Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[Tamikosmom]

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt and Guido Wever were detained within a month of each other ... another Aruban "catch and release".

Janet

+++++++++++

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2005/06/08/in_depth_us/timeline700368_0_main.shtml

GEOFFREY VAN CROMVOIRT

April 18, 2006

A Dutch youth detained in the Holloway case is also being held on suspicion of drug offenses. Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt, or G.V.C, "is suspected of criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance of Miss Holloway and of offenses related to dealing in illegal narcotics," the Aruban prosecutor's office said in a statement.


April 24, 2006

Police released a 19-year-old man nine days after his arrest in the disappearance of Holloway — but the Aruba public prosecutor's office said he remained a suspect. In a statement, the prosecutor's office also said that a 20-year-old man was arrested in the Holloway case on April 22 and was released after six hours of interrogation. No details were provided. Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, the 19-year-old arrested on April 15, is suspected of "criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Holloway, prosecutors said.


GUIDO WEVER

May 17, 2006

Dutch police detain a man in the town of Utrecht on suspicion of participating in the kidnapping and killing of Natalie Holloway last year in Aruba, the suspect's lawyer said Sunday. Gerard Sponge said his client, whose name was not disclosed, was suspected of "assisting in the murder" of the Alabama high school senior.


May 23, 2006

A suspect arrested a week earlier in the Aruba disappearance of Natalee Holloway has been set free. The suspect's attorney says there wasn't enough evidence to hold his client in the Netherlands. The release of the suspect, identified only as "Guido W." because of Dutch privacy laws, means he will not be transferred to Aruba.

[oceanexploration]

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Is it possible to tell form the condition of the trap how long it might have been at its current location?

Thanks.

It's impossible to tell with any precision, but we are in agreement that the trap was not recently dropped at the time of it's discovery.  By recent, I mean disposed the same season as when it was found.  From the level of marine growth and decomposition of the trap's rigging, tubular metal frame, and square coated wire mesh, the time involved would be on the order of years, but not 10s of years.  Neither the condition of the trap or state of the items found inside the trap preclude a disposal at or near the time of Natalee's disappearance. 

[dennisintn]

Hendrik Croes detained after colliding with a police officer

Lawyer Hendrik Croes while leaving the airport after having made a statement about the possible hit and run-accident with a police officer.

ORANJESTAD – Lawyer and former Justice-minister Hendrik Croes was taken into custody early this morning for having collided with a police officer on Sunday in the afternoon and failed to stop after the accident.  The situation escalated yesterday when police union SPA incited her members to ‘bring everything to a standstill’ if Croes is not arrested.  The Public Prosecutor (OM) called on everybody to ‘stay calm’, especially the parties in the labour dispute between the government and the public employees’ unions. 

The incident took place on the roundabout of Paradera around 15:00.  At that moment, the long autocade that was taking part in the protest of the public employees’ unions against the government was just passing.  A total of 120 cars with protesting public servants took part in the auto rally that was accompanied by two police cars.  One of the police officers, Edgar Maduro, started to regulate the traffic on the roundabout.  He said that at a certain point, he saw a grey car heading for him.  When he gave the stop signal, the driver refused to stop.  “I was picked off by the car.  I opened the car door and held to it, so I couldn’t fall.  The car kept on going.”  The police officer had several bruises on his ankle, knee, and ribs.  Some colleagues took him to the hospital, and he went home after treatments, but had to be admitted later that day.

Croes in the back of the National detective’s car on his way to the bureau, where he’s going to be interrogated.  He was taken to KIA a few hours later.

Maduro self didn’t realize that the driver was Hendrik Croes, but the onlookers did.  Also the media got wind of the incident real fast and some stations linked the accident to the strike of the public employees as an attempt of the government to break the strike.  When Croes, as he said, ‘heard sensational reports about him being accused of attempted murder’, he called chief district attorney Hand Mos to give a statement.  He was at that moment at the airport, going on vacation.  Chief of police Dolfi Richardson and assistant district attorney Robert Candelaria went to the airport to take Croes’ statement.  Croes then decided to stay on the island and no longer set off.

