Natalee Case Discussion #741 3/7 - 3/10/08

[Destiny]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

Hi Kiwi!  Love your name

I have to agree to disagree with you on this matter...Urine has had a long history of violence/temper issues...his own parents sought help in dealing with these issues...they were even concerned about the safety of the 2 younger sons because of Urine's bad behavior. 

Some people are just born *evil*  My feeling is that Urine is one of them...he is a classic sociopath...no conscience...no empathy...no capacity to feel anything for anyone but himself...JMOO...unfortunately, a long time ago, I dated someone just like him...I'm lucky to be alive today.

[private eye]

SANDRAK IS NOT LORENZO'S MUM
 

Nut is correct - SandraK is not Lorenzo's mom

So I am a little confused. I thought that someone said SandraK was Lorenzo's mom. So this is false? She has been around since day 1 it seems. I met her as a supporter of some Aruba blog in the begining, and at some point she switched sides. Also, Anna, my focus was on SandraK to be honest, but when I thought it was disclosed that she was Lorenzo's Mom, then that changed my feelings towards Lorenzo's involvement, as his alleged Mom's involvement brought credibility to the claim that Lorenzo was invovled.

Apparently for some this is a hot issue, and for me Lorenzo hasn't been a focus. But to think that the VDS and Lorenzo's family don't have strong social ties is a little hard to believe. The Dutch make up a distinct class in Aruba and a minority and they tend to be friends. I don't understand how you can be so certain of the fact that they were not.

But that said, being family friends doesn't implicate either. If Sandra K isn't Lorenzo's Mom, then I don't see Lorenzo being implicated yet. But he does match the description of Darby, he is a huge partyer, he is Dutch etc. and that does make him a person of interest to the case. I think it is great that you are a fair, kind hearted, intelligent poster, but I just don't understand the off base status you seek for him but I am content to respect your wishes unless something implicates him, and unfortunately my source of implication was wrong apparently. And I am certainly not so big headed as to think that it is important that I understand the why's of everyone's position, but I am curious.

But I apologize for my post requesting focus on Lorenzo, just because I didn't like who I thought was his Mom. I remembered a little late that you felt it was wrong to discuss Lorenzo as he has not been "implicated," and that seems like a fair position.

 

[bleachedblack]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

I truly don't think this targeting and carving out of tourist is something invented by the PIMPS. It has been going on for some time now and has been refined over the years. The players change. The game may change some with the times......GHB, video cellphones, .......but the final goal is to take advantage.

[JE]

J: You know it isn't something small you know, we both had something like...we also had done things together before, therefor I knew when I, when I had to to call someone I had to call him.

Then what is it murder? why does he say it isn't something small, assuming he is not aware of any wrong doing and he just happens to be at the beach with a girl that passes out from too much alchohol? Sounds like he knew who to call in case of death by unnatural causes

What ever it was had to be bigger than most think.  Since when do you call just anyone to dump the body of a dead American girl at sea???  I don't know anyone that I could call to do that kind of deed that wasn't already into something much bigger than just hanging out and picking up tourist girls.  No way!! 

The thing is he didn't just call anybody. He knew who to call for occasions like this. Hell maybe the one he called is in his cell phone under "cleaning lady" Plus saying: You know it isn't something small you know IMO means that there is no doubt that what went on was pretty final. Same goes for the so called daury saying "Joran what have you done?" No way you would say this after being called and getting to the location unless there was ample visual proof on the person motionless on the floor and the person that called you Imagine you're "Daury", your good friend calls and says come help me. You go to where he is and see someone lying on the floor unconcious. Your question would most likely be what happened? Now your friend calls you get to the scene someone's on the floor with visual indication of an accident or wrong doing (blood etc) you would probably still ask what happened? But if you got there and there was someone on the floor visible blood etc and traces of a fight/struggle and blood on your friend too then i think you would ask "Joran what have you done""

edited last part from: what happened to what have you done

[klaasend]

Regarding the video YOU by Intwine.  The song was released in 2005.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intwine (7/2/2005 according to this)

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxYEdXpjcw

[BUCKSHOT]

Has anyone ever heard of opposite day?

It is opposite day in Aruba everyday with this investigation.
When honest investigators (not police), journalists, family members are on the wrong track, Aruba lets them search away, often assisting hand in hand. Conversely, when honest investigators (not police), journalists, family members are on the right track, Aruba does everything in its power to block searches, require permits, start fires (literally), spread mis-information, etc...

For all we know, Natalee's body could have been handed over to the Aruban government, or a few corrupt officials (VanderStraaten, Jacobs), taken to a government building, and a disposal methodically planned in conjunction with a well concocted story to distance the truth surrounding that evening. Why would they have to run around the island hiding anything? Those investigating the crime were covering the crime. Their team, as evidenced, even included family spotters, distracting them to the wrong areas.

