Natalee Case Discussion #741 3/7 - 3/10/08

[Jo-An]

Joran and Lorenzo:

[bluwaters]

On BFN Chat last night, Dave Holloway has direct contact with Hans Mos for expressing any concerns he may have.   He knows better than anyone what Mos would have to say on any subject that concerns him.

Dave knows full well who is lying.  And he knows who isn't.  He is not going to be "misinformed" by any mere poster.

I was in that chat the entire time the poster Birdy was and at no time did this poster disclose anything Mos might have said to poster concerning Daury or Lorenzo as was previously posted here.  Didn't even post what the question presented to Mos was in the first place, either. 

But have no fear, Dave Holloway isn't fooled easily and will verify for himself directly with Mos any concerns he may have and has indicated he is encouraged by the response he has received.

I try to hold out a little hope that Mos is one of the good guys and is eventually going to do the right thing.  At times this is difficult but it is basically the only hope we have for any kind of prosecution at present so I do try.  I'm not even sure what alternative exists at present other than awaiting the next election in hopes of a complete change of government that may or may not happen and even then we are not assured of the desired results.

Does anyone know if Aruba has to incorporate or adapt Dutch law formally for it to be in place as the law of the land in Aruba or is that just a given that it is so?  Does their Parliament have to vote to accept a particular law or set of laws or is it a blanket acceptance?

I ask this as there was talk at one time that Aruban has no corruption laws in place.

.

Thank you for this post Anna. I just want to say that I really appreciate your level headed approach, attitude, and facts. I also appreciate your posts concerning other news that could impact the case, as last weeks updates on the Venezuela/Columbia situation.

I cannot help but think that Venezuela has a huge negative impact on Aruba's tourism and real estate business. Chavez is now threatening to "nationalize" all Columbian businesses located in Venezuela. I would hate to invest in property some 20 miles away from that madman. If there weren't already a boycot of Aruba, I would be very unlikely to plan a family vacation so near a volatile international scene. 

[Observer]

On BFN Chat last night, Dave Holloway has direct contact with Hans Mos for expressing any concerns he may have.   He knows better than anyone what Mos would have to say on any subject that concerns him.

Dave knows full well who is lying.  And he knows who isn't.  He is not going to be "misinformed" by any mere poster.

I was in that chat the entire time the poster Birdy was and at no time did this poster disclose anything Mos might have said to poster concerning Daury or Lorenzo as was previously posted here.  Didn't even post what the question presented to Mos was in the first place, either. 

But have no fear, Dave Holloway isn't fooled easily and will verify for himself directly with Mos any concerns he may have and has indicated he is encouraged by the response he has received.

I try to hold out a little hope that Mos is one of the good guys and is eventually going to do the right thing.  At times this is difficult but it is basically the only hope we have for any kind of prosecution at present so I do try.  I'm not even sure what alternative exists at present other than awaiting the next election in hopes of a complete change of government that may or may not happen and even then we are not assured of the desired results.

Does anyone know if Aruba has to incorporate or adapt Dutch law formally for it to be in place as the law of the land in Aruba or is that just a given that it is so?  Does their Parliament have to vote to accept a particular law or set of laws or is it a blanket acceptance?

I ask this as there was talk at one time that Aruban has no corruption laws in place.

.

Anna your a liar and you are caught red handed on many things and I have it all documented..You AKA Birdy did say last night you were in contact with Mos by phone and email and you said Mos told you Lorenzo has no connection to this case whatsoever. Everyone knows it was you posing as Birdy and everyone knows you aren't in contact with Mos by Telephone or email. The chat was sent to me and you are caught once again as well as the dozens of other times you have lied about Lorenzo.

You also stated you never heard of Lorenzo until well into the Investigation another lie,That you have been in contact with the psychics that said he wasnt involved and your posts all around the net lying about Lorenzo. You have stated well over 100 times he isn't involved and have done that now for over 32 months on every message board. As well as your recent threats contacting his Lawyers and hoping he sues people.

We know such little truth regarding many things but you lying to Dave and everyone else about Lorenzo is not acceptable.

