Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 - 3/14/08

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Guys! My internet's back and I just couldn't resist saying hello! I'll be lurking a while, because I'm WAY behind, but I hope it's ok if I mention this: Please check the Lounge (link in my signature line) for your Easter avatar, and leave a post if you aren't in the list. I'll get to you asap! 

[Destiny]

Hi Guys! My internet's back and I just couldn't resist saying hello! I'll be lurking a while, because I'm WAY behind, but I hope it's ok if I mention this: Please check the Lounge (link in my signature line) for your Easter avatar, and leave a post if you aren't in the list. I'll get to you asap! 

CBB...Missed Ya!!!!  Love my Easter AVI...YOU ROCK!!! 

[SunnyinTX]

Hi Guys! My internet's back and I just couldn't resist saying hello! I'll be lurking a while, because I'm WAY behind, but I hope it's ok if I mention this: Please check the Lounge (link in my signature line) for your Easter avatar, and leave a post if you aren't in the list. I'll get to you asap! 

CBB So glad you are back...you were missed!!!

[hotping]

Welcome Back CBB You Were Missed Very Much! I Have Been Over and Found My Easter Avitar and Its Perfect but I will wait until after St Patty's Day to change. Thank You!     

[Tamikosmom]

Hi Guys! My internet's back and I just couldn't resist saying hello! I'll be lurking a while, because I'm WAY behind, but I hope it's ok if I mention this: Please check the Lounge (link in my signature line) for your Easter avatar, and leave a post if you aren't in the list. I'll get to you asap! 

Hi cbb.  Welcome back ... you were missed.

Hey ... I may be without internet without a moment's notice.

 

Yesterday hubby informed our daughter that he was tempted to sabotage my computer.  He did laugh after making the comment but ... this wannabe detective speculates that she had better adhere to the underlying message and ... spend more time outside the computer room.

cbb ... Ducky and I would appreciate if ... at your convenience ... the red Valentine flower could be replaced with a small Easter Lily.

Thank you.

Janet

[katrien]

Look who's that:

http://www.rtl.nl/shows/jensen/home/index.xml

[mojo]

Look who's that:

http://www.rtl.nl/shows/jensen/home/index.xml

katrien, i am guessing you're pointing out that bram moskowicz is on jensen....

[Flipper/Donnie29]

Look who's that:

http://www.rtl.nl/shows/jensen/home/index.xml

Hi Katrien.. when is Bram coming on then?? I guess thursday.. tonight 2 farmers:P wednesday.. dr alban and then thursday Bram??

[katrien]

Look who's that:

http://www.rtl.nl/shows/jensen/home/index.xml

Hi Katrien.. when is Bram coming on then?? I guess thursday.. tonight 2 farmers:P wednesday.. dr alban and then thursday Bram??

It seems to be this week, most likely not tonight. The show is also broadcasted on Fridaynight.

 

[Jerry from Ohio]

 To IDSTLOU:
   Dear sweet Lady you are such a wonderful woman as well as a teacher of the young and as a leader in the Scouting program you have shown these young men that a community that is served by upstanding young men will continue to thrive and prosper , I am not just speaking of financial wealth but wealth in regards in our youth that will grow and be able to stand up responsibly for good verses evil .
  A very heartfelt thank you to you IDSTLOU and may I say again that I am proud to say that you are my friend as well as a fellow SM . (((( idstlou)))
  Jerry from Ohio

Good Morning Monkeys!!!

I am sending out my thank you notes to those who participated with us on Sunday. I think most of you know I invited some of my scouts out. I wanted you to know why. Here is the thank you note I am sending the boys and why it meant so much to me that they participated:



What brave young men you are to come out as you did on Sunday and take a stand and let your voices be heard, I am so proud of you all. You took a stand for a girl who you know of, but never actually knew, that is even more incredible to me. There are people all across America that have also taken a stand for Natalee, and most of us never knew her personally either. You are now part of a very special group of people who have given their voices to a very important cause; Justice for Natalee.

At the beginning of every Cub Scout meeting, we stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance together. We state:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
And to the Republic for which it stands:
One Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

I just want to take a minute and tell you why I am so grateful for what you did Sunday, and why I feel it is so important. I think you understand most of the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, but there are three very important words at the end that we are pledging, that we are making a commitment to, and they are; Indivisible, Liberty, and Justice. So I looked those words up in the dictionary and here is what I found:

Indivisible: incapable of being divided.

