Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 - 3/19/08

[ocgirl]

random "thinks" from the OC lurking gallery...

1.  OE is insightful, but intentionally cryptic...perhaps its best to accept this without asking for too much explanation--I, personally, trust his motives.

2.  "Who" is present in the cage....is probably not the most important aspect of this particular find....that "this" was found is creating shock-waves....that can be watched and followed.  "Implying" that it can't be ruled out as Natalee can be very "useful"....ie, following those that panic and run......

3.  After news of finding the "cage"....youngin ditch has been sequestered away from  Enquiring Minds....most likely against his will....is he coming unglued?.....(remember he tells us he's not sure where she is....does this "find" have him bumfuzzled?)

4.  Personally....less energy spent on the individual facts of the "what" of this particular cage...and more fact-finding about the "who could", "how", "when", "where", "why"....these inquiries will cause considerable "grief" for anyone following the monkey cage postings....especially if we start to get close....the "bad guys" just might tip their hand....inadvertantly

5.  Someone's dirty laundry has been been exposed....its just a matter of time before the pieces begin to fall into place....the tidy little schemes will begin to unravel and everyone will be trying to cut themselves a better deal by selling each other out....(thump, thump....thump, thump..."Can you hear the heartbeat in the floor?"....Tell Tale Heart by Edgar Allen Poe)

[Tamikosmom]

SNIPPING a quote from Janet:
Also the dive was on December 30, 2007.  Why did Aruba not immediately send the fabric to the FBI for forensic testing?  Why did Aruba wait unti January 22, 2008?
----------

- We were told by Richardson that he personally immediately sent the samples to the FBI for forensic analysis.
- I was suprised to hear the Jan-22nd date.  To me there are two weeks missing there.

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba
To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008
Pages 1

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse. The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

[wreck]

Oh, Hi OE!!!! 

Hello Wreck. 

The disclaimer is vital because I am not an official source of infomation, nor am I peer reviewed. A lot of what I share is what I was directly involved in.  However, much of what I share is 2nd and 3rd hand, but the closest we've got in some cases, hence the saltshaker should be used liberally. This is afterall an internet discussion forum and so I believe it's suitable material for discussion to see if rattling around in the monkey cage can connect some dots.  And you're correct, I personally do not feel we should disregard the trap or it's contents until we know how that trap got there and what the nature of its contents were IMO.

I understand completely!! Thanks for being here and "sharing." 

[klaasend]

random "thinks" from the OC lurking gallery...

1.  OE is insightful, but intentionally cryptic...perhaps its best to accept this without asking for too much explanation--I, personally, trust his motives.

2.  "Who" is present in the cage....is probably not the most important aspect of this particular find....that "this" was found is creating shock-waves....that can be watched and followed.  "Implying" that it can't be ruled out as Natalee can be very "useful"....ie, following those that panic and run......

3.  After news of finding the "cage"....youngin ditch has been sequestered away from  Enquiring Minds....most likely against his will....is he coming unglued?.....(remember he tells us he's not sure where she is....does this "find" have him bumfuzzled?)

4.  Personally....less energy spent on the individual facts of the "what" of this particular cage...and more fact-finding about the "who could", "how", "when", "where", "why"....these inquiries will cause considerable "grief" for anyone following the monkey cage postings....especially if we start to get close....the "bad guys" just might tip their hand....inadvertantly

5.  Someone's dirty laundry has been been exposed....its just a matter of time before the pieces begin to fall into place....the tidy little schemes will begin to unravel and everyone will be trying to cut themselves a better deal by selling each other out....(thump, thump....thump, thump..."Can you hear the heartbeat in the floor?"....Tell Tale Heart by Edgar Allen Poe)

IMO, bingo

[private eye]

SNIPPING a quote from Janet:
Also the dive was on December 30, 2007.  Why did Aruba not immediately send the fabric to the FBI for forensic testing?  Why did Aruba wait unti January 22, 2008?
----------

- We were told by Richardson that he personally immediately sent the samples to the FBI for forensic analysis.
- I was suprised to hear the Jan-22nd date.  To me there are two weeks missing there.

Hello, have you or the crew examined what was sent to the FBI from Aruba to determine if the items sent were the ones found in the cage or were there any steps taken to protect the integritry of the evidence so that you would know if they destroyed, lost, or substituted evidence? Of course, nothing productive happens in Aruba very fast, especially with them striking. Beth thought they were on strike when she first met them:)

[texasmom]

random "thinks" from the OC lurking gallery...

1.  OE is insightful, but intentionally cryptic...perhaps its best to accept this without asking for too much explanation--I, personally, trust his motives.

2.  "Who" is present in the cage....is probably not the most important aspect of this particular find....that "this" was found is creating shock-waves....that can be watched and followed.  "Implying" that it can't be ruled out as Natalee can be very "useful"....ie, following those that panic and run......

