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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08  (Read 345321 times)
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SS
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« Reply #780 on: March 18, 2008, 03:25:00 PM »

Several weeks ago, someone was talking about the Coast Guard boat named Panther.  The person was telling us that Panther had some kind of involvement with everything that was going on.  Does anyone remember what that was all about?  There were even pictures of Panther. 
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Rob
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« Reply #781 on: March 18, 2008, 03:30:24 PM »

Several weeks ago, someone was talking about the Coast Guard boat named Panther.  The person was telling us that Panther had some kind of involvement with everything that was going on.  Does anyone remember what that was all about?  There were even pictures of Panther. 

I *believe* Ernst Merian was on the cutter when he posted the Morse code. But that's just me....
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oceanexploration
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« Reply #782 on: March 18, 2008, 03:34:39 PM »

responding to the Quote from SS:

I have a few questions.
1) If the FBI at Quantico tested the fabric that was found in the trap, how did they get it?  It sounds like the Dutch got their hands on the trap contents as you stood on the beach and watched.  You must have just wanted to scream when you figured out what was obviously going on.
- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).
- I cannot confirm nor deny the Dutch doing anything with the site.  From my best estimate, it appeared they were on the site.  I have no other reason to base this theory on.  It's not as obvious as it sounds paraphrased.  I think it's a coin flip.



2) Can we assume that the Dutch have the real goods and the FBI just has the fabric?
- I have no idea.  I have no reason to assume or speculate on this. 

3) Is it possible that possibly very detailed DNA tests are being done on whatever was found and that no statements have been made because of the blunders in the past three years?
- I don't know.  The only thing I know is from the report that said no DNA match to Natalee in the fabric and the fabric wasn't a match to her blouse.

4) Do you have any idea who might own a fish trap that size?
-I don't know which is why I raised the question earlier.

5) Are there any other important people who have disappeared from Aruba who could be in that trap?
-I don't have a clue. It's still possible there wasn't anyone ever in the trap.  This appears to have been and remains the official stance.

6) Do you think that it's possible there might be additional fish traps among the remaining sites that you need to inspect.
-I can't comment on this because we need to inspect the targets.  This is largely the point of inspection.

7) Could Dutch/Aruban interference be the reason why Persistence left so suddenly?
- I have no reason to suspect this.  We didn't leave so suddenly.  We were there since December 15th and left over two months later.  This is hardly sudden.

You must be very frustrated by what is now going on with the contents of the trap.
- I don't know what now is going on with the contents of the trap, if anything.  It's hard to know what to think or feel.

You went to Aruba with a very heroic motive and you put out a lot of work. I am more than concerned if information is being withheld or if Natalee's recovery has been sabotaged by the Dutch or Arubans.
-sometimes information being withheld is a good thing and necessary for the sake of the case.  The only solid base for witholding info is from our FBI who say they're not commenting on the case.  This however, is nothing new and neither bad nor good.  It means nothing.  I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone.

 I am also terribly disappointed in even thinking about imagining that Tim Miller would cave into the Dutch or the Aruban ALE.
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Personally, I prefer searching for lost shipwrecks.  They're bigger and don't have living enemies.
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Bladerunner
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« Reply #783 on: March 18, 2008, 03:36:11 PM »

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??
 

Did FBI only get cloth sample??  Who took possession of the "rest" of the contents?  Who/how/what was the chain of evidence preserved, to get to the FBI? 

If I remember correctly, OE stated previously that on the first dive which was recorded by dateline a skate or some other sea creature caused a dust storm right before the signals were given by the divers. The next day a second dive and recovery was executed in which "samples" from the cage were brought to the service.

I agree, there is confusion in this thread.

The likely scenario is that human remains and cloth was brought to the surface on that second day and given to the FBI for testing. The cloth did not match samples provided by Beth to the FBI and we have yet to hear whether the DNA from human remains is a match.

So what is the deal here, does the FBI have human remains from the cage or not?
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JE
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« Reply #784 on: March 18, 2008, 03:45:24 PM »

Several weeks ago, someone was talking about the Coast Guard boat named Panther.  The person was telling us that Panther had some kind of involvement with everything that was going on.  Does anyone remember what that was all about?  There were even pictures of Panther. 

It had to do with the ship in the arubay videos
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Buckeye
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« Reply #785 on: March 18, 2008, 03:46:23 PM »

- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).


