Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 - 3/14/08

[private eye]

Beth is a "SUSPECT" ?!?

Q: Because now she's a suspect herself in the disappearance of her daughter?
B: Yes! Just to say something.

I can think of a lot of avenues for redress here.

Wrongful prosecution
Criminal Abuse of prosecutorial powers
Intentionally false prosecution
Defamation
Intentional misuse of taxpayer funds
Fraud

Is this just a poor translation?  This is preposterous and if true, is as damaging to Aruba, as jvds' own on-air confession remains damaging to him.

.

Everything and everybody in or connected to Aruba is SUSPECT:)

[WhiskeyGirl]

Here are some youtubes about Joran that I just noticed.  Perhaps these are related to the "witch hunt"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVbTBbpUwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93SrrQT-KEE

It seems like driving by his place was a tourist attraction, much like the home of Drew Peterson.  imho

[Tamikosmom]

I THINk that there is a possibility for tow types of suit. One is the civil suit that recently has been discussed. The second case is a criminal case after the prosecutor formally declines to prosecute and Natalee's estate would then be allowed to hire a private attorney and prosecute the case instead of the prosecutor

Hi PI.

To avoid having to turn over documents/statements/evidence to any outside party/agency ... I fear that Aruba will NEVER officially close the Natalee Holloway case.  It will be deemed an on-going investigation and ... be allowed to become a cold case.

I concur with Art Wood's contention that the Aruban house of cards will collapse on the day when one of those who played a role in the "something bad" that happened to Natalee Holloway or ... one of those who help dispose of her remains or ... one of those who was aware of or involved in the coverup which has prevented justice from prevailing comes to a place where he/she is ready to accept the consequences of his/her actions ... bows and reaches up ... reveals the truth through "genuine" repentance ... pleads for God's forgiveness and ... please the family's forgiveness.

Accountability in the justice system ordained by men may always be ellusive for many involved but ... the truth will have been revealed.

I pray that in God's perfect timing ... Natalee's family will experience the freedom that only the revealed truth can afford.  I pray that Natalee's family will be given the opportunity to forgive at least one of those ... who has contributed to the family's ongoing H--- on Earth ... when he/she repents.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Sincerely, Janet

+++++++++++

Art Wood
‘Rita Cosby Live & Direct’
December 2, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/

WOOD: … The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee’s disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they’re going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

[Anna]

Well, I just find even referring to Beth as a suspect very offensive.

I thought the burden of proof for being labeled a suspect was, according to the lovely and gracious Arleen, STRONG suspicion or reason to suspect thus and so.

Thinking it was an insurance scam because that was the false claim  they told before about Max DeVries would not qualify as reason for strong suspicion since that turned out not to be true at all.

That leaves the psychics and I do have a very hard time believing that anyone really takes them seriously.  One word against another.  But it did come from two of the government Ministers that this should be investigated so perhaps that is where this comes from?

Just more for Bram to work with, I think.  Reflects more on the mindset of the Ministers than on Beth, imo.

.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Someone (or perhaps more than one) posted about the VDS home as the crime scene. 

I recall early in the case, the blogs had a number of individuals (they also suggested "There is no evidence.") that claimed J2K and Natalee were never at the VDS home.  There was an individual that claimed witnesses had seen the Kalpoe vehicle driving in that direction.

Later, when some of the PVs were published, one of the suspects indicated that they had indeed stopped at the VDS home, but did not go in.  Perhaps they didn't go into the main family unit, but could they have gone into another building?  The neighbors house?  Who were they afraid they would wake up?  Weren't the youngsters at home and on the computer?

The story seems to fall apart after the 'visit'.  imho  Jump to the confession of Joran.  What happened in between?

Isn't it possible that 2K left one behind at the VDS place and took the car home?

The fishermen did not see them on the beach.  Someone saw a boat launched, perhaps the fisherman's?

[blah]

{{edit - Blah I've already stated I won't allow this to continue in this thread.  I'm sure you know how to start a new thread}}

[ldstlou]

thank you PI for the compliment on my little men, it is greatly aprreciated. They were so terrific!!!

[ldstlou]

Well, I just find even referring to Beth as a suspect very offensive.

I thought the burden of proof for being labeled a suspect was, according to the lovely and gracious Arleen, STRONG suspicion or reason to suspect thus and so.

