Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[oceanexploration]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

[AZSunny]

Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet

+++++++++++++

Janet, I think Tim was premature in delivering both messages to Dave and Beth.  I think he was going with what he knew at the time.  I really think he was going with the info from Tim who was just out of the water in Dec.  As Kyle has pointed out, they really didn't go down to investigate the dive site until January 7th. 

[ala_gunslinger]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

[oceanexploration]

Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet
--------------
 
-Your frustration mirrors my own.  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers.  It was a royal mess.  I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family.  In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed.  He couldn't wait.  He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident.  It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth.  This was Dec 30th.

[oceanexploration]

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.

[Kermit]

Still looks like a skull to moi

[Tamikosmom]

The fact is as the bottom line: whether true or not, according to our FBI and the Aruban chief prosecutor we are suppose to believe the trap does not contain Natalee's remains at this point.  This is based on the wording of the FBI report and Mos's press release.
 
-Base on that, the project leads are wisely putting opinions one way or another aside to plan on investigating the remaining targets in the event her remains are still out there among the sonar targets.
   
- I will not go on the record and state my opinion of whether or not her remains are in that trap because I do not want to sway peoples opinion, spread potentially false hope, destroy valid hope, or eliminate objectivity for other competing scenarios.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.

Kyle ... you and everybody on Natalee forums know where Tamikosmom stands  on the credibility of Hans Mos but ... why would you doubt the FBI's position?

What reason would there be for the FBI to hold back for three months and not reveal that the remains of Natalee Holloway has been located ... the remains of Natalee Holloway can be returned to her parents ... the remains of Natalee Holloway can finally be laid to rest on American soil.  What would the reason possibly be for the FBI to lead the family to believe that the remains were not those of their beloved Natalee?

I sincerely want to know.

Janet

[Blue Moon]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.

[Kermit]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

Many here are still denigrating me for saying that I still think Natalee may have been found. I still haven't seen anything to change my mind. The key word is still "may" though.

I agree wreck

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet
--------------
 
-Your frustration mirrors my own.  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers.  It was a royal mess.  I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family.  In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed.  He couldn't wait.  He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident.  It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth.  This was Dec 30th.

Thank you Kyle.

Janet

[ala_gunslinger]

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.

Was it the Panther?

[truthseeker2]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

 

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 9:31 pm
The shivas knew the girl
the arawaks new the girl
and the babylonians still know the girl

[Tamikosmom]

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

 

Kyle ... in hindsight do you believe that involving the Aruban police ... Aruban divers ... Aruban authorities in the search for Natalee Holloway's remains ... was a wise decision or ... should the sacrificial efforts of the crew of the Persistence have been conducted independently.

Janet   

[Buckeye]

Kyle

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions.

Did the Persistence run out of money or was "the mission" completed?

Is there anything we can do?  Sounds like you must have found out who is "the one person" that would have a trap that big.  Do we need to try and get a background check...or is he self explanatory?

Not sure "trapping", with a cage that size,  is legal, but I did find on someone's blog that trapping is still done, on Aruba, for Gruns, Snapper, Parrotfish and Big Eyed Scad (Masbango). Would that be done in 90 feet of water?

Were there any "trap floats" visible? 

[oceanexploration]

Kyle ... in hindsight do you believe that involving the Aruban police ... Aruban divers ... Aruban authorities in the search for Natalee Holloway's remains ... was a wise decision or ... should the sacrificial efforts of the crew of the Persistence have been conducted independently.

Janet   
-----------

-whether a wise decision or not, it was not my decision to be made. I was under the impression that it was necessary regardless of our opinions and desires as part of working in their waters.   

[Bladerunner]

Hi Kyle,
 Are you saying that final forensic testing results have not been concluded?

It certainly seems the trap was intentionally dropped there by your description.  Fascinating anaylsis. thanks!

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Oh My!!!  Thank You!

Many here are still denigrating me for saying that I still think Natalee may have been found. I still haven't seen anything to change my mind. The key word is still "may" though.

Wreck I'm in your camp, let's not over think this. There is a logical sequence of events to all this.

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle ... in hindsight do you believe that involving the Aruban police ... Aruban divers ... Aruban authorities in the search for Natalee Holloway's remains ... was a wise decision or ... should the sacrificial efforts of the crew of the Persistence have been conducted independently.

Janet   
-----------

-whether a wise decision or not, it was not my decision to be made. I was under the impression that it was necessary regardless of our opinions and desires as part of working in their waters.   

Thank you Kyle.

I am off.  Have a good afternoon Monkeys.

Janet
11:15 AM

[Kermit]

[oceanexploration]

I would like to state this very clearly:

I am not in any official position.  I present merely my view, and I do not reflect the views of the search team, FBI, or anyone else for that matter.  Further, what comes from me should be independantly verified as factual.  I do my best to present things as accurately as I can, but I am very much human and subject to bias in observation and prone to mistakes.  Much of what I think I know, I am often getting 2nd and 3rd hand.  Before taking anything I write and running with it as "news" it must come from someone in a 1st-hand official position after careful review.  Sorry for the disclaimer, but I feel it is necessary especially as time passes, memory fades, and as complex as things are.  I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation.  As much as I've said so far, it's bound to happen.  I've already seen cases where I contradicted myself, added things, and left out details.  I ask for a grain of salt, grace, patience, and understanding that I am doing the best I can. 