 
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oceanexploration
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« Reply #786 on: March 18, 2008, 03:48:03 PM »

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??
 

Ocean

I am a bit confused.
Are you saying that this is a rumor that you heard?
 
That no remains were found, only DNA?


The question over whether or not the FBI has human remains or not is not answerable at this point.  They are not commenting on the case.  They only commented on the fabric sample and that it's not a match to Natalee's blouse.

However, the impression I took away was based on a conversation with someone who told me there were remains, which left me rather suprised to hear from him. But, it's possible that in conversation he confused remains vs. DNA.  Honestly, I was under the impression that if there was DNA, there was remains and so I agreed with him.     
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Personally, I prefer searching for lost shipwrecks.  They're bigger and don't have living enemies.
SEARCH FOR NATALEE BLOG:
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #787 on: March 18, 2008, 03:50:58 PM »

- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).


 

YES this is not good
"I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone."
Kyle you just don't know!! what evidence was sent, and how much evidence ALE have lost already
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MumInOhio
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« Reply #788 on: March 18, 2008, 03:52:20 PM »

SS…I posted these earlier and omitted the ones for 6/17/2005, sorry about that. Koen interviewed three times and Sander twice that we know of.

http://www.hollowaycase.com/archive/civil_court_docs/arubancounselfile.htm


Name: Koen Gottenbos
Date: 16 June 2005 / 17:15
Pages: 10
Writer/Initiator: Luigi Croes & Juan Boezem
Description: witness statement of a friend of the Kalpoe's and Van der Sloot

Name: Sander Gottenbos
Date: 16 June 2005 / 17:10
Pages: 5
Writer/Initiator: Shaniro Kelly & Clyde Burke
Description: witness statement (brother of Koen Gottenbos)

Name: Sander Gottenbos
Date: 17 June 2005 / 11:15
Pages: 3
Writer/Initiator: Clyde Burke & Shaniro Kelly
Description: witness statement

Name: Koen Gottenbos
Date: 17 June 2005 111:15
Pages: 9
Writer/Initiator: Johny Erasmus & Juan Boezem
Description: witness statement

Name: Koen Gottenbos
Date: 20 June 2005 / 13:25
Pages: 2
Writer/Initiator: Juan Boezem I Johny Erasmus
Description: witness statement
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klaasend
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« Reply #789 on: March 18, 2008, 03:52:48 PM »

Top photo is a ship possibly the Panther.  Bottom photo is from the aru-bay video near Arashi and the rocks/lighthouse area:



Here is the aru-bay video in question:

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Bladerunner
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« Reply #790 on: March 18, 2008, 03:59:38 PM »

- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).


 

YES this is not good
"I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone."
Kyle you just don't know!! what evidence was sent, and how much evidence ALE have lost already



Kyle your previous post indicates that the crew of the persistence "supervised" the collection of the contents of the trap as well as items outside of the trap. So are these "samples" what was given to the FBI by Richardson?


There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.
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« Reply #791 on: March 18, 2008, 04:01:45 PM »

******* and caesu…Thank you for clearing this up. I have always thought that they were brothers and asked a couple of times for clarification when it has been posted otherwise.

Mos is mad now. and Peter de Witte (head of police - is he dutch??) is mad too.
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http://scaredmonkeys.com/2006/08/18/peter-de-witte-acting-director-of-aruban-na-coast-guard-named-new-chief-of-police-aruba/

Peter de Witte, acting Director of Aruban & NA Coast Guard named new chief of police of Aruba
 
Peter de Witte has been named the new Police Chief of Aruba following the departure of Ronny Bernadina. Peter de Witte is the acting Director of the Coast Guard for the Netherland Antilles and Aruba. Wonder if Peter de Witte will do anything that differs in the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway or will it be different chief, same old story?
 