Liberty: the power of choice. The right to live one’s life without threats, fear, or some kind of retaliation.

Justice: the right to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper laws and principle.

Our Pledge of Allegiance ends with; for All. These principles we pledge to belong to EVERY AMERICAN regardless of race, religion, color, creed or any other criteria. So my understand is that essentially, we are saying that as Americans, we stand together and can not be divided, and that we are committed to Liberty, to live our lives without fear or threats, but if our Liberty is taken away, then we also are committed to Justice. That those who took away our Liberties must be held responsible according to the Law. If you break the law, then you must be held responsible for your actions.

Unfortunately, Aruba has not given Natalee Justice. Natalee's Liberties were taken away from her when she visited Aruba, and now as Americans, we are standing up to say, Natalee deserves Justice. The bad guys need to go to court and if found guilty, then they should be put in jail. This is what you stood up and said on Sunday when you were passing out the fliers. You were true to your Pledge of Allegiance, and for this, I am so very proud of you. You may be young men, but your voices are strong and you made a difference on Sunday and stood up for our beliefs, as Americans, and as Cub Scouts who Pledge Allegiance to our Flag.

Thank you so much my brave heroes!!!

[Tamikosmom]

Could it be that the November, 2007 detentions were a ruse ... an opportunity for getting stories straight in regards to the impending fifth video recording?

The planned outcome would distance:

1.  Paulus.
2.  the Kalpoes ... the Kalpoes who have the ability to implicate Paulus.
3.  those who assisted Paulus in moving Natalee from the beach ... those who have the ability to implicate Paulus.
4.  the sons of the elite (pimps).
5.  the gardener's observation and Junior's observation.
6.  those in the Aruban/Dutch administrations who were involved in or aware of the coverup.
7.  the owners of the Exelcior and Carlos 'N Charles from liability ... the establishments where an underage Joran drank and gambled on the evening of May 29, 2005 and the morning of May 30, 2005.

The planned outcome would appease Natalee's family ... provide a measure of closure ... silence a mother who demanded answers ...
 
The planned outcome would assure that a known liar would not be held legally accountable ... the video recording would be ruled inadmissible as evidence.

Janet
 
++++++++++

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/02/arubans_wary_of_fifth_car_trip.php

Arubans wary of fifth car trip in Holloway case
Monday 25 February 2008
 
Dutch tv crime reporter Peter R de Vries set up a fifth car trip to try and get Joran van der Sloot to confess to murdering US teenager Natalee Holloway after the Aruban public prosecution department said the original four recordings did not contain enough evidence, the Volkskrant reported on Saturday.
 
Aruban officials told De Vries and his team at a secret hotel meeting that the tapes did not contain enough new evidence, the paper says in a reconstruction of events surrounding the tv programme which claimed to solve the mystery of her disappearance.
 
Aruban public prosecutor Hans Mos told the paper he did not want to have anything to do with the extra car trip because he was afraid it could be construed as entrapment and blow the case.
 
The final car trip with Van der Sloot and his 'friend' Patrick van der Eem took place on January 29 in a borrowed car which had been hastily kitted out with recording equipment, the paper said. The original had already been sold.
 
During that trip, Van der Sloot said he was not sure if Natalee had been dead when a friend dumped her body at sea.
 
After the press release was issued claiming the case had been solved but without giving any further details, De Vries told the paper he hoped that Van der Sloot would again phone his 'friend'.
 
But website VKMag picked up a page on De Vries' website which identified Van der Sloot. The page had been prepared for release after the programme was aired on Sunday but had gone live by mistake.

[Tamikosmom]

Klaas ... would you please fix the link in my post.

Thank you.

Janet

[klaasend]

Klaas ... would you please fix the link in my post.

Thank you.

Janet

Looks like it's fine to me?

[ldstlou]

To IDSTLOU:
   Dear sweet Lady you are such a wonderful woman as well as a teacher of the young and as a leader in the Scouting program you have shown these young men that a community that is served by upstanding young men will continue to thrive and prosper , I am not just speaking of financial wealth but wealth in regards in our youth that will grow and be able to stand up responsibly for good verses evil .
  A very heartfelt thank you to you IDSTLOU and may I say again that I am proud to say that you are my friend as well as a fellow SM . (((( idstlou)))
  Jerry from Ohio

Good Morning Monkeys!!!

