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Author Topic: Forensic Experts at Manson Site  (Read 9393 times)
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MuffyBee
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« on: March 15, 2008, 03:39:08 PM »

Mar 15, 2:34 PM EDT

Forensic Experts at Manson Site: Dig

By JULIANA BARBASSA
Associated Press Writer

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CSI_MANSON_RANCH?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

 DEATH VALLEY NATIONAL PARK, Calif. (AP) -- Bone-white stretches of salt, leached up from the lifeless soil, lay like a shroud over the high desert where a paranoid Charles Manson holed up after an orgy of murder nearly four decades ago.

Now, as then, few venture into this alkaline wilderness - gold-diggers, outlaws, loners content to live and let live.

But a determined group of outsiders recently made the trek. They were leading forensic investigators searching for new evidence of death - clues pointing to possible decades-old clandestine graves.

And the results of just-completed followup tests suggest bodies could indeed be lying beneath the parched ground. The test findings - described in detail to The Associated Press, which had accompanied the site search - conclude there are two likely clandestine grave sites at Barker Ranch, and one additional site that merits further investigation.

Next step, the ad hoc investigators urge: Dig.

For years, rumors have swirled about other possible Manson family victims - hitchhikers who visited them at the ranch and were not seen again, runaways who drifted into the camp then fell out of favor.

The same jailhouse confessions that helped investigators initially connect the band of misfits living in the Panamint Mountains to the gruesome killings that terrorized Los Angeles hinted at other deaths. Manson follower Susan Atkins boasted to her cell mate on November 1, 1969, that there were "three people out in the desert that they done in." Other stories surfaced. In the absence of bodies, they were forgotten.

"We prosecuted Manson and the family for all the murders we could prove. But you know, could he have killed someone else? Possibly. Could another member of the family have killed someone? Sure," said Steve Kay, a former deputy district attorney.

Last month, equipped with cutting-edge forensic technology, the investigators assembled in the ghost town of Ballarat for a 20-mile ride in all-terrain vehicles to the ranch.

The team included two national lab researchers carrying instruments to detect chemical markers of human decomposition, a police investigator with a cadaver-seeking dog, and an anthropologist armed with a magnetic resonance reader.

Also in the group were a woman whose life was forever marked by the cult's brutal murder of her pregnant sister, and a gold prospector who was once Manson's closest neighbor and remains intimate with the sharp creases of the Panamints.

Prospector Emmett Harder guided the expedition.

He had a claim on Manley peak, one of the jagged points looming over Barker Ranch, while the Manson family camped out there in the late 1960s. He shared dinner with the band at times, and gave the men work.

During one of these visits he heard Manson say, "We're not hippies; we're here to get away from the troubles of the world."

Later, Harder would learn more about the cult leader's belief that the end of the world, which he called "Helter Skelter," was near - and Manson's conviction that through murder, he had a role to play in accelerating that chaotic time.

For the last 5 miles of the rugged gravel road from Ballarat, the route tilts sharply upward as it enters narrow Goler Wash.

"The family's plan was to make this impassable - you can see how you could do that here," said Sgt. Paul Dostie, a police detective and dog handler from the town of Mammoth Lakes, pointing to the boulders that protrude like bones from the canyon walls. Any of them could be rolled into the wash, blocking passage.

Barker Ranch was one of several hideouts used by Manson and his followers.

The killings that launched the cult onto national newspapers had been orchestrated from Spahn Ranch, a former Western movie set that served as backdrop to episodes of "Bonanza" and "The Lone Ranger."

It was to Spahn that the killers initially retreated after the 1969 murders of Gary Hinman on July 31; Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Voytek Frykowski, Abigail Folger and Steven Parent on Aug. 9; and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca on Aug. 10.

This was to signal the start of the apocalyptic race war that Manson told his followers would pit blacks against whites. He preached that they would emerge from the desert at the end and rule over the survivors.

But a daybreak raid on Spahn Ranch on Aug. 16 by Los Angeles sheriff's deputies looking for car thieves netted 26 arrests. All were released a few days later on a technicality - a misdated warrant - but Spahn was no longer safe.

Barker Ranch was where Manson withdrew in those last, frenzied days.

Retracing his steps nearly four decades later, the search group stopped at the dilapidated house. From the porch, the view was clear for miles, broken only by the long twisted stems of creosote bushes and knee-high bunches of desert rabbitbrush.

"After the murder, my mom became a shell of herself," said Debra Tate, who was 17 when her sister, actress Sharon Tate, was killed. Her younger sister Patti was 11. "I filled in at home, as best I could."

Debra Tate's mother, Doris Tate, emerged from years of depression when she heard that a Manson family member was seeking parole.

She gathered 350,000 signatures, helping keep the murderer in prison. She also lobbied successfully to change state law to ensure the rights of victims' family members to make statements during sentencing and parole hearings.

Doris Tate died in 1992. Her youngest daughter, Patti, followed in 2000. Now Debra Tate, 10 years younger than the glamorous, doe-eyed Sharon, whom she grew up admiring, attends the parole hearings alone.

"My mother specifically asked me to carry on," she said, adding, "It's my life."

She has given herself two tasks, she said: making sure her sister's killers never go free, and helping other families find the peace that has eluded her.

"If there are bodies here," she said at the ranch, "we need to find them and send them home."

About 100 yards behind the house, Dostie readied his trained dog, Buster, for the search.

"Go find Fred!" Dostie said, releasing the dog on the command that sends him searching for human remains.

The dog bounded away, zigzagging over the terrain. Then he lay down in a depression in the ground, quivering, ears upright. Buster looked at his trainer and emitted a high-pitched whine.

"He's alerting," Dostie said, throwing the dog his reward and planting a flag on the site.