[Blue Moon]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

I truly don't think this targeting and carving out of tourist is something invented by the PIMPS. It has been going on for some time now and has been refined over the years. The players change. The game may change some with the times......GHB, video cellphones, .......but the final goal is to take advantage.

I agree.  This is a Dutch elitist thing passed down from generation to generation.  The Kalpoes did not fit the bill of a Pimp but they were useful to the Pimps because they had a souped up car and could take them anyplace they wanted to go as long as they were allowed to join in on the fun.  The next group was due to come onboard as Joran and others were graduating and going to the U.S. and other places for college.  Jorans brother, Koen's brother and so on (Satish because he couldn't graduate etc.  Heck this may have be an initiation into the Pimps for the next generation.  One question, why are all the Dutch boys who get into trouble always whisked back to the NL?  For protection?  of course. 

[truthseeker2]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

Hi Kiwi!  Love your name

I have to agree to disagree with you on this matter...Urine has had a long history of violence/temper issues...his own parents sought help in dealing with these issues...they were even concerned about the safety of the 2 younger sons because of Urine's bad behavior. 

Some people are just born *evil*  My feeling is that Urine is one of them...he is a classic sociopath...no conscience...no empathy...no capacity to feel anything for anyone but himself...JMOO...unfortunately, a long time ago, I dated someone just like him...I'm lucky to be alive today.

Good points by both of you.

Does anyone remember the story about when Joran was in jail and how he got into an altercations with another inmate while they were out playing soccer?  Wasn't it reported that Joran kicked the other guy?  Is this what Joran does when he is angry?  Kicks people?  I mean, look at the guy.  He's a wuss.  He's no 'sporter'.  He's a pampered kid.  He would not fight another guy with his fists.  He would kick like a little spoiled child.

Makes you wonder why many of the original stories that he. Deepak, Satish and Paulus conveyed included a scenario where Natalee sustained a head injury.  Oh, and not to mention Joran's shoes seem to be missing.

[Destiny]

SAN...I agree....Natalee...or should I say, *part* of Natalee is on land...jmoo fwiw...

[caesu]

caesu
Thank you for all of the valuable information that you provide here.
So, as I understand it, Aruba is basically a medieval fiefdom, with the Dutch overlords in charge of the business and the future direction of the country.
The overlords are replaced from time to time with other overlords, also from Holland.
The local/native Arubans are basically serfs, scratching out a rather hard existence in an inhospitable climate. The one thing that the climate is good for is tourism, due to the natural beauty of the island.
For whatever reason, the native Arubans are unable to fill high level government positions. I have read that none are "qualified." Why is that?
Could it be lack of educational opportunities? Is no one in power interested in the education of the Arubans? What do Arubans need to obtain in order to qualify for high level governmental positions?
Until Aruba is governed by Arubans, it will never be independent.
Are there no programs to educate Aruban students with the goal of obtaining positions in the Aruban government?
As I see it, until Aruba is governed by Arubans, it will never achieve independence. Arubans could continue to linger for generations in an economic system controlled by outsiders. The cards are stacked against them. They will always be limited to employment in the service sector, with the Dutch controlling all matters of national importance.
It's a "Catch 22" because the Dutch, while perfectly willing to place Dutch nationals in positions of power, are unwilling to "interfere" with the internal politics of the island.
So, Art. 43 says all the right things, but does not seem to have a protocol for implementation.
Who has the authorization to order an investigation based on violations of Art. 43?
And, as caesu is questioning, has anyone ever been prosecuted under Art. 43?
That is a great observation caesu! I imagine that the answer may well be no. I hope that I am wrong about that!

that's a very good summary.
many of the questions you raise i am asking too.

the kingdom cabinet can invoke art. 43 by majority.
even if the aruba and antilles minister vote against it.
there are 16 dutch ministers currently and one for aruba and one for antilles that makes 18.

but aruba or antilles can send one additional minister to the kingdom cabinet. (art. 10)
for example they would send rudy croes justice minister to the hague if the kingdom cabinet meeting is about justice on aruba.

but i don't know if this additional minister also has a vote.

i am still reading that book. it is very difficult stuff, but i am interested in how al this goes.
http://www.managementboek.nl/boek/9789014072128/statuut_voor_het_koninkrijk_der_nederlanden_m_m_timmers

art. 43 is mentioned, but i still don't know whether it is ever used.
it is a very harsh measure i think. which could lead to a split in the kingdom.

and aruba can't stand on his own without the dutch militairy defence backing.
also it can't fill the justice department positions.