I am sending out my thank you notes to those who participated with us on Sunday. I think most of you know I invited some of my scouts out. I wanted you to know why. Here is the thank you note I am sending the boys and why it meant so much to me that they participated:



What brave young men you are to come out as you did on Sunday and take a stand and let your voices be heard, I am so proud of you all. You took a stand for a girl who you know of, but never actually knew, that is even more incredible to me. There are people all across America that have also taken a stand for Natalee, and most of us never knew her personally either. You are now part of a very special group of people who have given their voices to a very important cause; Justice for Natalee.

At the beginning of every Cub Scout meeting, we stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance together. We state:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
And to the Republic for which it stands:
One Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

I just want to take a minute and tell you why I am so grateful for what you did Sunday, and why I feel it is so important. I think you understand most of the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, but there are three very important words at the end that we are pledging, that we are making a commitment to, and they are; Indivisible, Liberty, and Justice. So I looked those words up in the dictionary and here is what I found:

Indivisible: incapable of being divided.

Liberty: the power of choice. The right to live one’s life without threats, fear, or some kind of retaliation.

Justice: the right to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper laws and principle.

Our Pledge of Allegiance ends with; for All. These principles we pledge to belong to EVERY AMERICAN regardless of race, religion, color, creed or any other criteria. So my understand is that essentially, we are saying that as Americans, we stand together and can not be divided, and that we are committed to Liberty, to live our lives without fear or threats, but if our Liberty is taken away, then we also are committed to Justice. That those who took away our Liberties must be held responsible according to the Law. If you break the law, then you must be held responsible for your actions.

Unfortunately, Aruba has not given Natalee Justice. Natalee's Liberties were taken away from her when she visited Aruba, and now as Americans, we are standing up to say, Natalee deserves Justice. The bad guys need to go to court and if found guilty, then they should be put in jail. This is what you stood up and said on Sunday when you were passing out the fliers. You were true to your Pledge of Allegiance, and for this, I am so very proud of you. You may be young men, but your voices are strong and you made a difference on Sunday and stood up for our beliefs, as Americans, and as Cub Scouts who Pledge Allegiance to our Flag.

Thank you so much my brave heroes!!!

Oh Jerry, you made me cry, thank you so much!!!

[klaasend]

Posted by Marco at RU:

03-05-08 P&W Bram Moszkowics on the show, De Vries or Joran?

De Vries or Joran, who's responsible?

Q: Good now were' going to talk about Beth Twitty, Bram Moszkowics, you have contact with her, she's in Holland now to investigate with you if Joran vd Sloot can be juridisch , is it only about Joran or also other family members"

B: At the moment we're only concentrating on Mr. Joran vd Sloot.

Q: How did you get in contact with Mrs. Twitty?

B: Today or yesterday?

Q: No no, back then....Did you contact her?

B: No, that's a misconception, I never call people and ask them if they want to be my client.
I was called by a middleman, she then called me and asked me if I want to represent her, in the beginning she has asked around how she can find someone.

Q: And in the end, somehow she came in contact with you?

B: Yes, that's how it goes.

Q: Does she have an American lawyer?

B: Yes, there was talk about that.......but that's been blown away.

Q: Which judicial system is going to deal with Joran?

B: Either in Holland or Aruba. But that's the same.

Q: Why not in America? Is that not the country of the "claim culture"?

B: That I don't know for sure, I have still not talked to her American Lawyer, but I think that it has to do with the fact where all these awful things happened, and the law enforcement.

Q: We asked Mrs.Twitty what her motivation is, at you office, and this is what she said:

(Beth talking on tape):
We have to hope that the judicial system will kick in and that he will be prosecuted and put behind bars, but you know,  but if that does not happen, you know, we're looking at a civil action, I mean it's too late for Natalee and for us, but it's not too late for other young females that might be in his path.

Q: Lets talk about the different paths you might take. How big of a change, what's the percentage, that you can win, do you have if you begin the procedure?

