Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[Lala'sMom]

Just an observation here....why would you dump a body at sea in 90 feet of water knowing it would be possible to retrieve by divers?  That would not make Joran so confident that Natalee would never be found.

So, no fabric compatible with Natalee's clothing was found in the trap and none of Natalee's DNA was found either...but there was something...someone...there.  Hmmmmm. Interesting, isn't it?

I don't think he said no DNA...just none on the fabric.  No comment on DNA from the human remains....

That's what I just said...no DNA...I was talking about the fabric...sorry if I wasn't clear enough for everyone.  No DNA that belonged to Natalee on the fabric.

[truthseeker2]

Just an observation here....why would you dump a body at sea in 90 feet of water knowing it would be possible to retrieve by divers?  That would not make Joran so confident that Natalee would never be found.

So, no fabric compatible with Natalee's clothing was found in the trap and none of Natalee's DNA was found either...but there was something...someone...there.  Hmmmmm. Interesting, isn't it?

May I name a few possibilities?.....

Max DeVries
Buddy Larson
Gary Makings

[oceanexploration]

Buckeye link=topic=2705.msg366287#msg366287 date=1205856661

*original quote SNIPPED for contextual purpose:

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap.  If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level.  This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.

Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps?  I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.
-This is a different type commercial fish trap used (to my knowledge) in deep water for grouper, snapper, etc

I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?
-I didn't see any fishing boats at the port facility the entire time I was there.

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).
- Unknown, see previous post about the timing and duration

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.
- I believe the story of the trap is far from over despite Mos's press release. The other project leads feel it's best to forget about the trap and "move on" mainly for operational reasons (to focus on what may still be out there), also lack of immediate answers about the trap.  Keep in mind our tight time and financial constraints. I support their position.  It's certainly wise.
- However, I'm personally split three ways about the trap.  Not all the project leads feel as I do, but of course all the people involved in the search have highly varied levels of exposure and information particularly in relation to the trap.     

[downloadingdaddy]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

Many here are still denigrating me for saying that I still think Natalee may have been found. I still haven't seen anything to change my mind. The key word is still "may" though.

Wreck, I have thought that Natalee may have been found too, and after reading what kyle said about human remains being in the trap It's obvious that someone has been found and it could be Natalee.

[Lala'sMom]

Just an observation here....why would you dump a body at sea in 90 feet of water knowing it would be possible to retrieve by divers?  That would not make Joran so confident that Natalee would never be found.

So, no fabric compatible with Natalee's clothing was found in the trap and none of Natalee's DNA was found either...but there was something...someone...there.  Hmmmmm. Interesting, isn't it?

May I name a few possibilities?.....

Max DeVries
Buddy Larson
Gary Makings

Or someone else we have no idea about...and still it lies there on the bottom of the ocean in only 90 feet of water. 

[truthseeker2]

Kyle,

So you know if there are any plans to bring the trap up from the water by any one else?

[ala_gunslinger]

Why were we shown a 'thumbs down' signal?

I still think we are waiting on arubas next move.

[truthseeker2]

Kyle,

So you know if there are any plans to bring the trap up from the water by any one else?

So you know if there are any plans to bring the trap up from the water by any one else?

[truthseeker2]

Why were we shown a 'thumbs down' signal?

I still think we are waiting on arubas next move.

That's a good question.  If human remains were found why a thumbs down right off the bat?

[AZSunny]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Thanks Kyle, now my heart is going kr-plunk-kr-plunk-kr-plunk! 

[Tamikosmom]

As of February 28, 2008 ... Tim Trahan and Louis Schafer seem to be distancing the significance the trap/cage find and ... looking forward to the investigating of other targets.

Janet

++++++++++++++++

Tim Trahan
ABC - Eyewitness News
February 28, 2008

"And we all feel, I'm speaking from everybody on the team, that she's in one of the targets we have not looked at yet," Tim Trahan of Underwater Expeditions said. "We can't stop. I go to sleep at night thinking we've located it, we just need to get to it."

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951


Louis Schafer
ABC - Eyewitness News
February 28, 2008

"By Friday, we will have surveyed the entire 50-square mile off Aruba," Schafer said. "We have identified at least 60 of the targets. we have about 150 more targets to inspect."

<snipped>

"So we have completely mapped the ocean floor, we know every object that's there, we know every object that could be a container holding her in the sea," he said.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951


Hans Mos
Dutch Television
February 28, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxrrK53GOOA

Quote from: JE on February 28, 2008, 07:47:39 AM
He talks about the persistence search says they re looking for a needle in a haystack. He says its a difficult search assuming the needle and haystack even exist.

[Lala'sMom]

Buckeye link=topic=2705.msg366287#msg366287 date=1205856661

*original quote SNIPPED for contextual purpose:

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap.  If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level.  This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.

Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps?  I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.
-This is a different type commercial fish trap used (to my knowledge) in deep water for grouper, snapper, etc

I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?
-I didn't see any fishing boats at the port facility the entire time I was there.

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).
- Unknown, see previous post about the timing and duration

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.
- I believe the story of the trap is far from over despite Mos's press release. The other project leads feel it's best to forget about the trap and "move on" mainly for operational reasons (to focus on what may still be out there), also lack of immediate answers about the trap.  Keep in mind our tight time and financial constraints. I support their position.  It's certainly wise.
- However, I'm personally split three ways about the trap.  Not all the project leads feel as I do, but of course all the people involved in the search have highly varied levels of exposure and information particularly in relation to the trap.     

Kyle
Do you think Natalee's remains were in that trap or not?  I am known for asking the  questions in this bunch of monkeys...I want to know exactly what you think.  Thanks.

[oceanexploration]

Kyle ... I am confused.  It was my understanding that it was determined by Tim Miller, Tim Trahan as well as forensic testing that nothing significant in regards to the Natalee Holloway case was found in the cage.

Janet

- Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

Let me make myself perfectly clear...
I am not raising the issue to project my opinions, feelings or beliefs on others of what may or may not have happened.  This is all strictly for discussion purposes and NOT to raise potentially false hope.  The purpose is to share information as accurately as possible to hopefully connect some dots in an otherwise royally convoluted mess.  It's difficult to objectively analyse information and leave emotion aside, but I ask you to do that here with the information I present.  I will continue to let you know what is my opinion and what is historical.  The separation is vital.

[AZSunny]

OK Kyle, So, regarding the information you were given that there is only one place/person the trap could have come from: it is now our job to find out who and where...go monkeys!!!

[ala_gunslinger]

Kyle ... I am confused.  It was my understanding that it was determined by Tim Miller, Tim Trahan as well as forensic testing that nothing significant in regards to the Natalee Holloway case was found in the cage.

Janet

- Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

Let me make myself perfectly clear...
I am not raising the issue to project my opinions, feelings or beliefs on others of what may or may not have happened.  This is all strictly for discussion purposes and NOT to raise potentially false hope.  The purpose is to share information as accurately as possible to hopefully connect some dots in an otherwise royally convoluted mess.  It's difficult to objectively analyse information and leave emotion aside, but I ask you to do that here with the information I present.  I will continue to let you know what is my opinion and what is historical.  The separation is vital.

I understand.

[AZSunny]

Kyle ... I am confused.  It was my understanding that it was determined by Tim Miller, Tim Trahan as well as forensic testing that nothing significant in regards to the Natalee Holloway case was found in the cage.

Janet

- Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

Let me make myself perfectly clear...
I am not raising the issue to project my opinions, feelings or beliefs on others of what may or may not have happened.  This is all strictly for discussion purposes and NOT to raise potentially false hope.  The purpose is to share information as accurately as possible to hopefully connect some dots in an otherwise royally convoluted mess.  It's difficult to objectively analyse information and leave emotion aside, but I ask you to do that here with the information I present.  I will continue to let you know what is my opinion and what is historical.  The separation is vital.

Kyle,  I hope you know how much you are appreciated!! thank you.

[oceanexploration]

The fact is as the bottom line: whether true or not, according to our FBI and the Aruban chief prosecutor we are suppose to believe the trap does not contain Natalee's remains at this point.  This is based on the wording of the FBI report and Mos's press release. 
-Base on that, the project leads are wisely putting opinions one way or another aside to plan on investigating the remaining targets in the event her remains are still out there among the sonar targets.   
- I will not go on the record and state my opinion of whether or not her remains are in that trap because I do not want to sway peoples opinion, spread potentially false hope, destroy valid hope, or eliminate objectivity for other competing scenarios.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet

+++++++++++++


Tim Miller/Dave Holloway/Beth Holloway
Dateline
February 22, 2008

Chris Hansen: How hard is it for you to dial their numbers and tell them that this in fact is not the break in the case we-- we hoped for?

Tim Miller: Probably one of the hardest calls I ever made. Probably one of the hardest … probably should have never made the first one. But everything looked right at the time.

Natalee’s father was at home in Mississippi when the call came.

Chris Hansen: What was it like for you to, once again, have a setback?

Dave Holloway: That's probably about the time that-- the chest pains intensified to an extreme. I mean, how many times can I take this?

Beth Holloway: You know, it's a disappointment. But, you have to look at the magnitude and the sacrifices being made even to get to that point.

Chris Hansen: You didn't know these folks before this happened. What do they represent to you now?
 
Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.
 
To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[truthseeker2]

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.

Does that mean there was a full skeleton found?

[ala_gunslinger]

Thanks Kyle!

Can you tell us anything about the pond scan data?