Thinking it was an insurance scam because that was the false claim  they told before about Max DeVries would not qualify as reason for strong suspicion since that turned out not to be true at all.

That leaves the psychics and I do have a very hard time believing that anyone really takes them seriously.  One word against another.  But it did come from two of the government Ministers that this should be investigated so perhaps that is where this comes from?

Just more for Bram to work with, I think.  Reflects more on the mindset of the Ministers than on Beth, imo.

.

lawsuit #1 jorine,
I hope lawsuit # 2 is renho!!!!!

[blah]

{{edit - Blah I've already stated I won't allow this to continue in this thread.  I'm sure you know how to start a new thread}}

{{what part of the above didn't you understand?}}

[KarmaRoundUp]

Interesting to look at the islands yearbooks..Such a small class but yet so many with the same last name..Kock,Arendsz,Arends,Maduro..Croes..and yes Wever 

That is interesting.Lot of them look unhappy,mainly the girls.Wonder if we can find one with Lorenzo in it?

I stumbled onto a couple of years at that school but well before Lorenzo's time  No one real important in the yearbooks except Robert Wever,you may see a couple of ministers..But no one tied into this case that I know of.

http://www.colegiopariba.freeservers.com/index.html

Thank you *******.
While it's slow around here I'm going to see if I can find out more info on Lorenzo.Also,does anyone know what Freddy's parents names are?What they do on aruba?

Karma…this is some of what I have found…keep coming to dead ends…anything you can find would be appreciated…

FREDDY ZEDAN ARAMBATZIS/ARENDS…VENEZUELAN…Around 24 now and according to Joran only speaks Pap.

Father…Melody posted that he was on his death bed in Venezuela, with a smile! JE did find a 52 year old male in Venezuela…named Arambatzis.

Caps found…Zedan=0….Arambatzis=2…need to check back with him on that!

Mother.. ARAMBATZIS-RODRIGUEZ ALBERT   LILIAN REGINA
62 MONTANJA  NOORD  from Chamber records
Also have 39 F or G…not sure which right now. Also read that she was Dutch.

Kermit has an address of 7A Catiri….I followed this to a Frederick Arends on the Chamber list.

Here’s some posts I found...

Freddy's mom is a "Supervisory Director" for the Bubali Sports Club located in Noord. Bubali is also the location of the Bird Sanctuary which has 2 ponds.Here is the complete name of Freddy's mom: Freddy's mom is a "Supervisory Director" for the Bubali Sports Club located in Noord. Bubali is also the location of the Bird Sanctuary which has 2 ponds.Here is the complete name of Freddy's mom:
LILIAN REGINA ARAMBATZIS-RODRIGUEZ ALBERTIt appears that she has been married twice. I don't know if Rodriguez or Albert is her maiden name. Since she is listed as being "Dutch" I would think that "Albert" was probably her maiden name....but, I am not sure. Can anybody help me out on this? I have always thought "Zedan" was Freddy's last name until I found this other info. Could it be his middle name? You can find this information at: http://206.48.100.138/registry/registry_search.afpType in: S.C. BUBALI where it says TRADE NAME & then click search.
Posted by: Shelly | Monday, August 29, 2005
++++
 Do you remember Freddy Zedan and the house on Montana Street? His family’s name was Arambatzis-Rodriguez. There were several half- and/or step-siblings, all with different surnames.

I’m wondering if Daury could be one of them - perhaps innocent of this accusation, but related to the real person who did it.

In your post # 2,315 on previous thread, the link to picture of Freddy Zedan, code named "badboy_956", picture dated 7-13-04, shows the same guy "Freddy" as in the pictures posted earlier today.
 
He is flashing that awful gang sign, this time with both hands. There is a middle-aged woman in the background, who can't see the gang signs, and probably wouldn't know what they mean, anyway
++++
Brother … from Sharon, vms and Kermit...Ernesto Arambatzis…Miami Fl from around 1999…seems to disappeared of off the radar other than court documents from late 2007 and 2007. Graduated college in Venezuela…found that on line.

Is related to Sasha Rodriguez, maybe a half or stepsister. A couple of other Rodriguez pop up on the Dr Phil documents…not sure if they are related. Post above mentions different names.