B: If I confine myself with the civil procedure, I think a 85 - 90% chance that I will do it, but you have to be careful, you understand that also, look this lady can not take much more, so at the moment that you start investigating, as a lawyer you have to be sure, that there is a realistic change is,more than that, that it will succeed, because what's worse for her, if I start a civil case, and Mr. vd Sloot will win, we don't want that.

Q: So a civil case, we're talking about money........

B: No, it's not about money, this woman....................has.....................a civil case, it's that.......I will represent my client and .........we will take legal civil action, not criminal but a civil action.......against vd Sloot.
That means that I am investigating, with other people around me, also on Aruba, if it makes sense that we sue the man for an unlawful act.
Unlawful act, that means  that you did something that in society you should not have been done.
There are two anchors then, I will throw those out, one what we call "shock damage", it's a form of damage, if you experienced something terrible word speaks for itself, and if you have psychological damage, my client has that also, you can demand "shock damage".
That's one way, the other possibility I am looking at, which is also interesting,  is also based on an unlawful act,  if you take someone civil lawful, keep in mind that the man made a confession, because for me there's no question in my mind, that he made the confession a whole lot of different times in that car, and because he kept silent all this time, he committed an unlawful act against my client, because, as an example, my client has been pointed out as a material suspect, and because of this she's suffering.

Q: Because now she's a suspect herself in the disappearance of her daughter?

B: Yes! Just to say something.

Q: But how can Joran vd Sloot help this?

B: Can help what?

Q: How can Joran vd Sloot help, is it his fault that Mrs Twitty has been a suspect herself, for a little while at least?

B: Well that I can tell you, it's because he consistently has denied, until the moment he did confess, has it been possible that the eyes have been pointed towards my client......

Q: But it's his right, loose from the fact IF he did it, it is your right as a suspect, to say you are innocent.

B: That's why I am talking about a civil action with you, than he does not have the right to deny the charges.

Q: That's the difference, that's what you're talking about?

B: Well, in the civil........well lets say in the criminal case the man is a suspect he can keep still, in the civil case, because he's not talking, he has caused her (Mrs Twitty) damage. So here the obligation to keep quiet does not apply here.

Q: And does that only work if can start from the point......if the judge....that  the confessions that he made in the car to Patrick  v d Eem the right confessions are

B: Well look the whole premises, and there will stand or fall the whole case with, how do you appreciate the confession, what Joran said in the car, I, myself have no doubt about that, you can argue about that, I have colleagues they do not agree with me at all, they don't see a confession what so ever, I find that ridiculous,

That was Gerard Sprong, or Mrs Riet (?)

B: I'm not sure, but you can not persevere with dry eyes that vd Sloot 5 times in the car, yes shark, no shark,  he never took one word back, not the day after he had said it, that he never confessed, that's just nonsense.
Whatever this guy has said in the car, that's going to make an impression on the judge.

Q: Shock effect, I want to.......shock effect, damage, what's the shock?

B: That she, my client physiologically has been GEDEKOMPSEERD (I can't translate that word)     (HELP PLEASE)
and she now seeing a psychologist.......

Q: And then how can you say: That's because of you, Joran?

B: Well do you have someone else in mind? You have to connect the dots, and that's what my team and I are investigating right now, to begin with, how did she get "the shock"that can be diagnosed by a psychiatrist, that she's suffering,, I think that's possible, there's a connection, you don't have to be an Einstein to make the connection between the misery this woman has now, and the fact that her daughter has disappeared.

Q: That has to do with the fact, well the confession from Joran in Patric's car, and that's one of the things that will be seen as a confession......

B: That's very important .....

Q: because there is the suggestion that one of the things......this boy is a pathological liar, he just makes stuff up, 

B: I know that, I have heard that, but that's nonsense, because the man has never been investigated by a judge, leave alone a psychiatrist, that people are now screaming that he now, let's say, a habitual liar is, you can't take that serious.

Q: But then, how is it possible, you yourself say: it's a confession, but you can't take it serious, how is it possible then that this boy is still walking around free?