3.  After news of finding the "cage"....youngin ditch has been sequestered away from  Enquiring Minds....most likely against his will....is he coming unglued?.....(remember he tells us he's not sure where she is....does this "find" have him bumfuzzled?)

4.  Personally....less energy spent on the individual facts of the "what" of this particular cage...and more fact-finding about the "who could", "how", "when", "where", "why"....these inquiries will cause considerable "grief" for anyone following the monkey cage postings....especially if we start to get close....the "bad guys" just might tip their hand....inadvertantly

5.  Someone's dirty laundry has been been exposed....its just a matter of time before the pieces begin to fall into place....the tidy little schemes will begin to unravel and everyone will be trying to cut themselves a better deal by selling each other out....(thump, thump....thump, thump..."Can you hear the heartbeat in the floor?"....Tell Tale Heart by Edgar Allen Poe)

IMO, bingo

me too!

[Spock]

Oh, Hi OE!!!! 

Hello Wreck. 

The disclaimer is vital because I am not an official source of infomation, nor am I peer reviewed. A lot of what I share is what I was directly involved in.  However, much of what I share is 2nd and 3rd hand, but the closest we've got in some cases, hence the saltshaker should be used liberally. This is afterall an internet discussion forum and so I believe it's suitable material for discussion to see if rattling around in the monkey cage can connect some dots.  And you're correct, I personally do not feel we should disregard the trap or it's contents until we know how that trap got there and what the nature of its contents were IMO.

I am assuming that Beth and Dave are having this same discussion with the FBI?  I am also assuming the FBI are more forthcoming to them.  Would the FBI not have been called in to view the trap?  I do understand you were in Aruba's waters and this is how it had to play out but I would hope that the FBI or some other U.S. agency was involved.

Alright, I get it. They found remains, it wasn't Natalee, and the Dutch want it all hushed up to protect tourism. Can't have another unexplained death on the island.

Also guys, dont get into the "Dutch switched the fabric and remains samples" theory. There is no way that could have happened with the Persistance Team and Tim Miller looking on.

[Blue Moon]

SNIPPING a quote from Janet:
Also the dive was on December 30, 2007.  Why did Aruba not immediately send the fabric to the FBI for forensic testing?  Why did Aruba wait unti January 22, 2008?
----------

- We were told by Richardson that he personally immediately sent the samples to the FBI for forensic analysis.
- I was suprised to hear the Jan-22nd date.  To me there are two weeks missing there.

Hello, have you or the crew examined what was sent to the FBI from Aruba to determine if the items sent were the ones found in the cage or were there any steps taken to protect the integritry of the evidence so that you would know if they destroyed, lost, or substituted evidence? Of course, nothing productive happens in Aruba very fast, especially with them striking. Beth thought they were on strike when she first met them:)

My question also, kinda like the blood in the car that came back as chocolate and cleaning fluid. 

[oldfart]

Hi Monkeys 

Just dropping in to leave something I have not used in a while but still care with me on the Internet as a reminder.


For almost 3 years I have seen people come here with 2nd / 3rd hand knowledge and state that... Yet they are quizzed / questioned / pushed / hammerd like they had 1st had knowledge  Why? 

Do we think they should have done more?  Do we want their thoughts so that we can agree / disagee with them? Do we think they are lying to us?

I'm just so thankful to all that conducted the sea search and to OE  for keeping us up todate with what they could share with us.

No I will not stick around to debate what I feel, for no amount of debate will change my view, in that at times we Nit / Pick to death  those that provide information to us.
JMO
OldFart

[AZSunny]

random "thinks" from the OC lurking gallery...

1.  OE is insightful, but intentionally cryptic...perhaps its best to accept this without asking for too much explanation--I, personally, trust his motives.

2.  "Who" is present in the cage....is probably not the most important aspect of this particular find....that "this" was found is creating shock-waves....that can be watched and followed.  "Implying" that it can't be ruled out as Natalee can be very "useful"....ie, following those that panic and run......

3.  After news of finding the "cage"....youngin ditch has been sequestered away from  Enquiring Minds....most likely against his will....is he coming unglued?.....(remember he tells us he's not sure where she is....does this "find" have him bumfuzzled?)

4.  Personally....less energy spent on the individual facts of the "what" of this particular cage...and more fact-finding about the "who could", "how", "when", "where", "why"....these inquiries will cause considerable "grief" for anyone following the monkey cage postings....especially if we start to get close....the "bad guys" just might tip their hand....inadvertantly

5.  Someone's dirty laundry has been been exposed....its just a matter of time before the pieces begin to fall into place....the tidy little schemes will begin to unravel and everyone will be trying to cut themselves a better deal by selling each other out....(thump, thump....thump, thump..."Can you hear the heartbeat in the floor?"....Tell Tale Heart by Edgar Allen Poe)

IMO, bingo

me too!

