Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 - 3/14/08

[Observer]

One of the few times we have heard Chief Dolf Richardson say jack he said that he believed they never were at the beach but very well could have been at the Van der Sloot house. Of course that was almost two years ago and Dolf still hasn't done jack.

De Vries said his ALE sources told him the same thing in 2006,he said then that they don't think they ever went to the Beach but went to the VDS house and something happened by the garden. If you look at all the early NE articles they say there ALE source thinks she was drugged and taken back to the house. Here we are in 2008,they have 24 detectives on the case,Mos is blaming Natalee's Family and the American Media but yet we were closer to solving this on June 10th 2005 

[KarmaRoundUp]

Interesting to look at the islands yearbooks..Such a small class but yet so many with the same last name..Kock,Arendsz,Arends,Maduro..Croes..and yes Wever 

That is interesting.Lot of them look unhappy,mainly the girls.Wonder if we can find one with Lorenzo in it?

I stumbled onto a couple of years at that school but well before Lorenzo's time  No one real important in the yearbooks except Robert Wever,you may see a couple of ministers..But no one tied into this case that I know of.

http://www.colegiopariba.freeservers.com/index.html

Thank you *******.
While it's slow around here I'm going to see if I can find out more info on Lorenzo.Also,does anyone know what Freddy's parents names are?What they do on aruba?

[Blue Moon]

It's interesting to me how the water offshore Aruba is rather allegorical of the Island's condition. 

Near the beach the ocean is shallow, full of life, vibrant - so full of color and character, quiescent, and safe.  It's absolutely beautiful, promising, and inviting.  The water is refreshing, clean, and good.

Offshore, the water becomes suddenly deep, dark and cold.  You get out of the lee of the island and the sea becomes volatile and unforgiving.  It'll be calm one minute, and a torrent the next.  It is a deceptive environment which looks inviting but only seeks to devour.  A large portion of the area literally means "don't go there". If you are unfamiliar with the nature of the environment, you won't realize the 4kt current silently whisking you farther into the open ocean. The hidden dangers are evident in the wrecks which have fallen as victims of the turmoil.

If only these conditions were unique to Aruba. 

To me you are describing Aruba and the merry-go-round this has been for Beth and Dave. 

[Dayhiker]

One of the few times we have heard Chief Dolf Richardson say jack he said that he believed they never were at the beach but very well could have been at the Van der Sloot house. Of course that was almost two years ago and Dolf still hasn't done jack.

De Vries said his ALE sources told him the same thing in 2006,he said then that they don't think they ever went to the Beach but went to the VDS house and something happened by the garden. If you look at all the early NE articles they say there ALE source thinks she was drugged and taken back to the house. Here we are in 2008,they have 24 detectives on the case,Mos is blaming Natalee's Family and the American Media but yet we were closer to solving this on June 10th 2005 

I get the impression that Joran's confession was a real thorn in Hans' side. He had successfully closed the case without having to go to trial. Life was good for Hans. Then Joran congesses and makes him have to look like he's busy again.

Poor Hans.

[Observer]

Thank you *******.
While it's slow around here I'm going to see if I can find out more info on Lorenzo.Also,does anyone know what Freddy's parents names are?What they do on aruba?

YW..But I don't think you will find Freddy's,Kalpoes,GVC,SGC parents in any yearbook in Aruba as they are from other countries..I have done a lot of research on Lorenzo and have spoken to a classmate so I know he went to H.S. in Aruba for sure..No clue if it's uploaded online though..I would imagine LVR graduated about 1998 

[Blue Moon]

I must with Dave that the Sloot residence played an important role.  What's the consensus here...

To what extent was the VDS residence used in NH's dissapearance?

Hi Ocean,good to see you all made it back home safe.

Considering that the van der sloots decided it was a GOOD thing to give their wayward,sicko,out of control son a line of credit at the casinos and carlos&Charlies bar,and his own little private party pad at the age of 15.....I'd say joran used his little apartment for sex parties,and that he took Natalee there(like he took all of his girls there,with his parents approval),Natalee was raped and over drugged and died there.Then they possibly moved her around the dirty little island a couple of times then out to sea.

