Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[jackb]

I would like to state this very clearly:

I am not in any official position.  I present merely my view, and I do not reflect the views of the search team, FBI, or anyone else for that matter.  Further, what comes from me should be independantly verified as factual.  I do my best to present things as accurately as I can, but I am very much human and subject to bias in observation and prone to mistakes.  Much of what I think I know, I am often getting 2nd and 3rd hand.  Before taking anything I write and running with it as "news" it must come from someone in a 1st-hand official position after careful review.  Sorry for the disclaimer, but I feel it is necessary especially as time passes, memory fades, and as complex as things are.  I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.  As much as I've said so far, it's bound to happen.  I've already seen cases where I contradicted myself, added things, and left out details.  I ask for a grain of salt, grace, patience, and understanding that I am doing the best I can. 

Thanks  @}~~<~~~

  You got my trust, dude and my saltshaker.   J/b

[oceanexploration]

Let me clarify.. when I refered to remains.. I am refering to the presense of DNA. 

[Bladerunner]

The fact that the Coast Guard ship went back there is not surprising in the least. This is the modus operandi of Aruba to act in this way, to do whatever they can to contaminate or make disappear evdience that may have some relevance to the case.

It really is of no consequence though, the FBI has the "critical" samples from the cage. A suction and recovery would have been the best case scenario, but really what are you achieivng that isn't already accomplished in terms of evidence collection. Sure it would have been a full and complete recovery, but it doesn't matter.

We know human remains were in that cage and that they were recovered. At this point, false hope is not something to be afraid of and I for one have a positive feeling about things.

So why no word from the FBI on this? The answer is simple--leverage. They have information that Aruba does not and that gives them power.

[Buckeye]

I would like to state this very clearly:

I am not in any official position.  I present merely my view, and I do not reflect the views of the search team, FBI, or anyone else for that matter.  Further, what comes from me should be independantly verified as factual.  I do my best to present things as accurately as I can, but I am very much human and subject to bias in observation and prone to mistakes.  Much of what I think I know, I am often getting 2nd and 3rd hand.  Before taking anything I write and running with it as "news" it must come from someone in a 1st-hand official position after careful review.  Sorry for the disclaimer, but I feel it is necessary especially as time passes, memory fades, and as complex as things are.  I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.  As much as I've said so far, it's bound to happen.  I've already seen cases where I contradicted myself, added things, and left out details.  I ask for a grain of salt, grace, patience, and understanding that I am doing the best I can. 

Thanks  @}~~<~~~

Kyle

O'K, you and nothing you say, is official. 
Hope the darkside gets that, since they've already carried one of your posts.

You are just a poster, on scaredmonkeys, like the rest of us. This is a good place to hash around inconsistencies.  None of us have the purely "scientific" answers.  We hash through possible theories and situations.  At times, there are a few facts thrown in.  Each of us has some thoughts on things that "make sense" and things that don't.

You sound like you are at the "some things don't make sense" stage.  Welcome to the cage.

[Rob]

Hi Monkees...

For commercial fish traps, I think you need to look in Saventa (and not at Lorenzo LOL) I think you'll like what you find.

Whoever is in that trap it is not Max. Max was lost 6 miles down south in the area of Saventa and six miles out. That's how far they drifted.

[Buckeye]

Hi Monkees...

For commercial fish traps, I think you need to look in Saventa (and not at Lorenzo LOL) I think you'll like what you find.

Whoever is in that trap it is not Max. Max was lost 6 miles down south in the area of Saventa and six miles out. That's how far they drifted.

Rob

I can't find anything on the traps available in Aruba.   

[jackb]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

Many here are still denigrating me for saying that I still think Natalee may have been found. I still haven't seen anything to change my mind. The key word is still "may" though.

  DITTO

[Blonde]

Let me clarify.. when I refered to remains.. I am refering to the presense of DNA. 

You just don't knows who's DNA right

[Rob]

Hi Monkees...

For commercial fish traps, I think you need to look in Saventa (and not at Lorenzo LOL) I think you'll like what you find.

Whoever is in that trap it is not Max. Max was lost 6 miles down south in the area of Saventa and six miles out. That's how far they drifted.

Rob

I can't find anything on the traps available in Aruba.   

Hi Buckeye - these folks have traps. Commercial traps.

Zeerovers NV         
Savaneta
270 A    584-8401

[jackb]

Why were we shown a 'thumbs down' signal?

I still think we are waiting on arubas next move.