Yea,  what she said!  Like I said earlier today.  It is up to us to figure out the how and who, the rest will fall in place. As OE said, who could have provided this size cage?

[ala_gunslinger]

Oh, Hi OE!!!! 

Hello Wreck. 

The disclaimer is vital because I am not an official source of infomation, nor am I peer reviewed. A lot of what I share is what I was directly involved in.  However, much of what I share is 2nd and 3rd hand, but the closest we've got in some cases, hence the saltshaker should be used liberally. This is afterall an internet discussion forum and so I believe it's suitable material for discussion to see if rattling around in the monkey cage can connect some dots.  And you're correct, I personally do not feel we should disregard the trap or it's contents until we know how that trap got there and what the nature of its contents were IMO.

I am assuming that Beth and Dave are having this same discussion with the FBI?  I am also assuming the FBI are more forthcoming to them.  Would the FBI not have been called in to view the trap?  I do understand you were in Aruba's waters and this is how it had to play out but I would hope that the FBI or some other U.S. agency was involved.

Alright, I get it. They found remains, it wasn't Natalee, and the Dutch want it all hushed up to protect tourism. Can't have another unexplained death on the island.

Well, let's just say that it is not her remains right now.

Cowboy diplomacy, if you are a true Trecker you will understand,

[Tamikosmom]

SNIPPING a quote from Janet:
Also the dive was on December 30, 2007.  Why did Aruba not immediately send the fabric to the FBI for forensic testing?  Why did Aruba wait unti January 22, 2008?
----------

- We were told by Richardson that he personally immediately sent the samples to the FBI for forensic analysis.
- I was suprised to hear the Jan-22nd date.  To me there are two weeks missing there.

Hello, have you or the crew examined what was sent to the FBI from Aruba to determine if the items sent were the ones found in the cage or were there any steps taken to protect the integritry of the evidence so that you would know if they destroyed, lost, or substituted evidence? Of course, nothing productive happens in Aruba very fast, especially with them striking. Beth thought they were on strike when she first met them:)

PI ... thank you.

You articulated my thoughts exactly.

I contend that there should have been an FBI agent on board to verify the evidence prior to being turned over to Aruban authorities?

Janet

[jackb]

From oceanexploraton:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle also mentions a Dutch "recovery" boat in the area of the trap site.

Just the blouse and not the skirt?  There was more than just one skeletal remains in that video.  I am thinking the contents were from the ocean.  The body of one the skeletal remains appeared to be drifted upward to the cage top.  The skeletal head remains seemed to be consistent in damage that was shown in the bag videos.  Also the area where the body was supposed to be first hidden photo where the trees were chopped back seemed to have the same video in there as the one that was supposed to be in the cage.  The cage video pic must have been placed in this area to give a better perspective for that area when talking about theories.    jackb

[SS]

Family Search, the Mormon database, has hundreds of Ditches listed.  We'd have no way to figure out who Paulass and Urine belong to without more information.  I wonder if our Dutch posters could poke around for us.  Paulass had to come from somewhere.   

Yes, the Mormons have a great database. Info only good as those who submit lineage, or those two guys on the bikes have time to find. There are others.

Perhaps, to find more fruit, one might need to seek another family tree.

Maybe shake the tree of a retired ex-polis and see what kinda flavour falls out.

Who knows...it may lead to the fifth and a monkey.
 


Fin

Monkey? as in one of us?

Shango, the monkey?

Flip tha coin again, sour mash gal.

There is more than one retired polis....

Maybe search: Solagnier + genaruba

=

"...Frenchman...."
"Blue blood...."
"Cousins"
"Crows"
"South American"
"Curacao"
"grandmother"
"Insurance"
"Blogs"
"ALE"
"Ex-monkey"

Fin

Fin,

Are you trying to tell us that Jossy Mansur and his family are behind Natalee's coverup?


http://www.publicintegrity.org/Report.aspx?aid=355


Twenty miles off the northern coast of Venezuela lies a tiny, sunbaked island called Aruba. Like so many self-governing Caribbean islands that cling to the coast of the Americas, it has been a smugglers paradise since colonial times. For decades, it also has been a linchpin in an illegal tobacco trade that Colombian authorities claim comprised as much as 90 percent of cigarettes sent into Colombia. The chief purveyors were two powerful Aruba families by the names of Mansur and Harms.