Thanks  @}~~<~~~

[jackb]

Is it really necessary to put names of familymembers on the Internet.

I dunt kneeew since the slooticuses claimed Beth was decended from the Hitler crowd.
Wouldn't you say THEY opened the can of worms?   JackB

No, that's not what I was going to say. But the familymembers  of VdS did not open the can of worms either. They can't help it.

Would you like it, if you were part of the family of VdS to be dragged through the Internet?

Beth's daughter and the rest of the family never did anything either.  American's nuke.  We don't play around.  This is no game and even their priest is not above looking into.  God help us, someone is going to pay for killing that girl.  She represents to some of us America and we do not like to go missing, be messed with, slandered, or shat upon.  We got more of the stuff, more people, more brains and God, so don't mess with one or you mess with all.  Natalee just happened to go missing and by luck of the draw and by the pitifulness and aloneness of her mother who appealed to me to help her as best I can.  I am not alone in my thinking.  Now is anyone wants to know WHY Natalee.  Why US--there you have it.  No color, no richness, just luck of the draw.  God saw fit for some reason for us to assist, maybe because no one else has had the committment down there, or it seems are stalling here in the US for some reason, maybe security reasons.  BUT SOMEONE is going to give us answers or we will NEVER leave it alone.  It will not get better.  It will get worse.  Jackb

katrien,
  For what it's worth here.Jackb does not speak for all Americans and I am one of those.With that being said,for you to ask if it necessary  to have the VDS names posted on the internet,my answer is yes.Pressure is pressure and it will be applied in any shape way or form we can apply it to get justice for Natalee.We being the one's that are carrying this burden will bring anything we can to the forefront if it will help us achieve our common goal to see that justice is indeed done.Sometimes it is family members that finally get mad enough to do something and help.If any of the Sloot family members have nothing to hide,they shouldn't be worried about what could be found out about them on the internet.I don't believe we Americans as Jackb stated,"We got more of the stuff, more people, more brains and God" is anywhere close to the truth.God is not a respecter of persons and rather folks want to believe it or not,the Christians know that He(God) loves everyone the same and desires them to come to Him.I am no more important in His eyes than Yoran,Paulas,Kalpoe's,etc...To say Americans have God is implying we are the only one's that do and that is false.Christians are in all nationalities and worldwide..We here on this forum have one desire and that is to see that justice for Natalee is sought after using every tool at our disposal.If not us katrien,then who? Our government is not going to nuke any country over the disappearance of a girl on holiday,in fact,it seems they are doing nothing at all which is why this forum is so badly needed.We are a collection of souls here that are burdened about this case and that is why we are so dedicated in our searching for the truth.Please try to understand this way of thinking.Not every American feels the way we do here even though we would like to think that is true.There are many that could careless in fact.I know a few of them,however,like I said,God brought the souls here to carry the burden and be the voice for Natalee.There is always a remnant and the ones that cry for justice are that remnant of people.We are those...

Definition of remnant-leftover: a small part or portion that remains after the main part no longer exists.

Because we are the remnant,Jackb is right,we will never leave it alone.Justice must be served and one way or another,it will be.God promises that.Every man will stand accountable one day at the day of judgement and will give answer for everything,even every idle word spoken..I hope you understand alittle better now Katrien as I have enjoyed you on this forum and hope you will continue in our efforts to see to it that our only objective is to get that justice for Natalee Holloway..God Bless you...

It would be my HOPE that you would NOT have the misunderstanding, or try to create the impression that would take the euphemism used here to make it seem as though someone would actually NUKE someone over one missing person.  NUKE in this sense means we play hardball.  Your problem TOT is that you may or may not be an American.  There is American and there is American.  You do not need to explain that I do not speak for all Americans, but there certainly is a segment who agrees with most of what I am saying in part, at least.  The people who are traveling from this country in relatively recent years have become "targets" to some of the more ignorant in other countries.  They seem to make a game of injuring some of ours and then trying to sue.  It is like they are taught Americans are only there to line their pockets.  They are jealous of this country and feel they have to destroy what they cannot have.  If they would get their priorities straight they would be just as free and have a better life as most of the Americans do.
They want to put "things" before God and country, use them up and then take ours and our beliefs and twist them into their own.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.  You say what you want.  You have the right, but you do not have to explain my posts or even twist it to get foreigners on your side in this problem of getting justice where justice is deserved.  I have my way of doing things and if you think going against your own is going to help you then you will see that you are fodder like most others who have tried to get their foot in the door only to find out it was THEIR foot in YOUR door.  Pour it to it.........it can be handled.         jackb