However, a big group of police officers were not satisfied with the fact that Croes was not arrested. Miguel Maduro of union SPA called a special meeting with the members of the union and the other sympathizing officers in the clubhouse Pova.  “The law is for everybody.  A person that hits and runs is usually arrested right away.  This was an attempt to serious assault and even an attempted homicide.  I told the chief of police that if Hendrik is not arrested, we will bring everything to a standstill.”  Chief of police Peter de Witte was clearly not taken with the threat and told Maduro this later.  “The police must act objectively and transparently and let the OM do his job independently.”  In order to guarantee the objectivity, he advised the OM to transfer the case to the National-detectives, which indeed happened and Croes was taken to the bureau for interrogation.  Based on this interrogation and statements from witnesses, chief district attorney decided to take Croes into custody.  He was taken to KIA around 05:00 this morning.  He must stay there for at least 48 hours, after which the OM will decide whether to request an extension of the custody with the examining magistrate.   

Croes’ son, Eduard has meanwhile indicated that the family is preparing a lawsuit to release Hendrik from custody.  Before he was arrested, Croes emotionally declared on TeleAruba that this ‘is not something to laugh about but to cry’.  He denies having run down anybody.  “I was the third car to get on the roundabout, when a person, if I am not mistaken, wearing a polo shirt and long pants, started to regulate the traffic.  I indicated that I was going to the direction of Tanki Leendert and was trying my best to drive around this person.”  Croes also doesn’t understand how he could have hit this police officer with his car.  I was driving dead slow.  I also didn’t know that the person was a police officer.  He didn’t identify himself.”  Maduro was indeed not in uniform, but he was wearing a badge.   

Croes was not happy with certain media’s ‘very sensational reports’.  He also referred to a recent incident, where AVP-leader Mike Eman cursed him for his role in the corruption scandal Fondo Desaroyo Nobo.  “I do not understand why all this must happen this way.”

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

the new aruban national anthem.  the lyrics go "why is everybody always picking on me?"

[MumInOhio]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

Thanks AZ Sunny...That is what I thought too and thanks OE

[BTgirl]

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Is it possible to tell form the condition of the trap how long it might have been at its current location?

Thanks.

It's impossible to tell with any precision, but we are in agreement that the trap was not recently dropped at the time of it's discovery.  By recent, I mean disposed the same season as when it was found.  From the level of marine growth and decomposition of the trap's rigging, tubular metal frame, and square coated wire mesh, the time involved would be on the order of years, but not 10s of years.  Neither the condition of the trap or state of the items found inside the trap preclude a disposal at or near the time of Natalee's disappearance. 

That's exactly what I was wondering. Thanks very much.

[truthseeker2]

the new aruban national anthem.  the lyrics go "why is everybody always picking on me?"

 

[Magnolia]

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Ocean, Yesterday I saw sonar images of a wreck found off Australia.
The sonar images were not nearly as clear and pretty as yours.

[Buckeye]

Kyle

Let me get this straight, in my non-fishing, non-boater, brain:

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?

Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps?  I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.

I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.

I'm a little sceeered.....

[Blue Moon]

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Is it possible to tell form the condition of the trap how long it might have been at its current location?

Thanks.

Could it be possible it was dropped from a helicopter?  Mention of this sometime in the past that a helicopter was used to drop it in the ocean.

[oceanexploration]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

[Kermit]

http://vls.law.villanova.edu/locator/3d/Nov2001/001205.txt
In July 1998, the Drug Enforcement Agency ("DEA")
arrested defendant Luis Humberto Barbosa for importing
into this country 882 grams of cellophane-wrapped pellets
of heroin, which he had swallowed while in Aruba and
subsequently expelled in a hotel room in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania. Following the arrest, Barbosa was charged in
a complaint with possession with intent to distribute
heroin. Upon further investigation, the DEA laboratory
determined that the pellets Barbosa had swallowed
contained cocaine base with a purity of 85%, not heroin.
<snip<
Barbosa was an ancillary part of a larger DEA undercover
investigation into South American heroin suppliers who
were smuggling the drug into the United States. This
investigation ultimately resulted in the seizure of 75
kilograms of cocaine in Aruba and the arrest of five
individuals, including Emilio Medina a/k/a Felix Zorilla. As
Aruba was a critical point in the smuggling route, the DEA
had worked with the Aruban Police Department through
the DEA's Curacao Country Office.
<snip>

 the Government possessed information that Zorilla had access
to a large amount of heroin in Aruba.
<snip>

