Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 - 3/7/08

[Rob]

Screen capture from 3-4-2008 show. At least that's how Carpe has it dated.



genoeg is genoeg - enough is enough

Poor Beth, she was crying here.

[Jo-An]

Pauw & Witteman Show - Bram Moszkowicz is one of 3 guests

-Short clip of Beth talking about filing criminal and civil lawsuit against Joran (just a very short introduction video, recorded in Bram's office)
-(other guests... yaddayaddayadda... blahblahblah... ticktock ticktock...)
-a middleman contacted Bram on Beth's behalf, to investigate whether they can file a civil lawsuit
-Beth on tape, wants that Joran will be prosecuted, wants Joran behing bars, if that doesn't happen then civil action, there may be other young females on his path
-Bram says he's investigating civil suit: 85-90% chance that he will do it
-he needs to see if he has a true chance to win, Beth couldn't handle it if even the civil suit should be lost
-he says what Joran did in the tapes was confess, even if some people (OM Aruba) say he didn't, there's no doubt about it
-civil suit will be: 1)claim for shock damage 2)claim because of Joran's constant lying he was enabling others to put the blame on Beth (as in Beth was a "suspect" for a while)
-shock damage has to be confirmed by a psychiatrist, he has to determine that Beth suffered psychological damage
-What else do they want in Aruba? They have all they need!, says Bram
-They didn't have enough evidence without the confession tapes, and now even with the confession tapes they don't have enough evidence, Bram says that is simply unbelievable
-Beth on tape: imitating seizure, that's the part that's most difficult to watch
-Bram says he's extra motivated to do this case, he really feels for Beth
-Bram will file a complaint should the case be closed again in Aruba and Joran doesn't get arrested
-Bram promised Beth he will let her know whether he will file the civil suit within 2 weeks

My eyes and ears are spinning, this was a very hard conversation to follow even in Dutch, all these legal terms...

I'm off to bed now!!

[Rob]

Good Night Jo-An and thank you for the summaries.

[Observer]

Thanks Jo-An..It is much Appreciated!

Bram sounds like da Man! All we need now is a Hero to step up in that Dutch Govt! 

[Silverfox]

We need to get this right:

No matter what Mos says Joran is no longer a suspect.

Joran was released as a suspect in December and can not be watched, listened to, or surveiled.

Until Joran is rearrested under suspision of a crime, he can not legally be a suspect.

Joran can not be rearrested until physical evidence or a verifiable witness can be found.

Joran is free of judicial suspision and is in no way a legal suspect.

Joran has not been charged with a crime and there is not and may never be a trial date.

The only effect on Joran is that he is a "persona non grata"


I dont agree with it but thats how it is, under their system.

That being the case then, Under Dutch law shouldn't Beth and her attorney be given full access to the investgative records and police reports?

Further, does this not make Joran a "public" (pubic) figure by his own doing and subject to full public scrutiny?

[KarmaRoundUp]

Karma, I agree with ya totally.

Sorry for the rant but I do feel better now.
 

[texasmom]

thanks Jo-An!

[ciskebab]

They didn't have enough evidence without the confession tapes, and now even with the confession tapes they don't have enough evidence, Bram says that is simply unbelievable

correction that has to be did

[Anna]

******* do you know the date when they were looking for it and where they found the bloody/muddy shoe?

I think I remember Beth saying that they found the one shoe in Joran's closet
and it had blood on it.

She most definetly said that and Beth added she never knew if they tested it or not or any results.

******* magnolia thx for your answers. I d still like to know a date if anyone has one. Shoe in closet size 14....mmm
JVDS has size 10.5 You dont suppose it could be someone elses shoe do you?

JE,

I guess we each have our theories as to what was up with the shoes.  I think they could have served a variety of things for Joran.

For one, he could go back Monday evening when he walked the route they supposedly drove in the beach area (what was he looking for?  Evidence, something they threw out the window or what?) and planted shoes at the Fisherman's Huts to "prove" his beach story was true.  He had just come from the Racket Club where he could have found/stolen the shoes.  Right brand, wrong size but who's to know that?

Then after planting the shoes to "prove" his FHut story, he says he asked first Deepak then Satish to go back and get his shoes.  Claims they both agreed to do so.  This means he told them that night and that would also be telling them that Natalee was alone on the beach.  Meaning the Kalpoes were in fact the last to be with her and not Joran. 

So we have the shoes proving Joran was at the beach when he may or may not have been and also that the Kalpoes went back for the shoes meaning they were "really" the last with Natalee instead of Joran.

It was a Dutch juvenile interrogator who determined Joran was in jail wearing not a Size 14 shoe at all but a 10.5.  So did Joran find/steal size 14's to use for his ruse.  Poster Adoron came up with that theory that perhaps Joran "found" a pair, right brand wrong size at Racketclub.