in the 70s and 80s aruba wanted status aparte.
the netherlands said OK, here you have status aparte but then within 10 years (1996) you must go independent.
betico croes thought, ok lets do that, but i don't want independence maybe i can try to keep it status aparte.
he thought if i don't agree with this we never get status aparte.
(then 31 december 1985 betico croes had a car crash and went in a coma, next day aruba had status aparte - but betico croes never saw that because he was in a coma).
then in 1995 the article from the kingdom charter was removed about independence - so status aparte remained.

this means the netherlands wanted to get rid of aruba in the first place.

also oduber and rudy croes from time to time talk about independence but never go through with it.
they know aruba can't function without the netherlands.

i think important thing for both sides is to keep the status quo.
keep the 'stability'.
because if aruba goes for independent and things go bad.
then there is chavèz.
the dutch government will then be blamed internationally for letting that happen.

maybe that is a bigger picture. i just don't understand why else this situation keeps in place.

meanwhile on curaçao the opposition is very angry with the government.
curaçao and st. maarten are getting also status aparte in december 2008.
in st. maarten this will be postponed due to the corruption.
on curaçao the opposition want to have a say in the transition to status aparte.
http://antilliaans.caribiana.nl/curacao_bonaire/car20080303_manifestatie-protest

[Kiwi]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

Hi Kiwi!  Love your name

I have to agree to disagree with you on this matter...Urine has had a long history of violence/temper issues...his own parents sought help in dealing with these issues...they were even concerned about the safety of the 2 younger sons because of Urine's bad behavior. 

Some people are just born *evil*  My feeling is that Urine is one of them...he is a classic sociopath...no conscience...no empathy...no capacity to feel anything for anyone but himself...JMOO...unfortunately, a long time ago, I dated someone just like him...I'm lucky to be alive today.

Actually I was hopeful he wouldn't. But your point is well taken. He would also tend to surround himself with the same.

[klaasend]

SANDRAK IS NOT LORENZO'S MUM
 

Nut is correct - SandraK is not Lorenzo's mom

So I am a little confused. I thought that someone said SandraK was Lorenzo's mom. So this is false? She has been around since day 1 it seems. I met her as a supporter of some Aruba blog in the begining, and at some point she switched sides. Also, Anna, my focus was on SandraK to be honest, but when I thought it was disclosed that she was Lorenzo's Mom, then that changed my feelings towards Lorenzo's involvement, as his alleged Mom's involvement brought credibility to the claim that Lorenzo was invovled.

Apparently for some this is a hot issue, and for me Lorenzo hasn't been a focus. But to think that the VDS and Lorenzo's family don't have strong social ties is a little hard to believe. The Dutch make up a distinct class in Aruba and a minority and they tend to be friends. I don't understand how you can be so certain of the fact that they were not.

But that said, being family friends doesn't implicate either. If Sandra K isn't Lorenzo's Mom, then I don't see Lorenzo being implicated yet. But he does match the description of Darby, he is a huge partyer, he is Dutch etc. and that does make him a person of interest to the case. I think it is great that you are a fair, kind hearted, intelligent poster, but I just don't understand the off base status you seek for him but I am content to respect your wishes unless something implicates him, and unfortunately my source of implication was wrong apparently. And I am certainly not so big headed as to think that it is important that I understand the why's of everyone's position, but I am curious.

But I apologize for my post requesting focus on Lorenzo, just because I didn't like who I thought was his Mom. I remembered a little late that you felt it was wrong to discuss Lorenzo as he has not been "implicated," and that seems like a fair position.

 

SandraK has been around since the beginning but my guess is that she had nothing better to do.  I'm sure she has been to Aruba.  She likes to make people believe she is in the "know" when she's really no more in the know than most of us. I believe she thrives on the attention she gets when she pretends to be "someone". She may have become "friends" with the likes of Renfro and others because of the case.  She told me via PM at SM back in 2005 that she didn't really even know Lorenzo.  To the best of my knowledge her last name is NOT van Rijn.

SandraK lives in Michigan and according to her has a 2nd home in Key West.  Remember it was her that called into Dana Pretzer sticking up for Julia Renfro and pretending to be calling from India when Dana's caller ID had a Michigan area code.

[BUCKSHOT]

MOS: And this decision to re-arrest these three suspects was a decision taken by 10 lawyers, by 10 lawyers sitting around a table (INAUDIBLE) whole afternoon, being presented the new material.


Isn't about time we STOP giving Mos the benefit of the doubt? I'm with you TMOM, if one objectively reads what you have posted along with everything else Mos has said and not done, one can only conclude that he is either mentally handicapped, or, that he is complicit in the cover-up. This case is not complicated and the coverup is clear as friggin day.

Mos has not put anyone's feet to the fire in this matter and he sure as hell is not coming down hard on the suspects. It's a clear cut case of going through the motions. He is toying with people's emotions crying wolf about new evidence and dancing with the devil here.

I have no respect for him and want him to prove me/us wrong in this regard.