(Amigoe: Aug 18, 2006) Peter de Witte new chief of police Aruba


yes i am 99.9% sure now betico, hendrik and rudy are brothers.
but i am still trying to get more info about rudy.
now i also want more info about hendrik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betico_Croes
betico is from 1938.

peter de witte, acting director of the Coast Guard for the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.
highly likely but not 100% sure.that he is dutch then. because the coast guard is provided by the dutch.

i am very interested how this hendrik croes thing is going to play out.
it won't help with negotiating a deal with the striking state workers who want more pay.

today is aruba-day by the way. national holiday.
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JE
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« Reply #792 on: March 18, 2008, 04:02:17 PM »

Panter

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SS
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« Reply #793 on: March 18, 2008, 04:03:14 PM »

Well Monkeys, I feel like the sandflies are dancing us around again.  How do we know that the fabric Richardson gave to the FBI was the fabric that came from the trap?  I think that we've done this dance before with ALE and their forensic investigations.  I wonder if the contents of the trap are now cataloged right along with all of the other evidence that has been found.  I have a heavy heart right now.  Sad
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oceanexploration
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« Reply #794 on: March 18, 2008, 04:04:38 PM »

This was posted by gagal at RU back when the photo's first
were put up at BNH.  gagal was speaking for Robin.
Kyle already told us that the FBI sent the pictures to Dave & Robin.
Gagal was replying to Heli who questioned the motives of Robin.

Did the FBI give Dave and Robin the probability statistic?

I'm not about to attest to your intelligent level or anyone else's. WHAT I do know however is that theses photos were very upsetting to Robin and Dave.. you may see just a trap on the bottom of the floor, but what they saw was the possibility of a "99% probability" this was Natalee.

The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap.   I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day.  I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at.  My heart broke for Dave and Beth.

Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th.  I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.  In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive. It was a crushing dissapointment the evening of Dec 30th, but not over.  The tactile inspection dive was coming. Dec 30th, 2007 will forever stand in my mind as one of the hardest single days of my life.
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Personally, I prefer searching for lost shipwrecks.  They're bigger and don't have living enemies.
SEARCH FOR NATALEE BLOG:
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/
Bladerunner
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« Reply #795 on: March 18, 2008, 04:05:50 PM »

Well Monkeys, I feel like the sandflies are dancing us around again.  How do we know that the fabric Richardson gave to the FBI was the fabric that came from the trap?  I think that we've done this dance before with ALE and their forensic investigations.  I wonder if the contents of the trap are now cataloged right along with all of the other evidence that has been found.  I have a heavy heart right now.  Sad

One would hope that whatever was taken up from that trap was guarded very closely, I have to go with what OE posted earlier when the pictures were first seen on this board:

"WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely? 
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SS
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« Reply #796 on: March 18, 2008, 04:08:29 PM »

Has anyone heard anything about the fund raising efforts to send Persistence back to Crappy Island?  Tim Miller has been awfully quiet.  I haven't heard anything since they were in Mexico with bad weather.
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oceanexploration
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« Reply #797 on: March 18, 2008, 04:09:40 PM »

Quote Bladerunner...
Kyle your previous post indicates that the crew of the persistence "supervised" the collection of the contents of the trap as well as items outside of the trap. So are these "samples" what was given to the FBI by Richardson?

-In short... the only specific item mentioned as being sent was the fabric found inside the trap.  It's unclear whether what was sent to the FBI by Richardson was limited to this fabric, or included this fabric and other items.  Someone else may know more.  This is what I'm sure of.
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Personally, I prefer searching for lost shipwrecks.  They're bigger and don't have living enemies.
SEARCH FOR NATALEE BLOG:
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #798 on: March 18, 2008, 04:12:20 PM »

Tonight on Dana Pretzer 9pm ET:

Dr Clint Van Zandt - Discusses the recent co-ed murders of Eve Carson and Lauren Burk
How to stay safe.
 
Author of the new book Serpent Box  Vincent Carrella
 
LA County Deputy DA Robin Sax  Charles Manson is back in the news again.
 
The News Breaker Larry Garrison Talking About The Spitzer prostitute scandal.

 
 
 
www.scaredmonkeysradio.com
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« Reply #799 on: March 18, 2008, 04:13:28 PM »

- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).


 

Why on earth involve ALE with anything especially a possible forensic recovery? We all know they have destroyed evidence and covered up this crime.

I understand that we all want to see someone get charged and sentenced, but this was a privately funded expedition for the family to try and get some answers to what happened and maybe some closure.

It's been 3 years and the ALE have shown the family nothing but disrespect why take the chance? I would of dropped anchor on that site until the FBI came and made the recovery!

OE, this is not a shot at you. Honestly, from the bottom of my heart I thank you for what you've done in Aruba and what you bring to this cage. I know you were not making these decisions and who ever was I'm sure thought they were doing the right thing.

Just Frustrated
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