So in the beginning the shoes served two functions for Joran.  Placed him at the FHuts and implicated Kalpoes as last with Natalee.

Now he seems to have had a change of heart concerning the Kalpoes being framed as last to be with Natalee.  So he has himself disposing of the shoes on the way home.

Evidently he is now hoping the Kalpoes win their suit and are generous.

But why bring them up again to Patrick?  Since no one found the shoes on the beach and he was not able to prove the Kalpoes went back for them placing them last with Natalee, why did he start over again with the shoes to Patrick?

Here is an article Jossy wrote on the shoes and the changing size:


Case of Natalee: report shows formal deceit
Joran van der Sloot’s feet grow and shrink almost 4 sizes from one day to the otherDIARIO Aruba
05/08/2006



ORANJESTAD (AAN) --- Those of a little advanced or respectable age can still remember the time where there was an alcoholic beverage that was called ‘foot sweller’.

This alcoholic beverage, it was said, that those who drank too much of it, their feet swelled and because of this they called the drink ‘foot sweller’, but who can believe that in the year 2005 there are people in Aruba whose feet really swell or grow almost 4 sizes from one day to the other?

This was the case of the suspect Joran van der Sloot, who is currently peacefully studying in Holland and Aruba itself is stuck with the case of Natalee, and in the US they are trying in every way to organize and implement all sorts of boycotts and acts that could harm Aruba in the wide sense of the word.



This is not an attempt to cast guilt on Joran van der Sloot in the case of Natalee, but the fact is that the majority of people in the community is very angry in regards to the case of Natalee causing a negative impact on the economic situation, the image of the people of Aruba and surely, for the island’s tourism.


Too many changing declarations, formal deceit by the suspects and the very strange way in which the authorities, who have to be competent, have proceeded have today stuck Aruba in a very bad situation in regards to Natalee’s case and those who know the truth remain quiet believing that in this way, they can evade guilt of any involvement or any violation of the law.

From the copies of different police reports, today readers themselves can read how Joran van der Sloot, who until today for inexplicable reasons ‘supposedly’ left his expensive brand name running shoes at the beach on the night he was with Natalee, according to the version he gave police.

Police came up with the matter of the running shoes or it was Joran himself who started talking about the running shoes of an expensive brand name, size 14? From the police report of June 14, 2005, readers can read how Joran himself declared that he took off his size 14 running shoes and left them on the beach.

On June 29, 2005, he again repeated to police that he left his size 14 running shoes on the beach. The strange thing is that on August 2, 2005, after so many interrogations had already taken place, Joran van der Sloot in a car heading back to KIA, told a Dutch police officer who came to Aruba especially to interrogate the suspects, that Joran had on some K-Swiss running shoes that he borrowed from a fellow prisoner.

At no moment did the Dutch police officer ask Joran something, it was Joran himself who started talking with the police officer, as can been seen from the police report.

Now, the question is: was Joran brought from the first day to KIA shoeless and had no shoes to wear that it was a fellow prisoner who had to lend Joran a pair of running shoes?

Van der Sloot’s parents couldn’t bring shoes for Joran to wear, and someone from the prison had to lend him some shoes, and to top it all off they were K-Swiss brand?

By the way, at KIA they have to register, as in the majority of prisons around the world, what shoes and other belongings each person comes in with, yes or no? On August 8, 2005, the same Dutch police officer asked Joran to take off his shoe, which was a K-Swiss brand running shoe.

Joran asked to see his lawyer and wanted to find his lawyer’s support, but his lawyer didn’t even look at Joran and started to write (in local dialect, you deal with your problems!) After the Dutch police officer insisted, Joran took off the running shoe and handed it over across the table.

The police officer asked Joran how in the supposed day that he was with Natalee on the beach, he had size 14 K-Swiss running shoes, then how was the one that Joran put on the table size 10.5?

After Joran put his running shoe back on, the police pressed on the tip of the running shoes, and observed that the shoes were a good fit on Joran, and Joran didn’t react!

The matter of the size 14 K-Swiss running shoes is ‘too good to be true’. Was it the shark that Natalee supposedly wanted to see at the North shore that left with Joran van der Sloot’s size 14 running shoes?


// posted by Getagrip @ 5/10/2006 04:17:00 PM

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2006_05_07_archive.html


Until proven otherwise, I will have to go with Jossy on this.

I hope certain posters are not lurking as I have been told I have to eat a bug if I ever mention the shoes again and Robots is not here to do it for me this time!

.

