Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[Magnolia]

Paulass - "no body, no case".

van der Stratten - "How can I do this to my best friend's son?"

Van der Stratten has to be the Fifth suspect who's family tree we should shake.  Van der Stratten doesn't surprise any of us.
I just don't get the Monkey connection. 

The 5th suspect is either Lorenzo or Paulus, I think; according to Shango or Simian.
I think it means that there is a family relationship between Paulus and Jan Van der Straaten.
I found a Professor at Tilburg University named Jan Van der Straaten.

SS does the great genealogy research.

[SS]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am so disheartened now that I know the Dutch/Arubans have the contents of the trap.  I think that we all know that the FBI received fecal matter from Richardson.  I don't feel that Tim Miller would have said anything to Beth and Dave if he wasn't really sure about what was in that trap.  From a scientific perspective, 99.9% is about as certain as it gets.  We have all seen the pictures from that cage and I don't think that there is much, if any, question in our minds that a human skull was in that trap. Tim and his crew are professionals in recovery and I doubt if they would make premature statements. Even Tim thought it was a skull. The Persistence was privately funded.  It wasn't an FBI or ALE project and yet it now seems that everything has been swept out from under us again.  For three years, Aruba has pushed our faces in the sand of that crappy little sandbar.  Paulass, v.d. Stratten, and three punk kids have thwarted the best nation on this earth. I have to feel that Kyle was giving us a very important message today and I sincerely thank him. Maybe the pictures of the cage were intentionally leaked for the purpose of letting us know what had happened, but we just "didn't get it" until now.  I don't think that a boycott of Aruba is enough.   Perhaps we need to focus on all that is Dutch.

[SS]

All around the Mulberry bush
The monkey chased the weasel.
The monkey thought t'was all in fun,
Pop! goes the weasel.

I guess v.d. Stratten is the weasel, but I don't get the correlation unless we're supposed to go after the Godfather.  How do we do that?  Mulberry bushes are as messy as that crappy island.

[SS]

"Pop Goes the Weasel" is a jig, often sung as a nursery rhyme, that dates back to 17th century England, and was spread across the Empire by colonists. The song is also associated with jack-in-the-box toys (when the song gets to "pop" the "jack" pops up).

[truthseeker2]

The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

IF YOU BUY A SHIRT IN MAY OF 2005 THEN RETURN TO THE SAME STORE TO BUY THE SAME SHIRT weeks later it may very well not be from the exact cloth that was used the first time .

Well...it's been stated that the fabric found did not match the fabric of a shirt similar to the one worn by Natalee that night.  What about her skirt?  How much fabric was found and was there only one type of fabric found and tested?

I know these are rhetorical questions...just thinking......

[AZSunny]

From oceanexploraton:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle also mentions a Dutch "recovery" boat in the area of the trap site.

Human remains were found, but a thumbs down sign was given by the divers.

Spock, read back.  The thumbs down was given during the dateline show taping. Their vision was obsured by the skate that raised the sand, and their air was running out.   A future dive on the 7th of January netted the fabric and remains. 

[Tamikosmom]

This was posted by gagal at RU back when the photo's first
were put up at BNH.  gagal was speaking for Robin.
Kyle already told us that the FBI sent the pictures to Dave & Robin.
Gagal was replying to Heli who questioned the motives of Robin.

Did the FBI give Dave and Robin the probability statistic?

I'm not about to attest to your intelligent level or anyone else's. WHAT I do know however is that theses photos were very upsetting to Robin and Dave.. you may see just a trap on the bottom of the floor, but what they saw was the possibility of a "99% probability" this was Natalee.

The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap.   I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day.  I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at.  My heart broke for Dave and Beth.

Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th.  I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.  In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive. It was a crushing dissapointment the evening of Dec 30th, but not over.  The tactile inspection dive was coming. Dec 30th, 2007 will forever stand in my mind as one of the hardest single days of my life.

As I adhere to the landfill theory ... IF Natalee was taken out to sea it was in the first week of June and ... it was not in the area of the Persistence search.  Therefore ... I contend that the contents of the cage/trap do not not pertain to the Natalee Holloway case.

Nevertheless ... I concede that the images of the trap/cage and its contents appear to reveal a skull ... not just fabric.  Also ... Kermit's closeup image leaves no doubt in my mind that Tim Miller is correct ... THERE WAS A SKULL IN THAT TRAP/CAGE.

Kyle ... I am sincerely attempting to correctly comprehend your posts regarding the contents of the cage/trap.

1.  Did your previous post imply that the Arubans took immediate possession of the contents of the trap/cage?
2.  Did you previous post imply that it was the Arubans who sent the contents of the trap/cage to the FBI?
3.  Did your previous post imply that the Aruban may have had access to the trap/cage prior to the dive led by  led by Tim Trahan ... the dive when Tim Trahan declared there was nothing?

Janet

++++++++++++


LINK: IMAGES OF TRAP/CAGE AND CONTENTS LOCATED BY THE PERSISTANCE
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.480


The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

<snipped>

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.
 
Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

Greta: Tim are they absolutely certain that this is not a piece of clothing belonging to Natalee Holloway?