Karma ... the following segment was taken from the New York lawsuit brought again Paulus and Joran van der Sloot by Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway. 

Janet

++++++++++++

HELEN LEJUEZ - ARUBAN FAMILY ATTORNEY

Affidavid of C. Helen Lejuez
<snipped>

5. ... Miss Doe told me that she was coming forward at that time because she had had an experience that might be similar to Natalee's experience.

6. Miss Doe informed me that, one evening during early in 2005, she met Joran van der Sloot at Carlos'n Charlie's nightclub in Aruba.

7. Miss Doe told me that, over the course of the night, Joran van der Sloot gave her several alcoholic beverages. Miss Doe further stated that she believes that Joran van der Sloot placed some kind of narcotic substance in one of her drinks. The reason she believes she was drugged is that her level of intoxication was greatly disportionate to the amount of alcohol that she consumed.

8. Later that night, according to Miss Doe, Joran Van der Sloot brought Miss Doe back to his apartment, adjacent to his parent's house.

9. Miss Doe then told me that she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot as she faded in and out of conciousness, At no time did Miss Doe consent to any sexual contact with Joran van der Sloot.

10. Miss Doe advised me that, shortly after she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot, she learned that two other young women, ages 16 and 17, suffered attacks by Joran van der Sloot under similar circumstances.
11. Miss Doe told me that, in the aftermath of Joran van der Sloot's attack on Miss Doe, she was threatened and intimidated by Joran van der Sloot, his friends and others. She had been terrified to come forward and tell her story in Aruba.


Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  It definitely smells that way.  You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here.  We are talking about drugs.  We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people.  There are four guys now in custody, four best friends.  What does that tell you?
 
MANSUR:  Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends.  They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around.

And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house.  So, there is a bond between them.  There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

Thank you Janet.
The pimps of aruba live on it seems,I wonder if they were taught this game by their Daddy's.

I said this the other night (i am like Klaas "Nobody ever listens to me") but I believe this could have been an initiation into the pimps for the younger boys as this group would be moving on (except Satish who stil hasn't graduated from high school). 

[Dayhiker]

It's interesting to me how the water offshore Aruba is rather allegorical of the Island's condition. 

Near the beach the ocean is shallow, full of life, vibrant - so full of color and character, quiescent, and safe.  It's absolutely beautiful, promising, and inviting.  The water is refreshing, clean, and good.

Offshore, the water becomes suddenly deep, dark and cold.  You get out of the lee of the island and the sea becomes volatile and unforgiving.  It'll be calm one minute, and a torrent the next.  It is a deceptive environment which looks inviting but only seeks to devour.  A large portion of the area literally means "don't go there". If you are unfamiliar with the nature of the environment, you won't realize the 4kt current silently whisking you farther into the open ocean. The hidden dangers are evident in the wrecks which have fallen as victims of the turmoil.

If only these conditions were unique to Aruba. 

To me you are describing Aruba and the merry-go-round this has been for Beth and Dave. 

 

[Observer]

I get the impression that Joran's confession was a real thorn in Hans' side. He had successfully closed the case without having to go to trial. Life was good for Hans. Then Joran congesses and makes him have to look like he's busy again.

Poor Hans.

You got that right! Not only Hans but Rudy Croes,Wit and everyone else! They went on record as happy as could be..Don't feel bad Americans..Even though the case is closed and they are released as suspects..It can still be reopened if in the next 12 years if Major new evidence is found like Natalee's body,forensic evidence that we destroyed or if the ocean suddenly goes dry..The only ones they are Mad at is Joran for screwing up and anyone that tries to get the truth out of him.

Heck even Judge Wit came out of his closet after the case closed to defend himself,he said about the same thing that there is major suspicions,and some evidence,all you need is something major like forensic evidence or her body..Good luck with that! However he made the situation worse when he tried to point fingers at the OM for never asking to search more than Jorans little Apt and accused Dompig of Obstruction of Justice when defending his unbelievable rulings.