[WhiskeyGirl]

******* do you know the date when they were looking for it and where they found the bloody/muddy shoe?

In the beginning of the case they were looking for one shoe only. They had another shoe with mud or blood on it,I forget which one it was. However when they did the pond search  in July,Dompig announced to everyone it was a pair of shoes they were looking for,so I did a double take and many others did at RWV as well. We never heard anything from the initial reports until the search at the Pond.

Somewhere deep in the archives you will see the initial reports of looking for one shoe,I am positive of that! They were trying to find the missing shoe is what we were told in the beginning.

This period on Aruba is known as the summer of "The Great Shoe Scare".  All shoes were suspect, none stepped forward.

[Rob]

They didn't have enough evidence without the confession tapes, and now even with the confession tapes they don't have enough evidence, Bram says that is simply unbelievable

correction that has to be did

Thanks ciskebab...

you know, the Sloots want Natalee on that beach for a reason and if she is ever found there will be some 'new' reason why Joran is not guilty.

I agree with Bram ~ unbelievable.

[Rob]

I hate to be so cynical, but at some point it almost seems as if Joran will say he was never on the beach with Natalee... and everyone will say WTF!!!

[Tamikosmom]

Didn't someone claim Yoran passed their house covered in mud from waist down in the wee hours of the morning?Shoe stuck in the mud?

Dave Holloway's words support my theory ... my theory that contends that when Joran, Deepak and (?) realized that Natalee was most likely deceased ... left her hidden in the Mangrove bushes ... ran across the street to the Racquet Ball Club where Deepak had parked his vehicle.  A panicked discussion ensued.  Paulus was contacted.  The gardener made his observation.

Janet

+++++++++++

Dave Holloway
NANCY GRACE
August 1, 2005[

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/01/ng.01.html

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, what they were doing, I think, was the pond that they drained, they feel like possibly he may have been cutting across the beach, back to the racquet club, and got stuck in the mud and lost his shoes.

That`s the only plausible explanation I could think of. The police have not told me specifically what the reasoning is, but, as you`re well aware, the gardener pinpointed them at the racquet club in her vehicle. So I think the shoes may have been lost, maybe cutting across the field from the beach area.

[caesu]

i found pauw/witteman with bram mosko exceptionally interesting.

it is late here now so i haven't got time to type much.

if there is no full transcript by tomorrow i will give it a try.
some words are really important to get translated correctly because it is all 'law-talk'.
he chooses his words very carefully of course. that shouldn't get lost in translation

bram mosko is 85-90% sure that he is going to take up to case.
his team is looking at it if the civil case has a chance of succeeding, because a victory for joran would be a disaster for beth. that just can't happen.
in two weeks time he is going to say if he is taking the case.
but he feels for beth he said at the end.
also a few clips of beth were taped while she was at bram mosko law office in amtsterdam.
(so i doubt she will go in pauw/witteman the coming days)

also if the OM drops the case he is going to sue the aruban OM. or protest it in some way. i don't know if it is actually called suing.

important thing is if the confession is as such that joran can be blamed for the shock caused to beth by not telling all these years what happened to her daughter.
he made a few strong points why the confession crucial.

for example he said. they did arrest joran before but they didn't have enough on him, but then they arrested him again and again they had to let him ago. they must have had reasons to arrest him twice.
so why is a confession not enough to get him arrested?? that was exactly what they needed?

there is a lot more. he made three seperate points but i can't think how to put it down right now, i don't want to confuse.

very much worth watching imo overall. i think even more now that we've got a good one with bram mosko.

tomorrow you can watch the show here:
http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/uitzending.php?id=318
and in a few hours already here:
http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/index.php/search?serID=1426&sq=pauw+witteman
05-03-2008 (third from the top probably)

[WhiskeyGirl]

They didn't have enough evidence without the confession tapes, and now even with the confession tapes they don't have enough evidence, Bram says that is simply unbelievable

correction that has to be did

Thanks ciskebab...

you know, the Sloots want Natalee on that beach for a reason and if she is ever found there will be some 'new' reason why Joran is not guilty.

I agree with Bram ~ unbelievable.

I wonder if they thought to link the homeless, chollars, drug runners, or fishermen to the disappearance?

It would be a simple thing to do.  However, some fishermen stepped forward to indicate they did not see J2K or Natalee on the beach.

I wonder just what their PVs, witness statements, or testimony before the judge stated?  What did they see that morning?  Who did they see on the beach?  Perhaps their were others that did not see J2K?

Were the fishermen together as a group (2 or 3)?  Or, did one person step forward and implicate others that morning? 

Is it the statement of a group?  Is it two or three statements of individuals, each with a different perspective? 

Who are the fishermen?  Are they still on the island?  Still alive?

My other question, what did J2K argue about before the judge, as told by Dompig?