The DEA knew that
Zorilla had previously been involved in narcotics activities
with Disla, and thus directed Disla to contact Zorilla in
Aruba to negotiate a deal. Disla, however, did not know
Barbosa when he began this work for the DEA. On June
10, 1998, during a tape-recorded conversation, Zorilla
asked Disla if he could obtain a United States passport for
him to travel internationally but not to enter the United
States. Later in the conversation, Zorilla gave Disla the
pager number of his friend, "Luisin," an American citizen
who had just left Aruba for the United States. According to
Zorilla, Luisin was a "straight guy," which Disla later
testified meant someone who could be trusted with drugs.
Zorilla also stated that he had met Luisin at a restaurant
in Aruba after not seeing him for some time. Zorilla then
asked Disla whether he knew of anyone who could be used
to transport drugs into the United States.
<snip>
Barbosa traveled to Aruba on July 15, 1998. He spoke to
Salcedo on the telephone concerning the money Zorilla had
requested that he bring to Aruba. During a recorded
telephone conversation the next day, Barbosa told Disla
that Zorilla had delivered the drugs to him,
http://vls.law.villanova.edu/locator/3d/Nov2001/001205.txt
http://www.law.cornell.edu/usca/search/index.html?query=%20AND%20%20AND%20Philadelphia&scope=all

[Buckeye]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Even if the FBI would not comment to you (or me), wouldn't they let the family know, if the remains were Natalee?

[downloadingdaddy]

Kyle

Just wanted to say that I really enjoy your informative posts and I like reading between the lines of your posts. Thank you for keeping us informed.

[Kermit]

ABOUT GEORGE BOCHETTO'S LETTER TO GRETA - What kind of an attorney is George Bochetto?:


APPEALS CASE:  BOCHETTO & LENTZ, P.C.; GEORGE BOCHETTO, ESQ.
In this case, defendants sought to intimidate plaintiff, a
potential witness in federal court, by filing an allegedly
frivolous lawsuit against him and using it to generate
unfavorable publicity.

http://vls.law.vill.edu/locator/3d/Aug1999/981749.txt

Just like that Kalpoe lawsuit against Dr. Phil is a frivolous lawsuit, backed by AHTA

[MumInOhio]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

[Lala'sMom]

Just an observation here....why would you dump a body at sea in 90 feet of water knowing it would be possible to retrieve by divers?  That would not make Joran so confident that Natalee would never be found.

So, no fabric compatible with Natalee's clothing was found in the trap and none of Natalee's DNA was found either...but there was something...someone...there.  Hmmmmm. Interesting, isn't it?

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle ... I am confused.  It was my understanding that it was determined by Tim Miller, Tim Trahan as well as forensic testing that nothing significant in regards to the Natalee Holloway case was found in the cage.

Janet

+++++++++++
 


LINK: IMAGES OF TRAP/CAGE AND CONTENTS LOCATED BY THE PERSISTANCE
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.480


The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

<snipped>

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.
 
Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

(On the boat)

Brandon: We have visual on divers and target.

Slowly the divers worked their way down to the trap. They had been instructed to give a thumbs up or thumbs down.  The atmosphere in the survey room was tense, and nerves were raw as Miller, the Aruban authorities and the crew of the Persistence waited for word of what exactly was in the trap. The divers approached the target and signaled above. And then...

(On the boat) No it's thumbs down. Negative, not it.

Crushing disappointment.

(On the boat) Tim Miller: Divers coming up right now. I don't know it looked as promising today as it did last night or before.

Miller: Nothing?