[texasmom]

The Persistence is completing its last leg of the journey home.  It should arrive some time on Wed.  Incredibly, the Persistence never saw anything over 4ft seas the entire way from Aruba to Mexico with 2kt currents and the wind at its stern - it made awesome time.  It had to spend a few days in Mexico where it refueled until the Gulf calmed down, but it's good to go now.  Thanks for all the prayers. 

Thats great news OE  I hope someone gets the chance to check out those targets that you all worked so hard to locate! It would be terrible to always wonder if you found her but just never got the chance to make that dive to locate her and bring her home....Where she belongs...

Perhaps I can clarify things a bit.  The press always seems to word things so they sound worse than they are. 

The search was not flat out "called-off".  The side scan sonar search is complete.  We covered all of the planned area (and other non-planned areas) with 200% coverage.  This means every inch of seabed was covered twice on average over about 50 sq miles. Many sonar targets were identified and explored with the first round of ROV dives between Dec 29th to about the 7th of January.  What has not been completed is the ROV dives on sonar targets found after about the 2nd week of January through the end of the sonar search.  These targets (as well as the first dive series picks) were picked under the assumption that any type of containment of human remains should be explored, rather than just fish traps.  This method makes no guesses as to what we "know" or "don't know" about the case, rather it leaves no stone unturned. Once adequate funding is procured a dedicated ROV vessel and crew will complete the dives.  A ROV boat is more efficient and economical at conducting the ROV dives than the Persistence with it's extra equipment and personnel.
In this case it's best to return to the site with exactly the right equipment to do the job.  The remotely operated vehicle (ROV) that is eventually sent to Aruba will be better suited for the deepest dive sites.  It will also come equipped with better recovery capabilities if necessary.  For working in the deepest portions of the search area, the SeaEye Falcon ROV had potentially insufficient tether and therefore may not have been able to reach the deepest targets. 
I look at this as a retreat.  By retreat, I mean a temporary strategic withdrawal from battle, work, or operations. It is best to return home to re-tool, plan, and procure funding rather than pressing forward beyond financial, technical, and physical limits.

Sounds like a good plan Kyle.  I hope your "retreat" is all that you need it to be.  I know you all had to be physically and mentally exhausted.  Do you have any idea on the status of the funding?  If we need to try to do more, we need to know.  I know there are many creative people that come to this forum and some had even started planning a concert to fund the effort.  Please try to get us an update as to where the donations stand, and what more is needed.  Thanks in advance!

[Observer]

I think Michael Posner is related to these other Posner's like Harry,Oiky and Luis..They go back over 40 years in Aruba and somehow they are connected through blood or business..Oiky made his fortune in the Liquor business so it could be that..All I know is you have a proud Family with the name Posner for 40 years in this tiny island of Aruba and all of a sudden a convicted Mobster changes his name to yours and moves on the island..If I was them I wouldn't be to happy about it but I get the feeling they know each other..IMO


Facing the camera on the left are the Posner's (Oiky and Greta).  We have known them for more than fourty years. They are very good friends of our family.
http://www.edcheung.com/album/album.htm

[JE]

wasn't it stated somewhere that joran introduced himself to natalee as a dutch student on vacation in aruba?
beth went to the holiday inn asking about a dutch man on vacation and was told that he was a local hanging out at the excelsior casino all the time

From greta's interview with him

VAN DER SLOOT: No, just between me and Natalee. We were speaking English to each other and I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel and that's when she said that she wanted to — she asked me if I -- if I had a big house or not and then — then she said — I said to her "Do you want to see my house?" And she's like "Yes, I want to go to your house."

how does this fit in if he first introduced himself as a tourist ?