Seems some what protected as he was let out the back door very quietly on his release and reportedly, per Harry Tho, left the country immediately.

According to a taped recording of the Kalpoes on 6/22/2005, he is the reason they were arrested!

Wow!Thank you Mum.That's a lot of info above....Sasha....joran has a Sasha listed as a family member(?)on his zorpia site I think.

[Bearlyhere]

Does anyone know anything about this complaining to the court? I've never heard of such a thing.Just curious as to what that means..

yucatexan, snoopy, Bearlyhere, Peaches, truthseeker2, BUCKSHOT, private eye, Ree, spec_ed, trimmonthelake, WhiskeyGirl..Anyone?

Sorry, Tot, I was reading through the thread.

Isn't the first thing you do is file a complaint with the court?  How else would they know what the problem is?  I don't know Aruban or Dutch law.  I think it would be the same, no?

[WhiskeyGirl]

I haven't see Frank or Robots posting lately.  I think the SM site will become suspect if Frank returns and starts saying things like "I have the utmost faith and trust in Jossy Mansur" and Robots comes back and says that Greta and Joe T. are among the finest humans in the news.  imho

[SunnyinTX]

Here are some youtubes about Joran that I just noticed.  Perhaps these are related to the "witch hunt"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVbTBbpUwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93SrrQT-KEE

It seems like driving by his place was a tourist attraction, much like the home of Drew Peterson.  imho

sure wish I could understand Dutch....thanks for psoting these...hopefully one of our Dutch posters will tell us what it's about

[Bearlyhere]

To IDSTLOU:
   Dear sweet Lady you are such a wonderful woman as well as a teacher of the young and as a leader in the Scouting program you have shown these young men that a community that is served by upstanding young men will continue to thrive and prosper , I am not just speaking of financial wealth but wealth in regards in our youth that will grow and be able to stand up responsibly for good verses evil .
  A very heartfelt thank you to you IDSTLOU and may I say again that I am proud to say that you are my friend as well as a fellow SM . (((( idstlou)))
  Jerry from Ohio

Good Morning Monkeys!!!

I am sending out my thank you notes to those who participated with us on Sunday. I think most of you know I invited some of my scouts out. I wanted you to know why. Here is the thank you note I am sending the boys and why it meant so much to me that they participated:



What brave young men you are to come out as you did on Sunday and take a stand and let your voices be heard, I am so proud of you all. You took a stand for a girl who you know of, but never actually knew, that is even more incredible to me. There are people all across America that have also taken a stand for Natalee, and most of us never knew her personally either. You are now part of a very special group of people who have given their voices to a very important cause; Justice for Natalee.

At the beginning of every Cub Scout meeting, we stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance together. We state:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
And to the Republic for which it stands:
One Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

I just want to take a minute and tell you why I am so grateful for what you did Sunday, and why I feel it is so important. I think you understand most of the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, but there are three very important words at the end that we are pledging, that we are making a commitment to, and they are; Indivisible, Liberty, and Justice. So I looked those words up in the dictionary and here is what I found:

Indivisible: incapable of being divided.

Liberty: the power of choice. The right to live one’s life without threats, fear, or some kind of retaliation.

Justice: the right to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper laws and principle.

Our Pledge of Allegiance ends with; for All. These principles we pledge to belong to EVERY AMERICAN regardless of race, religion, color, creed or any other criteria. So my understand is that essentially, we are saying that as Americans, we stand together and can not be divided, and that we are committed to Liberty, to live our lives without fear or threats, but if our Liberty is taken away, then we also are committed to Justice. That those who took away our Liberties must be held responsible according to the Law. If you break the law, then you must be held responsible for your actions.

Unfortunately, Aruba has not given Natalee Justice. Natalee's Liberties were taken away from her when she visited Aruba, and now as Americans, we are standing up to say, Natalee deserves Justice. The bad guys need to go to court and if found guilty, then they should be put in jail. This is what you stood up and said on Sunday when you were passing out the fliers. You were true to your Pledge of Allegiance, and for this, I am so very proud of you. You may be young men, but your voices are strong and you made a difference on Sunday and stood up for our beliefs, as Americans, and as Cub Scouts who Pledge Allegiance to our Flag.

Thank you so much my brave heroes!!!

Oh Jerry, you made me cry, thank you so much!!!