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

[Magnolia]

We saw what most of us were sure was Natalee's top found at the rocks.
It has been said that her skirt was found in Lorenzo's basement by a maid.
Anita described her panties.

So fabric found in the trap would not have matched her blouse.
Any fabric would have been used to wrap her body...not a piece
of her clothing.

[Finbar]

Family Search, the Mormon database, has hundreds of Ditches listed.  We'd have no way to figure out who Paulass and Urine belong to without more information.  I wonder if our Dutch posters could poke around for us.  Paulass had to come from somewhere.   

Yes, the Mormons have a great database. Info only good as those who submit lineage, or those two guys on the bikes have time to find. There are others.

Perhaps, to find more fruit, one might need to seek another family tree.

Maybe shake the tree of a retired ex-polis and see what kinda flavour falls out.

Who knows...it may lead to the fifth and a monkey.
 


Fin

Monkey? as in one of us?

Shango, the monkey?

Flip tha coin again, sour mash gal.

There is more than one retired polis....

Maybe search: Solagnier + genaruba

=

"...Frenchman...."
"Blue blood...."
"Cousins"
"Crows"
"South American"
"Curacao"
"grandmother"
"Insurance"
"Blogs"
"ALE"
"Ex-monkey"

Fin

[Lala'sMom]

Paulass - "no body, no case".

van der Stratten - "How can I do this to my best friend's son?"

Van der Stratten has to be the Fifth suspect who's family tree we should shake.  Van der Stratten doesn't surprise any of us.
I just don't get the Monkey connection. 

Straten would not be the 5th suspect...

[Tamikosmom]

The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

IF YOU BUY A SHIRT IN MAY OF 2005 THEN RETURN TO THE SAME STORE TO BUY THE SAME SHIRT weeks later it may very well not be from the exact cloth that was used the first time .

I agree Blonde.

I suspect that the comparison used by the FBI in the forensic testing was the fabric found in the Boca Tortuga area of Aruba on July, 2005.

Also the dive was on December 30, 2007.  Why did Aruba not immediately send the fabric to the FBI for forensic testing?  Why did Aruba wait unti January 22, 2008?

Janet

++++++++++++++

Fabric/Duct Tape - Boca Tortuga
SCARED MONKEYS
June 18, 2006

What did the Aruba Park Ranger pick up at Boca Tortuga area? Fabric that matched Natalee’s Top?

What ever happened to this material? Why didn’t the media camera man take a close up of what so closely resembled the green fabric of Natalee’s top? One would have thought that they would have zoomed right in to see what had been collected.

On Sunday, July 17, 2005 the park rangers found the duct tape with long blonde hair in the Boca Tortuga area of Aruba. A park ranger being video’d walking around picks up a piece of fabric that matches Natalee’s top.

The question still remains today, what ever happened to this evidence that was collected? We also need to remember that this material that was found washed ashore following the hurricanes that took place last summer. It is highly possibly that the material washed ashore from another location on the island or from out at sea.

View fabric images:
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/06/18/what-did-the-aruba-park-ranger-pick-up-at-boca-tortuga-area-fabric-that-matched-natalees-top/


Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba
To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008
Pages 1

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

[klaasend]

Tonight on Dana Pretzer - www.scaredmonkeysradio.com

[SS]

http://www.publicintegrity.org/Content.aspx?id=579

This is an article about Alex Solagnier and the corrupt black market tobacco trade through Aruba.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/aug/22/uk.conservatives3

Whistleblower who asked too many questions faced company's wrathThe insider Director says actions helped to curb dealing

Special report: BAT exposé
Duncan Campbell The Guardian, Wednesday August 22 2001 Article historyAbout this articleClose This article appeared in the Guardian on Wednesday August 22 2001 . It was last updated at 09:23 on August 22 2001. Alex Solagnier rose from being a 17-year-old bookkeeper to being a director of an unusual trading company with an annual turnover of hundreds of millions of dollars. In the process, he says he saw at first hand the smuggling networks which in the last 10 years carried more than $1bn worth of BAT cigarettes into South America.
He was sacked at the end of 1999. In the ensuing row, the company, Romar Freezone Trading, accused him of incompetence, fraud, alcoholism and blackmail. Attempts were made to threaten him and, he says, to set him up on assault or drugs possession charges.

The company's allegations were thrown out by an Aruba court, which in December 1999, he says, awarded him full compensation for loss of his job as a director of Romar for 10 years. He agreed to talk after discovering a year later that BAT had offered to compensate Romar for his dismissal. This made him feel that BAT too wanted him removed.

Solagnier still lives in Aruba. "In the beginning, I was very scared," he says. But after briefing lawyers and officials investigating contraband and money laundering, he feels safer. "I put my story in the [local] paper. I have a little bit of protection. The point of danger has gone." He has not asked to be paid for his story.

For the tiny Caribbean island of Aruba - a popular destination for tourists from the US and the Netherlands - the thriving contraband trade built up since 1982 was not, at first, of much concern to outsiders. But by the mid-1990s, its support role in the narcotics trade had put it at the heart of global action against money laundering and drug running.