[Linda in MD]

Klaas,
Thank you. 
It's remarkable that the court and the parties are so patient.
Linda in MD

[texasmom]

SandraK has been online posting misinformation and hate since the beginning. Loranzo has really never been attacked, detained, charges, and only briefly spoken to by the police, whom seemed afraid to enter his, a 25 or so year old, yard, much less search the place.

So unless there is a deep, close relationship between her and the VDS, or an involvement by Loranzo, what is her reasoning to get involved to the point that she is malicious and guilty of working diligently to spread misinformation. I would say that Lorenzo has been a friend of Joran's almost Joran's entire life.

I would like to know the answer to that question too! 

[klaasend]

SandraK has been online posting misinformation and hate since the beginning. Loranzo has really never been attacked, detained, charges, and only briefly spoken to by the police, whom seemed afraid to enter his, a 25 or so year old, yard, much less search the place.

So unless there is a deep, close relationship between her and the VDS, or an involvement by Loranzo, what is her reasoning to get involved to the point that she is malicious and guilty of working diligently to spread misinformation. I would say that Lorenzo has been a friend of Joran's almost Joran's entire life.

Because she likes the attention.

[Tater]

Thanks Klaas for posting those screen shots of the fisherman with the trap both over his head and on the boat.  The trap pictured seems to match the approximate dimensions and description obtained by Dr. Hodges.  Nicely done indeed. 

I agree!  And although I won't ask Klaas to do it, I would love to see more screen shots of the video.  I have real issues when I try to watch video, but some of the comments regarding it have definately peaked my interest.  Man on the roof especially, could this be where some of the other videos discussed here came from?

Here are the fish trap pics and a few addtional screen captures from that video:

I've been trying to get this video to load and keep getting an error message.Is it still there Klaas?

[klaasend]

Klaas,
Thank you. 
It's remarkable that the court and the parties are so patient.
Linda in MD

I agree.  I do think part of the delay now is on the courts end.  Sounds like they are real busy and that's why the date was moved to 4/29

[Observer]

SandraK has been online posting misinformation and hate since the beginning. Loranzo has really never been attacked, detained, charges, and only briefly spoken to by the police, whom seemed afraid to enter his, a 25 or so year old, yard, much less search the place.

So unless there is a deep, close relationship between her and the VDS, or an involvement by Loranzo, what is her reasoning to get involved to the point that she is malicious and guilty of working diligently to spread misinformation. I would say that Lorenzo has been a friend of Joran's almost Joran's entire life.

Why is Anna doing the same thing PI? Jossy already told us they have been seen together many times,they are very close and his reporters confirmed they are brothers. If you go back to 2005 several Arubans said he is involved..

Personally I don't care who the guy is..I just find it wrong people change what little facts we know about him and spread mis-information especially to Dave Holloway..It makes me even curious why a few defend him so much and have done so since the very beginning.

[texasmom]

On BFN Chat last night, Dave Holloway has direct contact with Hans Mos for expressing any concerns he may have.   He knows better than anyone what Mos would have to say on any subject that concerns him.

Dave knows full well who is lying.  And he knows who isn't.  He is not going to be "misinformed" by any mere poster.

I was in that chat the entire time the poster Birdy was and at no time did this poster disclose anything Mos might have said to poster concerning Daury or Lorenzo as was previously posted here.  Didn't even post what the question presented to Mos was in the first place, either. 

But have no fear, Dave Holloway isn't fooled easily and will verify for himself directly with Mos any concerns he may have and has indicated he is encouraged by the response he has received.

I try to hold out a little hope that Mos is one of the good guys and is eventually going to do the right thing.  At times this is difficult but it is basically the only hope we have for any kind of prosecution at present so I do try.  I'm not even sure what alternative exists at present other than awaiting the next election in hopes of a complete change of government that may or may not happen and even then we are not assured of the desired results.

Does anyone know if Aruba has to incorporate or adapt Dutch law formally for it to be in place as the law of the land in Aruba or is that just a given that it is so?  Does their Parliament have to vote to accept a particular law or set of laws or is it a blanket acceptance?

I ask this as there was talk at one time that Aruban has no corruption laws in place.

.

Anna your a liar and you are caught red handed on many things and I have it all documented..You AKA Birdy did say last night you were in contact with Mos by phone and email and you said Mos told you Lorenzo has connection to this case whatsoever. Everyone knows it was you posing as Birdy and everyone knows you aren't in contact with Mos by Telephone or email. The chat was sent to me and you are caught once again as well as the dozens of other times you have lied about Lorenzo.