Trahan: No.

Chris Hansen: That had to be a crushing blow.

Tim Miller: It was a crushing blow.
 
Now Tim Miller had to deliver that same crushing blow to Natalee’s parents.

Chris Hansen: How hard is it for you to dial their numbers and tell them that this in fact is not the break in the case we-- we hoped for?

Tim Miller: Probably one of the hardest calls I ever made. Probably one of the hardest … probably should have never made the first one. But everything looked right at the time.
 
Natalee’s father was at home in Mississippi when the call came.

Chris Hansen: What was it like for you to, once again, have a setback?
 
Dave Holloway: That's probably about the time that-- the chest pains intensified to an extreme. I mean, how many times can I take this?

Beth Holloway: You know, it's a disappointment. But, you have to look at the magnitude and the sacrifices being made even to get to that point.

Chris Hansen: You didn't know these folks before this happened. What do they represent to you now?

Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.
 
To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI.

<snipped

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/


Tim Miller
On the Record w/ Greta
February 27, 2008

Greta: Tim are they absolutely certain that this is not a piece of clothing belonging to Natalee Holloway?

MILLER: The report we got is the DNA that came back did not match Natalee's DNA and when we located that it looked like more than just a piece of cloth and I mean we, we felt as though we seen a skull in there. We got the Aruba authorities involved, they felt there was something in there, we dove on it and the thing is that's only 1 of over 170 targets out there we still have to investigate, so we've got a lot of work ahead of us.


Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba
To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008
Pages 1

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

[Buckeye]

ABOUT GEORGE BOCHETTO'S LETTER TO GRETA - What kind of an attorney is George Bochetto?:


APPEALS CASE:  BOCHETTO & LENTZ, P.C.; GEORGE BOCHETTO, ESQ.
In this case, defendants sought to intimidate plaintiff, a
potential witness in federal court, by filing an allegedly
frivolous lawsuit against him and using it to generate
unfavorable publicity.

http://vls.law.vill.edu/locator/3d/Aug1999/981749.txt

Just like that Kalpoe lawsuit against Dr. Phil is a frivolous lawsuit, backed by AHTA

A blast from the past (for Greta):

Stop the boycott against Aruba with lawsuits in the U.S.
DIARIO Aruba
11/23/2005

..... Contrary to what Minister Wever insinuated, Rainbow Warriors International is working in the general interest of Aruba and the rest of the world. This is what Milton Ponson declared last Tuesday night to DIARIO.

... According to Ponson, their organization supports a conversation with Mr. Jaap Baujon, member of the Strategic Communication Task Force and offers their services free of charge to help disarm the boycott called against Aruba.

... We are in agreement with Mr. Bob DiLella, political consultant of the MEP party, who declared in an article published on November 21, 2005 in Amigoe, that we have to become more aggressive.

To take away Beth Twitty’s strength, her defamation campaign has to be attacked as much as the media who support it as with elected officials, for example governor Bob Riley of Alabama.

Litigation is underway now, where a lawsuit has been initiated, given that among others, Dr. Phil indicated that he is NOT interested in giving the opportunity for ‘rebuttal’, and he isn’t either interested in ‘fair and accurate news coverage’

... Enough with pretty letters to Minister Bot, protests at the Plaza Betico Croes and Open Letters in the press. It is time to act!!! Ponson proposes lawsuits against the media who do not want to provide us with rebuttals and/or fair and accurate news coverage.[/i]

Translated by getagrip

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1936.240

[Buckeye]

Just an observation here....why would you dump a body at sea in 90 feet of water knowing it would be possible to retrieve by divers?  That would not make Joran so confident that Natalee would never be found.

So, no fabric compatible with Natalee's clothing was found in the trap and none of Natalee's DNA was found either...but there was something...someone...there.  Hmmmmm. Interesting, isn't it?

I don't think he said no DNA...just none on the fabric.  No comment on DNA from the human remains....

[wreck]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

Many here are still denigrating me for saying that I still think Natalee may have been found. I still haven't seen anything to change my mind. The key word is still "may" though.