[Observer]

wasn't it stated somewhere that joran introduced himself to natalee as a dutch student on vacation in aruba?
beth went to the holiday inn asking about a dutch man on vacation and was told that he was a local hanging out at the excelsior casino all the time

From greta's interview with him

VAN DER SLOOT: No, just between me and Natalee. We were speaking English to each other and I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel and that's when she said that she wanted to — she asked me if I -- if I had a big house or not and then — then she said — I said to her "Do you want to see my house?" And she's like "Yes, I want to go to your house."

how does this fit in if he first introduced himself as a tourist ?

It doesn't JE! He told all the MB kids he was 19 from Holland and he was staying at there hotel. He was lying to Greta about what was said and done..If they did talk about anyones house she was too drugged to realize what was going on. There are witnesses in this case that saw them go back into the bar 10 minutes later and escort her out by the elbow,theres even a bartender that says she could barely walk and two of the suspects basicly dragged her out of the bar. I don't think Natalee was even conscious longer then 10 minutes in that car and he made up most everything. As soon as she started going unconscious they put on a porno and from that point on the pimp games began

[dennisintn]

wasn't it stated somewhere that joran introduced himself to natalee as a dutch student on vacation in aruba?
beth went to the holiday inn asking about a dutch man on vacation and was told that he was a local hanging out at the excelsior casino all the time

From greta's interview with him

VAN DER SLOOT: No, just between me and Natalee. We were speaking English to each other and I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel and that's when she said that she wanted to — she asked me if I -- if I had a big house or not and then — then she said — I said to her "Do you want to see my house?" And she's like "Yes, I want to go to your house."

how does this fit in if he first introduced himself as a tourist ?

according to several mb students, he introduced himself as a student on vacation staying at the holiday inn.  he was also supposed to be l9 yrs. old and a soccer player.  i don't think natalee had any intentions of going anywhere else except back to the hotel in a cab along with jvds.  i also think she was drugged by that time by jvds and wasn't clear headed enough to do what she normally would have done.  i do remember reading that at least one of her friends said natalee asked her if she wanted to ride back with them but she all ready had plans to ride with someone else.
dennisintn

[jackb]

Hi Monkey's,
  Just got caught up reading.Watched the video link and listened to Dave and Beth.Seem's Dave thinks it all went down at the Sloots house..Bless his heart and Beth's heart too..One thing I've always wondered about and that is why Dave had to find out from his son that Natalee was missing.I wonder why Beth or Jug didn't call him immediatly..I don't know,just sad...

And you are trying to do what with your question.  Read the books.  Good try.  Not working.     Jack blue

[Observer]

Scared Monkeys Protests Aruba at the St. Louis Travel Show in St. Charles, MO and a Show of Unity for Justice…for Natalee Holloway

Travel Blogs, Travel Journals, Travelogues, Travel Diaries - TravelPod since 1997 wrote an interesting post today on
Here’s a quick excerpt
Once again there was a travel show, this time the St Louis Travel Show 2008, in St Charles, MO. Once again Scared Monkeys was present protesting Aruba and providing a show of Unity for Justice … for Natalee Holloway and all US citizens missing/murdered in foreign countries. Concerned individuals showed at the 2008 St. Louis Travel Show to provide a voice for Natalee Holloway and remind all travelers that Aruba has still done nothing to provide … Justice for Natalee. It would appear from report

http://tinyurl.com/2syno9

[jackb]

i didn't surprise me on the one hand, but i was surprised it never really came out. also, earlier you posted something about the dog incident and it mentioned a merryweather. i suspect this may be sidney merryweather. similar age, wonder if we can somehow verify the dog thing.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=107036794
[/quote
Well the entire Van Der Sloot and Hugen Family has been quiet,we don't even know which ones are paul's brothers or why him and his son are so protected. They know the names of all of Dave's kids,every MB student and everything about Natalee and her Family. Very little has come out for obvious reasons as we know years ago Van Der Straten use to work for PVDS,the more thats unraveled the more disgusted we will all be by how well he knows everyone that was involved. It is probably true with the two Judges Wit and Smit as well. It would not suprise me if other Fathers of the pimps influenced the Investigation in Aruba also.