Those boys are defintely standing with the girl and "Modern Day Heroes!" Their leader is pretty great as well:))))))))) Good work men! Why is there always a woman standing behind a good man????????????????????????????????????????/

And behind every good woman stands herself!

 

[SunnyinTX]

Well, I just find even referring to Beth as a suspect very offensive.

I thought the burden of proof for being labeled a suspect was, according to the lovely and gracious Arleen, STRONG suspicion or reason to suspect thus and so.

Thinking it was an insurance scam because that was the false claim  they told before about Max DeVries would not qualify as reason for strong suspicion since that turned out not to be true at all.

That leaves the psychics and I do have a very hard time believing that anyone really takes them seriously.  One word against another.  But it did come from two of the government Ministers that this should be investigated so perhaps that is where this comes from?

Just more for Bram to work with, I think.  Reflects more on the mindset of the Ministers than on Beth, imo..

Anna, I think there is a lot of ammunition for Bram to take on and win a civil suit....

[kkate]

klaasend - As someone who does not say too much, but sees most everything, I just want to say you are such a "class act" and do such a great job.
 

[klaasend]

klaasend - As someone who does not say too much, but sees most everything, I just want to say you are such a "class act" and do such a great job.
 

kkate - thanks, some days are more trying than others 

[SunnyinTX]

klaasend - As someone who does not say too much, but sees most everything, I just want to say you are such a "class act" and do such a great job.
 

I'll second that.....Bless your heart!!!

[KarmaRoundUp]

Posted by Marco at RU:

03-05-08 P&W Bram Moszkowics on the show, De Vries or Joran?

De Vries or Joran, who's responsible?

Q: Good now were' going to talk about Beth Twitty, Bram Moszkowics, you have contact with her, she's in Holland now to investigate with you if Joran vd Sloot can be juridisch , is it only about Joran or also other family members"

B: At the moment we're only concentrating on Mr. Joran vd Sloot.

Q: How did you get in contact with Mrs. Twitty?

B: Today or yesterday?

Q: No no, back then....Did you contact her?

B: No, that's a misconception, I never call people and ask them if they want to be my client.
I was called by a middleman, she then called me and asked me if I want to represent her, in the beginning she has asked around how she can find someone.

Q: And in the end, somehow she came in contact with you?

B: Yes, that's how it goes.

Q: Does she have an American lawyer?

B: Yes, there was talk about that.......but that's been blown away.

Q: Which judicial system is going to deal with Joran?

B: Either in Holland or Aruba. But that's the same.

Q: Why not in America? Is that not the country of the "claim culture"?

B: That I don't know for sure, I have still not talked to her American Lawyer, but I think that it has to do with the fact where all these awful things happened, and the law enforcement.

Q: We asked Mrs.Twitty what her motivation is, at you office, and this is what she said:

(Beth talking on tape):
We have to hope that the judicial system will kick in and that he will be prosecuted and put behind bars, but you know,  but if that does not happen, you know, we're looking at a civil action, I mean it's too late for Natalee and for us, but it's not too late for other young females that might be in his path.

Q: Lets talk about the different paths you might take. How big of a change, what's the percentage, that you can win, do you have if you begin the procedure?

B: If I confine myself with the civil procedure, I think a 85 - 90% chance that I will do it, but you have to be careful, you understand that also, look this lady can not take much more, so at the moment that you start investigating, as a lawyer you have to be sure, that there is a realistic change is,more than that, that it will succeed, because what's worse for her, if I start a civil case, and Mr. vd Sloot will win, we don't want that.

Q: So a civil case, we're talking about money........

B: No, it's not about money, this woman....................has.....................a civil case, it's that.......I will represent my client and .........we will take legal civil action, not criminal but a civil action.......against vd Sloot.
That means that I am investigating, with other people around me, also on Aruba, if it makes sense that we sue the man for an unlawful act.
Unlawful act, that means  that you did something that in society you should not have been done.
There are two anchors then, I will throw those out, one what we call "shock damage", it's a form of damage, if you experienced something terrible word speaks for itself, and if you have psychological damage, my client has that also, you can demand "shock damage".
That's one way, the other possibility I am looking at, which is also interesting,  is also based on an unlawful act,  if you take someone civil lawful, keep in mind that the man made a confession, because for me there's no question in my mind, that he made the confession a whole lot of different times in that car, and because he kept silent all this time, he committed an unlawful act against my client, because, as an example, my client has been pointed out as a material suspect, and because of this she's suffering.