B: It's a very good question, and why that is, is because ....what was said after the De Vries's show?
We do not have enough to rearrest him, I find that remarkable, because if, in the past you had enough to lock him up, what they did on Aruba, WITHOUT  the confession, then I ask myself: What more do you want if they have what they had then, they said them self it's enough to lock him up, then you get a fantastic TV show, where they show the man made 5 confessions, that he said he did it, I think then if you count 1 + 1, that also on Aruba that's 2,

Q: But I think the judge-COMMESARIS, who back then questioned Joran vd Sloot, he came to the conclusion that Joran a big fat liar is, so you can't classify the confession in a car with a lot of camera's as a confession.

B: The  judge-COMMESARIS, should not hide behind that, because if that's the fact because that's not his job, he has to determine if there's enough evidence to pick the man up again, and the same judge found there was enough to pick him up without the confession, that's important what I say now, now he's saying that with the confession there's NOT enough evidence to pick him up again.
Now it's your turn again.......... ha ha

Q: My turn, but you can also say that the "shock damage" that Mrs. Twitty has now, is not because of Joran vd Sloot but De Vries.

B: That's a different question....

Q: It might be a different question, but it's an important one.

B: Look, at the moment my client knows what Peter de Vries got from this man, is it above being a human for he to not look at it, I think, you can't set that  after what she heard from Peter de Vries, you can't say: I don't have to see this.
She wants to know this, I think as a mother, you want to know this. What happened, coming from the mouth of Joran .......

Q: So there's no responsebility for Peter R de Vries?
The question is: who caused the shock damage?
And then you have to take a step back, and say it's the one who's responsible for the show.

B: No, of course not, the shock damage has been caused because of the fact that, and I believe that, that you have to take the confession very serious, and the shock damage has happened because of what the man said he did, he said it himself.
So you can't say: The messenger has caused the shock damage, No it's Mr vd Sloot of course. Because of his actions and what he left behind.

Q: All the confession, let's call them what you call them, all the facts has been checked and they were not happy on Aruba, the boy has not been found, the boat has not been found.

B: That's true what you are saying now, but what you see often in a lawsuit is that a judge will believe a witness even though it's been proven that he lied.
So to judge to believe the witness is not the point, if you can believe him, or catch him in a lie, the judge can think: I can trust him, it makes sense what he says, or a suspect who lies, you can disconnect the two.

Q: Believability is in question, how can you bring the believability in front of a judge?

B: First of all don't forget the criminal case is still ongoing on Aruba, also my client has given me the orders, that as soon as Aruba makes the decision to not prosecute, we're going to MAKEN EEN KLACHT BY HET HOF. (Twitty, even though if the case gets dropped she's going to complain to the court on Aruba)

Lets look again at Mrs. Twitty, what she thought was the most difficult for her to watch during the show.

(Beth on tape)
When he imitated her when she's having a seizure, or is suffering or whatever, that's when......I mean............that's the part that's the most difficult for me to watch, that's this the day, or today .......I just said: I want to come through the Tv and I just want to kill him right there, I mean now I know the answer to what happened to Natalee, and I don't have to constanlty have to spearhead and manage and gosh you know I mean it's just like it's finaly put to rest I guess,

Q: Are you being motivated because of this reason or is it a client that.....?

B: No, I have to tell you that I am more motivated in this case because I can put myself in this woman shoes.

If the case is dropped I can myself bring a complain (by the courts).

Q: When are you yourself sure of the case, When are you going to start?

B: I told my client I will tell her within two weeks.

[Tater]

Does anyone know anything about this complaining to the court? I've never heard of such a thing.Just curious as to what that means..

[klaasend]

Anna - I have moved your post to it's own thread.  It has not been deleted nor has it been modified, simply moved so we don't disrupt this new NH discussion thread again.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2694.0

[Tater]

Does anyone know anything about this complaining to the court? I've never heard of such a thing.Just curious as to what that means..

yucatexan, snoopy, Bearlyhere, Peaches, truthseeker2, BUCKSHOT, private eye, Ree, spec_ed, trimmonthelake, WhiskeyGirl..Anyone?

[Peaches]

Klaas, speaking of moving some posts.....  Could you please move the posts on page 81 of the Prayer Thread to the Peaches Rally Thread?  From pdh3 at the top down to Lala's will do nicely.  Shoulda been there to start with.  TY

[Peaches]

Does anyone know anything about this complaining to the court? I've never heard of such a thing.Just curious as to what that means..

Who's complaining to the court?  I just got home so I may be a little behind.