Peter De Vries also reported about Joran killing his own dog in his first show and I take it as a fact. He killed his own pet dumped it in the Moko pond and tried to blame it on this kid. However there probably is no police record of that thanks to Van Der Straten and Pauls friends in the ALE. We saw a similar thingnder from the reports of the 3 girls who said they were drugged and assaulted by Joran,they went to the police and nothing was done. They came forward again after Natalee dissapeared but then  stepped back after Dennis Jacobs talked to them. When the KLPD looked into this,her Psychiatrist said that she was drugged and abused by Joran,but Dennis Jacobs said she was not willing to come forward because she was still in love with Joran 

Johan Va nderstratten should be arrested and put UNDER the jail.  Had he been doing the job he was supposed to do, that island would not be the mess it is.  As well many people, including NH would  be alive and many would not have been robbed, raped and abused.
    Jack Blue

[Tamikosmom]

Beth and Dave learn from the MB students that Joran had introduced himself as a student from Holland.  Why would Natalee be inquiring if Joran lived in a "big house".

As Art Wood implies ... all the Aruban authorities have to do is pay attention to Joran's lies.  Lies are created to cover the truth.  Inquiring minds ask ... what truth is Joran attempting to cover.

Janet

++++++++++

Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE

Page 30 - The last information communicated from the students before they boad their plane is that this Joran guy is a tourist from Holland.  An he is taying at the Holiday Inn.

Page 39 - Following our brief conversation, we all walk immediately to the fron desk to ask about someone named Joran who is staying in the hotel and plays in the casino here.  The Holiday Inn night manager, Brenda, knows him by name.  "Oh! yes ... yes ... Joran.  He gambles in the Excelsior Casino here.  He likes to prey on young female tourists.  Especially the blonds.  He is tall.  Good-looking boy.  Like a Dutch marine."  My mouth drops wide open.  "Where is he from?" I ask her.  She replies.  "He lives in Aruba."  I stutter.  "He's ... he's not a tourist just here for the summer?"  "Non, non," she says.

It takes a few moments to absorb this information.  The supposed tourist who befriended some of Natalee's classmates and who told them he was staying at their hotel lied tothem.  He isn't a tourist.  He isn't styaing here.


Dave Holloway
NANCY GRACE
June 27, 2005

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: I did not have the opportunity to speak with her friends, but later on, I did find out that Joran had indicated to the group that he was a student visiting here from Holland. And the group thought he was a guest at the Holiday Inn.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/27/ng.01.html


Joran van der Sloot
On the Record w/ Greta
March 6, 2006

VAN SUSTEREN: Any discussion between Carlos 'nCharlie's and the car between you and Satish or you and Natalee?

VAN DER SLOOT: No, just between me and Natalee. We were speaking English to each other and I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel and that's when she said that she wanted to — she asked me if I -- if I had a big house or not and then — then she said — I said to her "Do you want to see my house?" And she's like "Yes, I want to go to your house."

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, so the plan I assume was that, I mean you were interested in her at least I assume, correct me if I'm wrong, that you would take her back and have some sort of relationship with her at that point?

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Ever talk about it, about whether you were going to have sex or anything like that?

VAN DER SLOOT: No, not actually talk about it, no, but not like she said no. "Do you want to have sex?" No, it wasn't anything like that.

VAN SUSTEREN: That was your intention and you were hopeful that was her intention?

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186581,00.html


Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 1, 2005

WOOD: ... To solve this case, just follow the lies, Rita.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/

[texasmom]

The Persistence is completing its last leg of the journey home.  It should arrive some time on Wed.  Incredibly, the Persistence never saw anything over 4ft seas the entire way from Aruba to Mexico with 2kt currents and the wind at its stern - it made awesome time.  It had to spend a few days in Mexico where it refueled until the Gulf calmed down, but it's good to go now.  Thanks for all the prayers. 

Glad Persistence is having a safe voyage back. Something evil about the waters of Aruba, very reflective of the government, law enforcement. tourism authority and judicial system, pure evil.