That's a good question.  If human remains were found why a thumbs down right off the bat?

Sometimes down means up and up means down.  Maybe done to throw off leaks.          j/b

[Rob]

This looks like a charter company - but, it's interesting because of the location.

MALMOK FISHING CHARTERS   
  . 593-9468

[Kiwi]

Oceanexploration- Kyle Thanks for being part of these discussions. New thoughts are always welcomed! Gives us a chance  to explore multiple directions from our computers.

[Magnolia]

This was posted by gagal at RU back when the photo's first
were put up at BNH.  gagal was speaking for Robin.
Kyle already told us that the FBI sent the pictures to Dave & Robin.
Gagal was replying to Heli who questioned the motives of Robin.

Did the FBI give Dave and Robin the probability statistic?

I'm not about to attest to your intelligent level or anyone else's. WHAT I do know however is that theses photos were very upsetting to Robin and Dave.. you may see just a trap on the bottom of the floor, but what they saw was the possibility of a "99% probability" this was Natalee.

[Buckeye]

Hi Monkees...

For commercial fish traps, I think you need to look in Saventa (and not at Lorenzo LOL) I think you'll like what you find.

Whoever is in that trap it is not Max. Max was lost 6 miles down south in the area of Saventa and six miles out. That's how far they drifted.

Rob

I can't find anything on the traps available in Aruba.   

Hi Buckeye - these folks have traps. Commercial traps.

Zeerovers NV         
Savaneta
270 A    584-8401

I thought that was just a docklike area where fishermen unload their catch. I didn't realize it was actually a commercial establishment.

[SS]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

Kyle,  I want to thank you so very much for everything that you have done.  You're great and we're so fortunate to have a connection to you.
I have a few questions.
1) If the FBI at Quantico tested the fabric that was found in the trap, how did they get it?  It sounds like the Dutch got their hands on the trap contents as you stood on the beach and watched.  You must have just wanted to scream when you figured out what was obviously going on.
2) Can we assume that the Dutch have the real goods and the FBI just has the fabric?
3) Is it possible that possibly very detailed DNA tests are being done on whatever was found and that no statements have been made because of the blunders in the past three years?
4) Do you have any idea who might own a fish trap that size?
5) Are there any other important people who have disappeared from Aruba who could be in that trap?
6) Do you think that it's possible there might be additional fish traps among the remaining sites that you need to inspect.
7) Could Dutch/Aruban interference be the reason why Persistence left so suddenly?

You must be very frustrated by what is now going on with the contents of the trap. You went to Aruba with a very heroic motive and you put out a lot of work. I am more than concerned if information is being withheld or if Natalee's recovery has been sabotaged by the Dutch or Arubans.  I am also terribly disappointed in even thinking about imagining that Tim Miller would cave into the Dutch or the Aruban ALE.

[oceanexploration]

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??
 

[JE]

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.

From an audio interview wit Hans Mos:

Hans mos says: At the end of december Persistence found the cage. He was contacted about possibility of cloth being in the cage.(He doesn't mention a skull just cloth)
In the first days of jan. as the seas were calmer a dive team from aruban police went to the spot again
(no mention of divers from Persistence)
Sample of cloth was taken and sent to FBI. tests took 1 month but did not match the dupilcate set of Natalee's clothing that the FBI was given by Beth Holloway
Reporter then asks if they get many new leads as a result of the PRDV show
Mos says: PRDV has received thousands and that his departement also got many and still does on a daily basis.

The coastguard has 3 cutter vessels, Panter, Jaguar and Puma

[Starr]

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??
 

Ocean

I am a bit confused.
Are you saying that this is a rumor that you heard?
 
That no remains were found, only DNA?

[Buckeye]

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??
 

Did FBI only get cloth sample??  Who took possession of the "rest" of the contents?  Who/how/what was the chain of evidence preserved, to get to the FBI? 

[Rob]

Kyle, I just want to say I think you're a truly great American and a terrific role model for young people. You gave a lot of yourself and I appreciate all of your efforts. They may not have produced the desired results yet, but it's the effort that makes you special in my eyes.

There have been a lot of people that have given so much of themselves to see Natalee brought home. Red searched a garbage dump filled with medical waste for Natalee, and that almost killed Art Wood. It took him a long time to recover.

And Tim Miller - what else can be said about that Saint? He has given so much of himself also....you're all heroes in my book. And it's in the true spirit of being an American and helping others.

So, thank you Kyle for all you have done.