For the Arubans, work in "exports" did not seem incompatible with public service. Alex Solagnier served on local institutions such as Medicaid. He also served as president of the island's chamber of commerce and a local yacht club.

He became concerned about his employers, he says, when he began to suspect that, apart from what they were doing in Colombia, they were operating personal kickback schemes that may have been cheating the Aruba authorities and moving their wealth to other offshore havens.

In March 1999, Solagnier says he was told he had been asking too many ques tions. The company suggested he find a new job.

We asked Solagnier to fly to Washington to meet the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) last month. He took care to prove his identity, producing his passport and company records that showed his longstanding role inside Romar. These were verified from public records.

Much of what BAT had done in the early 1990s was familiar to us from a previous investigation by the ICIJ, based on BAT documents disclosed during lawsuits. Solagnier was able to describe these detailed changes in the relationship between BAT and Romar, confirming his authenticity and his memory.

Despite being warned by the judge in his 1999 case: "Are you aware that you are fighting one of the most powerful families in the country?" he agreed to speak openly. He says it is the pressure from investigations and lawsuits that has led to the shutting down of most of the illegal trade into Colombia, if not to other places.

[AZSunny]

Janet, 

The fabric that we believed to be Natalees top was in the ranger/searchers hand and he let it blow away in the breeze back in the ocean.  How could this be the same fabric?  It was shown on an early video of the search. 

Secondly, I believe that the search where they recovered the contents of the cage was done on January 7th.  It was not on the date of the filming of the Date line broadcast.

[Lala'sMom]

Janet, 

The fabric that we believed to be Natalees top was in the ranger/searchers hand and he let it blow away in the breeze back in the ocean.  How could this be the same fabric?  It was shown on an early video of the search. 

Secondly, I believe that the search where they recovered the contents of the cage was done on January 7th.  It was not on the date of the filming of the Date line broadcast.

That is correct.  How could they have any of that fabric...net...left after it was tossed into the ocean?

[ldstlou]

I am still confused by Kyle's posts. I have to go back and read them again. It seems to me he says human remails found, then retracks and says DNA is human remains, but then later says the guy who told him 2nd hand might have mistaken the word remains instead of DNA; are they one and the same or different?
Then it seems as though he says he learned from the FBI human remains were found but later says he heard this 2nd hand from a person he does not name.
Am I the only one confused by today's posts?

And can Fin please clarify the Monkey comment?
My head is starting to spin.

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, 

The fabric that we believed to be Natalees top was in the ranger/searchers hand and he let it blow away in the breeze back in the ocean.  How could this be the same fabric?  It was shown on an early video of the search. 

Secondly, I believe that the search where they recovered the contents of the cage was done on January 7th.  It was not on the date of the filming of the Date line broadcast.

1.  I have never seen the video where the fabric was allowed to blow away.  The follow FP blog would indicate that Red had not seen the video.

View fabric images:
http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/06/18/what-did-the-aruba-park-ranger-pick-up-at-boca-tortuga-area-fabric-that-matched-natalees-top/


2.  It is my understanding that Kyle's post imply that the dive was on December 30, 2005.  Nevertheless ... the fabric was not sent by the Arubans until January 22, 2008.

Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet
--------------
 
-Your frustration mirrors my own.  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers.  It was a royal mess.  I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family.  In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed.  He couldn't wait.  He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident.  It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth.  This was Dec 30th.

[ldstlou]

ok...still trying to figure this out.

Is Kyle...or actually are you Kyle..lol...depending on whether you are reading now or not...best to go straight to the source..but to the Monkeys...see if I am understanding this correctly:

I think Kyle talks about remains= DNA and human remains=skeletal remains...am I correct that he is talking about 2 separate entities?

Now I have to go back and read again about what the FBI had found, remains or human remains

[ldstlou]

ok...still trying to figure this out.

Is Kyle...or actually are you Kyle..lol...depending on whether you are reading now or not...best to go straight to the source..but to the Monkeys...see if I am understanding this correctly:

I think Kyle talks about remains= DNA and human remains=skeletal remains...am I correct that he is talking about 2 separate entities?

Now I have to go back and read again about what the FBI had found, remains or human remains

Kyle's quote:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

So is this different than skeletal remains? What exactly IS human remains? When will we get the results...if ever?

[ldstlou]

ok...still trying to figure this out.

Is Kyle...or actually are you Kyle..lol...depending on whether you are reading now or not...best to go straight to the source..but to the Monkeys...see if I am understanding this correctly:

I think Kyle talks about remains= DNA and human remains=skeletal remains...am I correct that he is talking about 2 separate entities?

Now I have to go back and read again about what the FBI had found, remains or human remains

Kyle's quote:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

So is this different than skeletal remains? What exactly IS human remains? When will we get the results...if ever?

here is a later quote:

However, the impression I took away was based on a conversation with someone who told me there were remains, which left me rather suprised to hear from him. But, it's possible that in conversation he confused remains vs. DNA.  Honestly, I was under the impression that if there was DNA, there was remains and so I agreed with him.