  I agree, PURE EVIL!

[Observer]

Natalee Holloway Underwater Search Crew Headed Home

The crew of the "Persistence" left Louisiana in November...headed to Aruba. They've been using sonar and underwater robots to search Aruba's ocean floor for Natalee Holloway since mid -December.

It's been an expensive process - a search like this costs about $50,000 a day, according to search supervisor Tim Trahan. After three months of searching - the search party is simply out of money, but they're not out of places to look for Natalee. Trahan says the crew has used sonar to photograph almost 1000 miles of Aruba's ocean floor. Underwater robots have dove down and inspected hundreds of suspicious objects. The crew still has 150 objects left to inspect.

The "Persistence" is due home around Wednesday, but the crew says their search isn't over - just delayed. They'll now concentrate on looking for money and trying to work their way back to Aruba and what they hope will be answers.

http://tinyurl.com/ynoxqd

[jackb]

I must with Dave that the Sloot residence played an important role.  What's the consensus here...

To what extent was the VDS residence used in NH's dissapearance?

Hi Ocean,good to see you all made it back home safe.

Considering that the van der sloots decided it was a GOOD thing to give their wayward,sicko,out of control son a line of credit at the casinos and carlos&Charlies bar,and his own little private party pad at the age of 15.....I'd say joran used his little apartment for sex parties,and that he took Natalee there(like he took all of his girls there,with his parents approval),Natalee was raped and over drugged and died there.Then they possibly moved her around the dirty little island a couple of times then out to sea.

Karma ... the following segment was taken from the New York lawsuit brought again Paulus and Joran van der Sloot by Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway. 

Janet

++++++++++++

HELEN LEJUEZ - ARUBAN FAMILY ATTORNEY

Affidavid of C. Helen Lejuez
<snipped>

5. ... Miss Doe told me that she was coming forward at that time because she had had an experience that might be similar to Natalee's experience.

6. Miss Doe informed me that, one evening during early in 2005, she met Joran van der Sloot at Carlos'n Charlie's nightclub in Aruba.

7. Miss Doe told me that, over the course of the night, Joran van der Sloot gave her several alcoholic beverages. Miss Doe further stated that she believes that Joran van der Sloot placed some kind of narcotic substance in one of her drinks. The reason she believes she was drugged is that her level of intoxication was greatly disportionate to the amount of alcohol that she consumed.

8. Later that night, according to Miss Doe, Joran Van der Sloot brought Miss Doe back to his apartment, adjacent to his parent's house.

9. Miss Doe then told me that she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot as she faded in and out of conciousness, At no time did Miss Doe consent to any sexual contact with Joran van der Sloot.

10. Miss Doe advised me that, shortly after she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot, she learned that two other young women, ages 16 and 17, suffered attacks by Joran van der Sloot under similar circumstances.
11. Miss Doe told me that, in the aftermath of Joran van der Sloot's attack on Miss Doe, she was threatened and intimidated by Joran van der Sloot, his friends and others. She had been terrified to come forward and tell her story in Aruba.


Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  It definitely smells that way.  You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here.  We are talking about drugs.  We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people.  There are four guys now in custody, four best friends.  What does that tell you?
 
MANSUR:  Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends.  They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around.

And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house.  So, there is a bond between them.  There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

Thank you Janet.
The pimps of aruba live on it seems,I wonder if they were taught this game by their Daddy's.

I said this the other night (i am like Klaas "Nobody ever listens to me") but I believe this could have been an initiation into the pimps for the younger boys as this group would be moving on (except Satish who stil hasn't graduated from high school).

 

   Actually I somewhat do to and the Lamb was Valentijn who ran away.  Joran is no lamb.  NH probably was a virgin until they took her first.  Someone may have let it slip out of the MB group that she was and Joran and friends took that as a cue to kidnap her and teach her a lesson.  I have always thought that Joran's younger brother knows about this and was maybe even disgusted by it all, and the father is more trying to protect him than that sorry azzed (as is Palus) son of hisj.