[Observer]

That`s the only plausible explanation I could think of. The police have not told me specifically what the reasoning is, but, as you`re well aware, the gardener pinpointed them at the racquet club in her vehicle. So I think the shoes may have been lost, maybe cutting across the field from the beach area.

[Tamikosmom]

Didn't someone claim Yoran passed their house covered in mud from waist down in the wee hours of the morning?Shoe stuck in the mud?

Dave Holloway's words support my theory ... my theory that contends that when Joran, Deepak and (?) realized that Natalee was most likely deceased ... left her hidden in the Mangrove bushes ... ran across the street to the Racquet Ball Club where Deepak had parked his vehicle.  A panicked discussion ensued.  Paulus was contacted.  The gardener made his observation.

Janet

+++++++++++

THE POND - THE MUD

Dave Holloway
NANCY GRACE
August 1, 2005[

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/01/ng.01.html

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, what they were doing, I think, was the pond that they drained, they feel like possibly he may have been cutting across the beach, back to the racquet club, and got stuck in the mud and lost his shoes.

That`s the only plausible explanation I could think of. The police have not told me specifically what the reasoning is, but, as you`re well aware, the gardener pinpointed them at the racquet club in her vehicle. So I think the shoes may have been lost, maybe cutting across the field from the beach area.

THE POND - THE MUD (Continued)

Dave Holloway
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
February 23, 2006

COSBY: Dave, do you buy that, he couldn't go back to get his own sneakers because he was going home?

HOLLOWAY: No. You're not going to leave your sneakers on the beach, and you're not in that big of a hurry. So I don't buy that idea at all. If he got rid of his sneakers, it's two things. Either they were too muddy or he lost them somewhere in the mud or whatever, or they had blood on them.


Roy Tromp
CNN
August 2, 2005

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/01/aruba.missing/index.html

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- Aruban authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway are looking for a pair of size-14 tennis shoes that suspect Joran van der Sloot might have lost, a police official said.

"He says he might have lost a pair of sneakers on the beach the night Natalee disappeared," said lead police investigator Roy Tromp. "That's what he claims in one of his many statements."

Tromp said the 17-year-old suspect described the shoes as white and blue and brand new.

"He claimed he lost them in the area of Fisherman's Hut, but we [are] looking at other places, including the pond," he said.

The pond was drained last week after a witness said he had seen Van der Sloot and two other named suspects -- brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe -- nearby. Authorities said Saturday they found nothing in the pond.

[Tamikosmom]

Beth Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
December 6, 2005

TWITTY: You know Greta now that you mention it I was looking through my journal and there was an update from an FBI official and also from our family liaison that in one of Joran Van der Sloot's tennis shoes there was blood. I had written that down. I wish that I had been able to obtain more information as to what happened to that one shoe if that was truly blood in his shoe. You know Greta like I said we are just so limited in any type of information we can get.

VAN SUSTEREN: : Are you suggesting that they did find one of the pair of shoes and that they seized that?

TWITTY: Yes, when I was looking back through my notes there was a date where we received this information either from the FBI or our family liaison that there was blood in Joran's tennis shoe.

[JE]

******* do you know the date when they were looking for it and where they found the bloody/muddy shoe?

I think I remember Beth saying that they found the one shoe in Joran's closet
and it had blood on it.

She most definetly said that and Beth added she never knew if they tested it or not or any results.

******* magnolia thx for your answers. I d still like to know a date if anyone has one. Shoe in closet size 14....mmm
JVDS has size 10.5 You dont suppose it could be someone elses shoe do you?

JE,

I guess we each have our theories as to what was up with the shoes.  I think they could have served a variety of things for Joran.............................

Anna very elaborate wow thx a lot

Incriminating kalpoes could be a reason. But what would be the point. it would be his word against theirs unless they decided to get the shoes for him and not return em and the police would find em at their home.

It is strange that in his PV he asks deepak or satish after they drop him off to go get the shoes??????

Leaving the shoes there to prove he was at the beach could make sense but then why did they tell the HI story first. Surely he could not have expected them to be there when he changed his story days later.

And why bring it up again with Patrick? Im puzzeled here too.

I ve been searching for an article or anything that says the police found one of the shoes in his home but i cant find it if anyone has it plz let me know.

And about letting Kalpoes off the hook so they can go ahead with their claim and be "nice" to him would imply that he knew about being taped while in the car with patrick.

It is strange that what he says on tape is not enough for a conviction because it is all lies. But to Kalpoes lawyers it seems to prove that their clients are not guilty and can pursue their claim????

[dennisintn]

I hate to be so cynical, but at some point it almost seems as if Joran will say he was never on the beach with Natalee... and everyone will say WTF!!!
[/quote

everyone except the aruban judges.  they'll just write it off as another lie, shrug their shoulders and say to mos, "too bad, not enough to convict".
dennisintn