You also stated you never heard of Lorenzo until well into the Investigation another lie,That you have been in contact with the psychics that said he wasnt involved and your posts all around the net lying about Lorenzo. You have stated well over 100 times he isn't involved and have done that now for over 32 months on every message board. As well as your recent threats contacting his Lawyers and hoping he sues people.

We know such little truth regarding many things but you lying to Dave and everyone else about Lorenzo is not acceptable.

[bluwaters]

So, how does this work in the NL when corruption is investigated among those in the justice department? Who runs such an investigation? Do the Dutch set up an independent prosecutor in a case of this type?

What kind of jurisdiction does the NL actually have over Aruba? Can the Dutch legally investigate Aruba's government for corruption? What is the process that would bring such an investigation forward?

the netherlands can't do much. aruba is a seperate country. only they share the same queen.

one thing is possible in article 43 of the statute of the kingdom.
rights, liberties, justice and sound governement is an  responsibility for the kingdom.

Artikel 43

   1. Elk der landen draagt zorg voor de verwezenlijking van de fundamentele menselijke rechten en vrijheden, de rechtszekerheid en de deugdelijkheid van het bestuur.
   2. Het waarborgen van deze rechten, vrijheden, rechtszekerheid en deugdelijkheid van bestuur is aangelegenheid van het Koninkrijk.

http://nl.wikisource.org/wiki/Statuut_voor_het_Koninkrijk_der_Nederlanden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_for_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

council of ministers of the kingdom is the council of ministers of the netherlands including one minister plenipotentiary of aruba and one minister plenipotentiary of the antilles.

aruba can appeal a decision by the council of ministers of the kingdom at the higher court on curaçao.

also i don't think the netherlands sends much money to aruba.

earlier there was a major disagreement about the netherlands selling the mariott hotel (plant complex) and aruba didn't get a share of the money (or not enough)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ministers_of_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_for_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

Article 43
1. Each of the Countries shall promote the realization of fundamental human rights
and freedoms, legal certainty and good governance.
2. The safeguarding of such rights and freedoms, legal certainty and good governance
shall be a Kingdom affair.

Charter for the Kingdom of the Netherlands (PDF)
http://www.minbzk.nl/aspx/download.aspx?file=/contents/pages/48365/thecharterforthekingdomofthenetherlands.pdf


[/quote]

This Article 43 is interesting. I wonder if there are any teeth to back it up?
What is necessary to start an investigation, under Art. 43, of Aruba's police and justice department by the Netherlands?

So, as I understand it, Aruba is only nominally a member of the Kingdom. They receive no money for aid. What does the Netherlands do to keep Aruba under their wing? Should Venezuela attack and try to claim Aruba, I assume the Dutch would defend the island?
Does Aruba do anything beneficial for the Kingdom?
Does the Queen ever visit Aruba?

[bluwaters]

SandraK has been online posting misinformation and hate since the beginning. Loranzo has really never been attacked, detained, charges, and only briefly spoken to by the police, whom seemed afraid to enter his, a 25 or so year old, yard, much less search the place.

So unless there is a deep, close relationship between her and the VDS, or an involvement by Loranzo, what is her reasoning to get involved to the point that she is malicious and guilty of working diligently to spread misinformation. I would say that Lorenzo has been a friend of Joran's almost Joran's entire life.

Why is Anna doing the same thing PI? Jossy already told us they have been seen together many times,they are very close and his reporters confirmed they are brothers. If you go back to 2005 several Arubans said he is involved..

Personally I don't care who the guy is..I just find it wrong people change what little facts we know about him and spread mis-information especially to Dave Holloway..It makes me even curious why a few defend him so much and have done so since the very beginning.

Shows you what I know...
How about it Anna?
*blu slinks off*

[texasmom]

Joran and Lorenzo:

Jo-An, I LOVE IT! Well said.   

[bleachedblack]

No where did Observers posts go?....am I seeing things?

[Pita]

Thanks Klaas for posting those screen shots of the fisherman with the trap both over his head and on the boat.  The trap pictured seems to match the approximate dimensions and description obtained by Dr. Hodges.  Nicely done indeed. 

