeasurable. Thank you again to the Dutch posters.

it's my pleasure to know you all...

And

Hi Dayhiker, my brother!!! ^5

Good to see you brudder and ditto on the call out to our Dutch friends. It is great to have them here and a breath of fresh air to have a fine group who are all on the same page as opposed to some in the past who have tried to derail the case by taking up for corrupt Aruban officials.

[JE]

From RWV - press conference about shoe -

Sunday, July 31, 2005
Natalee Holloway Update: Missing Shoe

I've been informed that at a press conference today investigators have asked anyone that may have information as regards a sneaker - K-SWISS (White and Blue) size 14 possibly seen or found near the Marriott or the Fisherman's Hut area to please contact the Police.
Earlier reports have suggested that a search at the home of Joran Va der Sloot turned up a shoe which may have been covered with mud, or muck. The shoe had no match. The last bit of information hasn't been independently confirmed.
Sunday, July 31, 2005 at 05:53 PM in Natalee Holloway | Permalink

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/natalee_hollowa_91.html

Thx WhiskeyGirl too bad it doesn't say who the I as in "I ve been informed is" it would be great to have an article where it says police found it at sloots home. The first sloot home search was on june 15th

[Dayhiker]

What i never could figure out is why he started this story about the shoes in the first place. Leaving his shoes at the beach or dumping them in a sewer or whatever only makes him look suspicious. Why did he not just get ridd of the shoes and simply not mention em to anyone. What's the big deal with these shoes. There is also the size 14 versus size 10 issue. It would have been so much easier just not to mention the shoes. Also if there was blood on his shoes that wouldn t that be on his clothes to? Cant imagine he walked home naked

There is only one reason I can think of that he'd change shoe size, JE, and that is to frame someone else. I think his shoes had blood/vomit DNA evidence on them and he had to get rid of them, but to switch sizes would mean he needed to deflect suspicion to somebody else with a different shoe size in case his were found.

To frame or protect someone else. I wonder what size shoes the other suspects have

Joran most likely lied about his shoe size just in case they ever did find his shoes in the culvert or wherever he stashed them. I remember Peter really hammered this lie and thought it was very significant. Once again, I can't see Joran mentioning it to Patrick unless it had some real significance, otherwise why even bring it up?

[WhiskeyGirl]

From RWV - press conference about shoe -

Sunday, July 31, 2005
Natalee Holloway Update: Missing Shoe

I've been informed that at a press conference today investigators have asked anyone that may have information as regards a sneaker - K-SWISS (White and Blue) size 14 possibly seen or found near the Marriott or the Fisherman's Hut area to please contact the Police.
Earlier reports have suggested that a search at the home of Joran Va der Sloot turned up a shoe which may have been covered with mud, or muck. The shoe had no match. The last bit of information hasn't been independently confirmed.
Sunday, July 31, 2005 at 05:53 PM in Natalee Holloway | Permalink

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/natalee_hollowa_91.html

Thx WhiskeyGirl too bad it doesn't say who the I as in "I ve been informed is" it would be great to have an article where it says police found it at sloots home. The first sloot home search was on june 15th

Would a press conference have been recorded?  Perhaps it was not in the English language? 

[Dayhiker]

SAN ANTONIO, Venezuela, March 5 (Reuters) - Trade between Colombia and Venezuela was limited to bare necessities on Wednesday, with Venezuela only allowing in perishable goods as tensions remained high in the Andean region's worst diplomatic crisis in years.

Venezuela on Wednesday sent tanks to the Colombian border to protest a Colombian military raid that killed a rebel commander in Ecuadorean territory, sparking the outrage of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez who says the move could lead to war.

Analysts say continued border restrictions could worsen Venezuela's nagging shortages of basic groceries and add to inflation that is already the highest on the continent.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN0536287320080305


And don't forget that the U. S. backed Colombian army is far superior in every regard to anything Hugo or his buddies have.  It would be an unmitigated disaster for him should actual combat break out.  That's the last thing he wants.

.

Can't see many US travel agents wanting to book trips for their clients to an ISLAND WITHIN 30 MILES OF A POTENTIAL WAR ZONE.  Oduber can piss off his front porch and wave to Hugo. This can't be good for any of the ABCs.

[Dayhiker]

Pauw & Witteman Show - Bram Moszkowicz is one of 3 guests

-Short clip of Beth talking about filing criminal and civil lawsuit against Joran (just a very short introduction video, recorded in Bram's office)
-(other guests... yaddayaddayadda... blahblahblah... ticktock ticktock...)
-a middleman contacted Bram on Beth's behalf, to investigate whether they can file a civil lawsuit
-Beth on tape, wants that Joran will be prosecuted, wants Joran behing bars, if that doesn't happen then civil action, there may be other young females on his path
-Bram says he's investigating civil suit: 85-90% chance that he will do it
-he needs to see if he has a true chance to win, Beth couldn't handle it if even the civil suit should be lost
-he says what Joran did in the tapes was confess, even if some people (OM Aruba) say he didn't, there's no doubt about it
-civil suit will be: 1)claim for shock damage 2)claim because of Joran's constant lying he was enabling others to put the blame on Beth (as in Beth was a "suspect" for a while)
-shock damage has to be confirmed by a psychiatrist, he has to determine that Beth suffered psychological damage
-What else do they want in Aruba? They have all they need!, says Bram
-They didn't have enough evidence without the confession tapes, and now even with the confession tapes they don't have enough evidence, Bram says that is simply unbelievable
-Beth on tape: imitating seizure, that's the part that's most difficult to watch
-Bram says he's extra motivated to do this case, he really feels for Beth
-Bram will file a complaint should the case be closed again in Aruba and Joran doesn't get arrested
-Bram promised Beth he will let her know whether he will file the civil suit within 2 weeks

My eyes and ears are spinning, this was a very hard conversation to follow even in Dutch, all these legal terms...

I'm off to bed now!!

Thanks again Jo-An for your update. GOOD TO SEE BRAM TRASHING THE POS PROSECUTOR!!! Can Peter be far behind with an investigation of the whole sordid bunch? I am sure Beth has much to tell them both.

[dennisintn]

"The work of the Two Detectives(Castillo and Young) should be looked into seriously"..Dept of Justice Minister Rudy Croes..

roflmfao, rudy has elevated the status of the psycho psychics to detective?  why does that not surprise me at all.  sounds like he inhaled some of his tooth powder this morning before going to work.
dennisintn