Q: Because now she's a suspect herself in the disappearance of her daughter?

B: Yes! Just to say something.

Q: But how can Joran vd Sloot help this?

B: Can help what?

Q: How can Joran vd Sloot help, is it his fault that Mrs Twitty has been a suspect herself, for a little while at least?

B: Well that I can tell you, it's because he consistently has denied, until the moment he did confess, has it been possible that the eyes have been pointed towards my client......

Q: But it's his right, loose from the fact IF he did it, it is your right as a suspect, to say you are innocent.

B: That's why I am talking about a civil action with you, than he does not have the right to deny the charges.

Q: That's the difference, that's what you're talking about?

B: Well, in the civil........well lets say in the criminal case the man is a suspect he can keep still, in the civil case, because he's not talking, he has caused her (Mrs Twitty) damage. So here the obligation to keep quiet does not apply here.

Q: And does that only work if can start from the point......if the judge....that  the confessions that he made in the car to Patrick  v d Eem the right confessions are

B: Well look the whole premises, and there will stand or fall the whole case with, how do you appreciate the confession, what Joran said in the car, I, myself have no doubt about that, you can argue about that, I have colleagues they do not agree with me at all, they don't see a confession what so ever, I find that ridiculous,

That was Gerard Sprong, or Mrs Riet (?)

B: I'm not sure, but you can not persevere with dry eyes that vd Sloot 5 times in the car, yes shark, no shark,  he never took one word back, not the day after he had said it, that he never confessed, that's just nonsense.
Whatever this guy has said in the car, that's going to make an impression on the judge.

Q: Shock effect, I want to.......shock effect, damage, what's the shock?

B: That she, my client physiologically has been GEDEKOMPSEERD (I can't translate that word)     (HELP PLEASE)
and she now seeing a psychologist.......

Q: And then how can you say: That's because of you, Joran?

B: Well do you have someone else in mind? You have to connect the dots, and that's what my team and I are investigating right now, to begin with, how did she get "the shock"that can be diagnosed by a psychiatrist, that she's suffering,, I think that's possible, there's a connection, you don't have to be an Einstein to make the connection between the misery this woman has now, and the fact that her daughter has disappeared.

Q: That has to do with the fact, well the confession from Joran in Patric's car, and that's one of the things that will be seen as a confession......

B: That's very important .....

Q: because there is the suggestion that one of the things......this boy is a pathological liar, he just makes stuff up, 

B: I know that, I have heard that, but that's nonsense, because the man has never been investigated by a judge, leave alone a psychiatrist, that people are now screaming that he now, let's say, a habitual liar is, you can't take that serious.

Q: But then, how is it possible, you yourself say: it's a confession, but you can't take it serious, how is it possible then that this boy is still walking around free?

B: It's a very good question, and why that is, is because ....what was said after the De Vries's show?
We do not have enough to rearrest him, I find that remarkable, because if, in the past you had enough to lock him up, what they did on Aruba, WITHOUT  the confession, then I ask myself: What more do you want if they have what they had then, they said them self it's enough to lock him up, then you get a fantastic TV show, where they show the man made 5 confessions, that he said he did it, I think then if you count 1 + 1, that also on Aruba that's 2,

Q: But I think the judge-COMMESARIS, who back then questioned Joran vd Sloot, he came to the conclusion that Joran a big fat liar is, so you can't classify the confession in a car with a lot of camera's as a confession.

B: The  judge-COMMESARIS, should not hide behind that, because if that's the fact because that's not his job, he has to determine if there's enough evidence to pick the man up again, and the same judge found there was enough to pick him up without the confession, that's important what I say now, now he's saying that with the confession there's NOT enough evidence to pick him up again.
Now it's your turn again.......... ha ha

Q: My turn, but you can also say that the "shock damage" that Mrs. Twitty has now, is not because of Joran vd Sloot but De Vries.

B: That's a different question....

Q: It might be a different question, but it's an important one.

B: Look, at the moment my client knows what Peter de Vries got from this man, is it above being a human for he to not look at it, I think, you can't set that  after what she heard from Peter de Vries, you can't say: I don't have to see this.
She wants to know this, I think as a mother, you want to know this. What happened, coming from the mouth of Joran .......