http://www.public-i.org/Content.aspx?src=search&context=article&id=579

Tobacco companies who publicly claim to fight against the black market in their products are suspected of organizing this market themselves. And to profit from it. Joop Bouma traced the smuggling routes, the methods and the people involved. His report starts on Aruba with a man who once carried suitcases filled with cash, all dollars, to Colombia, and who now fears for his life. Once he carried a suitcase with American dollars through customs at the Queen Beatrix airport in Oranjestad. Straight from Colombia. It was at the time that you could still get away with almost anything on Aruba. "I carried more than a million in cash. As long as you could show just a few receipts to the custom officials, they let you through," says Alex Solagnier. "Of course I knew that a lot of the money came from drugs. You always picked up your money in cash in Colombia. That's the way business with this country was done for some 80 years.

http://duncan.gn.apc.org/bat/Health_Committee_Evidence_1.htm

The basic mechanism of money laundering was that US dollars raised from cocaine sales were transferred to Aruba, and used to purchase cigarettes from agents such as the Harms or the Mansurs. The cigarettes were then smuggled into Colombia along traditional routes, and sold in urban black market centres known as Sanandresitos. The proceeds of the black market sales were then transferred to the cocaine producers, as "clean" Colombian pesos. This mechanism, known as peso broking, is the basic means of money laundering associated with cocaine trafficking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jossy_Mansur

Mansur is known for his weekly editorials which are often critical of the local government of Prime Minister Nelson Oduber. The ongoing disagreement between Mansur and Oduber dates back many years. During the election campaign in 2001, Oduber's party even had stickers made stating "Don’t believe Diario."[17]
Mansur has strongly advocated a point of view in the cases of Eduardo Mathew and Natalee Holloway. He appeared regularly on Fox News and Nancy Grace's CNN Headline News show commenting on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway on Aruba in 2005. Mansur formed his own "investigative team" and his newspaper repeatedly published new leads. According to some observers, Mansur latched onto the bandwagon as part of his own feud with the Aruban government.[18]
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/10/harrytho_1023_n.php
This is an article about Jossy Mansur’s involvement with AmSouth Bank, Interbank of Aruba, and Bancco de la Construccion in Venezuela.  Its claims that Natalee’s uncle is a key figure in AmSouth Bank. 

http://thekomisarscoop.com/1997/05/29/drug-smugglers-dutch-treat/
This article is about a Dutch investigation into Aruban and Curacao organized crime that resulted in the Mansurs and the removal of a police chief.

[ala_gunslinger]

Jack, I see you lurking.

What say you?

[private eye]

We might as well never think about the cage again because we will never know anything about it other than our speculation. Kyle was on the boat, operating a signifcant tool involved in the examination of the cage, and he doesn't know why the cage was not retrieved or why the evidence took a three week vacation in Aruba. He doesn't know what the FBI received from Aruba.

As bright as he is, as sophisticated as the equipment was, and as professional as the crew of the Persistence is, if they don't know the answers then we certainly aren't ever going to be able to determine anything about the cage.

It will be good for mental masturbation exercises only:) I hope that isn't a naughty use of the word!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Magnolia]

I found the monkey in the Van der Sloot genealogy.

 
Van Der Sloot, Vander Sloot  Posted on: 13 Mar 2004, by Rebecca Haag 
  Localities > Western Europe > Netherlands > Groningen 
...looking for relations in Groningen of the VanderSloot family. My GGG grandparents Klaas & Johanna Van Der Sloot were both born there and had a child named Douwe (born 22 July 1854). Douwe married Janna Zynvr...

   

[private eye]

From oceanexploraton:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle also mentions a Dutch "recovery" boat in the area of the trap site.

Just the blouse and not the skirt?  There was more than just one skeletal remains in that video.  I am thinking the contents were from the ocean.  The body of one the skeletal remains appeared to be drifted upward to the cage top.  The skeletal head remains seemed to be consistent in damage that was shown in the bag videos.  Also the area where the body was supposed to be first hidden photo where the trees were chopped back seemed to have the same video in there as the one that was supposed to be in the cage.  The cage video pic must have been placed in this area to give a better perspective for that area when talking about theories.    jackb

Is he saying that they found human remains in the cage, that the remains were given to the Aruban authorities, they held them for three weeks, sent them to the FBI, and the FBI reported it was not Natalee?

[Blue Moon]

O.K. has anyone ever determined who on that island has access/owns a cage that size? They would also have to have the means to release this cage in 90 ft of water without regard to the cost of the cage. It is a heavy cage so disposal would have to have been aided by something more mechanical instead of human hands.  OR could a  helicopter have accomplished this without a problem?

[jackb]

"Pop Goes the Weasel" is a jig, often sung as a nursery rhyme, that dates back to 17th century England, and was spread across the Empire by colonists. The song is also associated with jack-in-the-box toys (when the song gets to "pop" the "jack" pops up).

That would be me.  JACK b