I agree!  And although I won't ask Klaas to do it, I would love to see more screen shots of the video.  I have real issues when I try to watch video, but some of the comments regarding it have definately peaked my interest.  Man on the roof especially, could this be where some of the other videos discussed here came from?

Here are the fish trap pics and a few addtional screen captures from that video:

Here's an additional picture that I thought was of interest.

[bleachedblack]

SandraK has been online posting misinformation and hate since the beginning. Loranzo has really never been attacked, detained, charges, and only briefly spoken to by the police, whom seemed afraid to enter his, a 25 or so year old, yard, much less search the place.

So unless there is a deep, close relationship between her and the VDS, or an involvement by Loranzo, what is her reasoning to get involved to the point that she is malicious and guilty of working diligently to spread misinformation. I would say that Lorenzo has been a friend of Joran's almost Joran's entire life.

Why is Anna doing the same thing PI? Jossy already told us they have been seen together many times,they are very close and his reporters confirmed they are brothers. If you go back to 2005 several Arubans said he is involved..

Personally I don't care who the guy is..I just find it wrong people change what little facts we know about him and spread mis-information especially to Dave Holloway..It makes me even curious why a few defend him so much and have done so since the very beginning.

Oh here is one.......******* sometimes doesn't your boil just boil?

[Tater]

No where did Observers posts go?....am I seeing things?

Maybe we should just move forward eh? How about a joke to lighten up the place..

A redneck was stopped by a game warden in Central Mississippi recently with two ice chests full of fish. He was leaving a cove well-known for its fishing.

The game warden asked the man, 'Do you have a license to catch those fish?'

'Naw, sir', replied the redneck. 'I ain't got none of them there licenses. You must understand, these here are my pet fish.'

'Pet fish?'

'Yeah. Every night, I take these here fish down to the lake and let 'em swim 'round for awhile. Then, when I whistle, they jump right back into these here ice chests and I take 'em home.'

'That's a bunch of hooey! Fish can't do that.'

The redneck looked at the warden for a moment and then said, 'It's the truth Mr. Government Man. I'll show ya. It really works.'

'O. K.', said the warden. 'I've got to see this!'

The redneck poured the fish into the lake and stood and waited.

After several minutes, the warden says, 'Well?'

'Well, what?', says the redneck.

The warden says, 'When are you going to call them back?'

'Call who back?'

'The FISH'!, replied the warden.

'What fish?', replied the redneck.

...

Moral of the story: We may not be as smart as some city slickers, but we ain't as dumb as some government employees.

[jackb]

GBMW--Thanks for the translation.  The case and not Joran.

I think if we could hear all of what Patrick said, it would turn out much like this.  Translation has long been a problem in getting accurate information about this investigation. 

I think so few people speak Papiamento well that they are able to get away with making claims to just about anything being said. 

The idea seems to be that if they can discredit Patrick, we will forget what Joran said.  Same thing if they can discredit Natalee and Beth, we will forget what Joran did to her.

.

   It is my understanding that he (Patrick) did not do this to a friend.  Joran was not a friend.  It was NOT like he had known him for years. He said nothing about knowing him for years, but that it was not like he knew him for years and it did not bother him to get the goods on Joran. He had know him, I believe he said for either 6 or 8 months.  He did not feel as though he was taping a friend.  I don''t know what all the fuss is about.  I am sure Patrick has heard of Joran and it seems Joran sought Patrick out in the bar to get into the drug trade or whatever.  Joran must not have the same contacts he had in Aruba since he cannot himself keep his big mouth shut.  He is a risk.  Patrick just decided to take advantage of the situation since he has children of his own and Joran disgusts him.  He can make some money besides, why not?   Jack Blue

[Tater]

Pita,
  Can you get one of the guy on the roof at the fishermans hut? The video still won't load for me..

[Dayhiker]

So it looks like he meant he couldn't live with himself without trying to figure out what Joran was hiding / wat he did. When he met Joran he seized the opportunity to try and get information out of him. He has known about the case (for a few years), sees Joran in a casino and made his decision to go for it....at least that is my interpretation of this....

Well said, makes absolutely 100% perfect sense!