Q: So there's no responsebility for Peter R de Vries?
The question is: who caused the shock damage?
And then you have to take a step back, and say it's the one who's responsible for the show.

B: No, of course not, the shock damage has been caused because of the fact that, and I believe that, that you have to take the confession very serious, and the shock damage has happened because of what the man said he did, he said it himself.
So you can't say: The messenger has caused the shock damage, No it's Mr vd Sloot of course. Because of his actions and what he left behind.

Q: All the confession, let's call them what you call them, all the facts has been checked and they were not happy on Aruba, the boy has not been found, the boat has not been found.

B: That's true what you are saying now, but what you see often in a lawsuit is that a judge will believe a witness even though it's been proven that he lied.
So to judge to believe the witness is not the point, if you can believe him, or catch him in a lie, the judge can think: I can trust him, it makes sense what he says, or a suspect who lies, you can disconnect the two.

Q: Believability is in question, how can you bring the believability in front of a judge?

B: First of all don't forget the criminal case is still ongoing on Aruba, also my client has given me the orders, that as soon as Aruba makes the decision to not prosecute, we're going to MAKEN EEN KLACHT BY HET HOF. (Twitty, even though if the case gets dropped she's going to complain to the court on Aruba)

Lets look again at Mrs. Twitty, what she thought was the most difficult for her to watch during the show.

(Beth on tape)
When he imitated her when she's having a seizure, or is suffering or whatever, that's when......I mean............that's the part that's the most difficult for me to watch, that's this the day, or today .......I just said: I want to come through the Tv and I just want to kill him right there, I mean now I know the answer to what happened to Natalee, and I don't have to constanlty have to spearhead and manage and gosh you know I mean it's just like it's finaly put to rest I guess,

Q: Are you being motivated because of this reason or is it a client that.....?

B: No, I have to tell you that I am more motivated in this case because I can put myself in this woman shoes.

If the case is dropped I can myself bring a complain (by the courts).

Q: When are you yourself sure of the case, When are you going to start?

B: I told my client I will tell her within two weeks.

The  judge-COMMESARIS
Does this"Commesaris"mean judge or justice or is it the name of the judge?

[Tamikosmom]

Someone (or perhaps more than one) posted about the VDS home as the crime scene. 

I recall early in the case, the blogs had a number of individuals (they also suggested "There is no evidence.") that claimed J2K and Natalee were never at the VDS home.  There was an individual that claimed witnesses had seen the Kalpoe vehicle driving in that direction.

Later, when some of the PVs were published, one of the suspects indicated that they had indeed stopped at the VDS home, but did not go in.  Perhaps they didn't go into the main family unit, but could they have gone into another building?  The neighbors house?  Who were they afraid they would wake up?  Weren't the youngsters at home and on the computer?

The story seems to fall apart after the 'visit'.  imho  Jump to the confession of Joran.  What happened in between?

Isn't it possible that 2K left one behind at the VDS place and took the car home?

The fishermen did not see them on the beach.  Someone saw a boat launched, perhaps the fisherman's?

Obviously ... Jug, Dave and Beth were privy to Joran's June 13, 2005 suspect statement ... a statement that has yet to be revealed.

Janet

++++++++++

Beth Holloway
Loving Natalee

Page 136
Jug, Dave, and I go with Vinda to attorney general Theresa Croes' office.  There, prosecuting attorney Karin Janssen comes in and lays a stack of statements on the conference table in from of us.  Vinda's assistant rifles through them and begins to read one given by Joran van der Sloot, translating from Dutch to English.  Prosecutor Janssen leaves the room.  We are not told what the interrogator asks, but these are Joran's words, his responses, of June 9, 2005. We are not allowed to have copies, so I write it all down.

<snipped>

Page 141
The prime suspect, Joran, is question again on June 11, 2005.  When asked to cooperate with the police on this date he simply says, "No statement.  This is the whole truth. No more."  Then two days later, on June 13, 2005, Joran declares that his previous statements are not true and offers this account:

"My third statement is not true.  Now the truth.  We drove to my house at 1:40 a.m. on May 30.  I want her to come in.  I have sex with her.  Next, we go to the beach and walk to the fishermen's huts ... "