10 attorneys feel strongly that Joran VanderSloot and company needs to be re-arrested...
Patrick, through videotape, airs Joran's confession on international television...

On a silver platter, the case must be solved now, right.......

Wrong, Hans Mos takes a vacation while a three panel judge finds that Joran is a big liar, high on marijuana, and should not be re-arrested.

Either the attorneys need to be sent back to law school OR
There is something funny going on behind the scenes. Take your pick..........

[San]

J: You know it isn't something small you know, we both had something like...we also had done things together before, therefor I knew when I, when I had to to call someone I had to call him.

Then what is it murder? why does he say it isn't something small, assuming he is not aware of any wrong doing and he just happens to be at the beach with a girl that passes out from too much alchohol? Sounds like he knew who to call in case of death by unnatural causes

BINGO!   I am of the persuasion that the Pimps...in whatever combination of the group...*have* killed before....they are raw THUGS....products of their environment....and environment of salacious greed and violence....the old southern saying comes to mind..."it was good enough for my Pappy...it's good enough for me"

I agree.

[JE]

Interesting link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NtzCPPN3bU&feature=PlayList&p=BB13C5E28C4D9E8D&index=2

not so much the conspiracy thing but what he says in the beginning
This clip was posted febuary 7th 2008 and he mentions dutch and american aliance to invade Venezuela and overthrow Chavez. In the light of the developements between venezuela columbia The airforce 2 plane etc. it just stood out

[Destiny]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

Hi Kiwi!  Love your name

I have to agree to disagree with you on this matter...Urine has had a long history of violence/temper issues...his own parents sought help in dealing with these issues...they were even concerned about the safety of the 2 younger sons because of Urine's bad behavior. 

Some people are just born *evil*  My feeling is that Urine is one of them...he is a classic sociopath...no conscience...no empathy...no capacity to feel anything for anyone but himself...JMOO...unfortunately, a long time ago, I dated someone just like him...I'm lucky to be alive today.

Actually I was hopeful he wouldn't. But your point is well taken. He would also tend to surround himself with the same.

Kiwi...you are spot on...birds of a feather flock together....

[San]

Unfortunately, researching unexplained missing persons and tourists is not a small list. Just look at all the ones presented in the last 3 years. 2 years or less from March 05 would do it. Beyond that Joran is hopefully to young to be privy to someones body disposal or killing.

Hi Kiwi!  Love your name

I have to agree to disagree with you on this matter...Urine has had a long history of violence/temper issues...his own parents sought help in dealing with these issues...they were even concerned about the safety of the 2 younger sons because of Urine's bad behavior. 

Some people are just born *evil*  My feeling is that Urine is one of them...he is a classic sociopath...no conscience...no empathy...no capacity to feel anything for anyone but himself...JMOO...unfortunately, a long time ago, I dated someone just like him...I'm lucky to be alive today.

Good points by both of you.

Does anyone remember the story about when Joran was in jail and how he got into an altercations with another inmate while they were out playing soccer?  Wasn't it reported that Joran kicked the other guy?  Is this what Joran does when he is angry?  Kicks people?  I mean, look at the guy.  He's a wuss.  He's no 'sporter'.  He's a pampered kid.  He would not fight another guy with his fists.  He would kick like a little spoiled child.

Makes you wonder why many of the original stories that he. Deepak, Satish and Paulus conveyed included a scenario where Natalee sustained a head injury.  Oh, and not to mention Joran's shoes seem to be missing.

One of the reports was that he got into a fight with a smaller guy and the smaller guy held his own with Joran.  I agree that Joran cannot fight unless he has a weapon.  He picks on the weak because it makes him feel superior.

Perfect examples:  The Kalpoes.

[truthseeker2]

Interesting link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8NtzCPPN3bU&feature=PlayList&p=BB13C5E28C4D9E8D&index=2

not so much the conspiracy thing but what he says in the beginning
This clip was posted febuary 7th 2008 and he mentions dutch and american aliance to invade Venezuela and overthrow Chavez. In the light of the developements between venezuela columbia The airforce 2 plane etc. it just stood out

Wow.  I have to agree with you about why that stands out.  It will be very intersting to watch the events unfold over the next few weeks.

[Observer]

PI:

There is a rumor going around the Dutch Forums saying that Lorenzo's GF withdrew his alibi from the night Natalee went missing. Not sure where it first started or if it is true,but Julia would not comment on Hannie's question about it at RU. Also another rumor stating that SandraK is Lorenzo's Mom which is very hard to believe as Klaas stated.

[Kiwi]

All options should remain open until further information comes our way. A beach to ocean. A beach to house. Even a party to clean-up call. All are possible. Given that we are on the outside working our way in, you all contribute to moving in really one direction the return of Natalee home.