Meanwhile, Arpad Vass and Marc Wise, senior researchers from Tennessee's Oak Ridge National Laboratory, were readying the first of the instruments they'd brought, capable of chemically detecting evidence of decades-old human bodies. It was a hand-held device shaped like a gun.

"It's a crude sniffer," said Vass. "It gives us a quick indication of areas we want to come back to."

The machine detects fluorinated hydrocarbon compounds, one of the approximately 400 types of volatile organic compounds emitted by human bodies during decomposition. Focusing on these compounds is important because Vass believes they're formed as the fluoride added to urban drinking water is released after death.

Their presence helps differentiate a human bone from bones from wild animals, explained Vass, who has spent years developing a decomposition odor database using bodies donated to the Oak Ridge lab.

The instrument beeped at regular intervals. As it approached the ground, the beeping accelerated until it was a steady stream of sound.

"That's impressive," said Wise, a senior researcher at Oak Ridge specializing in environmental analytical chemistry. Vass agreed.

Using a thin, 3-foot long probe, Vass tested the soil in the area. It slid into the ground without much effort.

"Undisturbed soil isn't this easy to probe," he said.

"The loose soil area is roughly like this," he said, using the tip of the instrument to draw a long oval on the ground. "It's about three feet deep."

"We need to do an IR," he said, turning to Wise.

He was calling for the next piece of machinery - larger and heavier, but more specific. It could be calibrated to detect different compounds, using technology known as infrared spectroscopy to "read" a particular molecule's profile.

"We're getting the highest hits here, where the ground is soft," said Wise. "There's definitely something down there," he said. "We just can't know yet exactly what until we dig."

"Or who," said Vass.

The men crouched close to the ground, gathering three samples of dirt from each area of interest for further analysis using more finely tuned lab equipment that could not be brought into the field.

The group broke for lunch. Dostie shared bread and cold cuts in front of the ranch house where Manson was finally arrested, in October 1969, after being found crammed in a bathroom cabinet.

Afterward, Daniel Larson took up his part of the investigation. An archaeologist at California State University, Long Beach, Larson has used Ground Penetrating Radar and a magnetometer - an instrument that can peer 12 feet into the ground - in archaeological work and to help find burial sites.

At Barker Ranch, he took 5,327 readings of the ground at the suspect site, stopping every four inches within a 26-by-20-foot grid, looking for discrepancies that indicated earth had been moved.

"What I'm looking for is the pit, not the bones," he explained.

He'll have to return later to use the Ground Penetrating Radar. The soil still held some moisture from recent storms, and that could disturb the results.

Watching the scientists do their work, Harder spoke of his memories of the Manson clan - the churlish, armed young men, the pretty girls with blank, doll-like expressions.

"I didn't feel real easy around them," he said. "They picked up all kinds of people - hitchhikers and stuff."

He particularly remembers two teenage runaways who escaped the ranch, then stopped at a nearby mining camp for food. They had enough fear in them to make it out of the rugged mountains barefoot, said Harder.

They turned themselves in to the California Highway Patrol at the mouth of Anvil Springs Canyon - booked as Stephanie Jean Schram, 17, a runaway from Anaheim, and Kathryn Rene Lutesinger, 17, a runaway from Los Angeles, on Oct. 10, 1969.

"Both females stated that they were attempting to run away from 'Charlie' the leader of the 'family' and that they were afraid of their lives," read the CHP report.

Their fear was well-founded. Following the police raid on Spahn Ranch in August, Manson and the family killed ranch hand Donald "Shorty" Shea for "snitching" and buried him out there.

That body wasn't found until more than eight years later.

"I dug it up myself" about a quarter-mile behind the ranch house, said Sgt. Bill Gleason, a now-retired homicide investigator with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

"There were rumors of other deaths, minors killed out in Death Valley," said Gleason, who took part in the original Spahn Ranch raid. "We just didn't have anything concrete to link to the Manson family."

The runaway girls didn't know how close they'd come to becoming another one of these rumors.

The day they turned themselves in, CHP officers headed to Barker Ranch for the first of what would be two car theft raids.

On their way, they arrested two men - booked as Gary Milton Tufts and Randy J. Mourglea - whom they found asleep at the mouth of Goler Wash, a sawed-off shotgun between them. They were from Barker Ranch, CHP said.

When told of the arrests, both girls told officers they believed the armed men were sent "to stop them from walking away," according to CHP's report.

Were others less lucky when they tried to escape?

Vass said that, considering the quantity and the types of markers of human decomposition found, the cadaver dog's response, and the probing exercise, he found enough evidence to warrant further testing at a deeper level and a full-scale excavation at Barker Ranch, according to the report he issued to law enforcement.

"I'd recommend a dig, excavate the sites," said Dostie, who reviewed the report.

But if a body is found on the Barker Ranch, then what?

The likelihood of a new prosecution appears slim. Locating remains would be just the first step, said Patrick Sequeira, the Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who has been in charge of the Manson family parole hearings since Kay's retirement.

"You have to tie them to someone who has disappeared, and there were a lot of people floating in and out of the family environment who were runaways, or hiding out," he said.

Then investigators would have to find out who killed them, where, and who could testify, he said.

The Manson family members currently in prison are already serving life sentences - the maximum penalty allowed at the time the crimes were committed.

Still, Sequeira did not discourage the efforts of the crime scene re-investigators. "I'd love to see them put something together," he said.

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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2008, 08:47:38 PM »

Thank you, MuffyBee, for posting that article. I thought everyone had forgotten the Manson murders. I remember almost all of what you wrote.

I'm haunted by the Charles Manson murders. I was about 20 years old. It was the first criminal case that caught my interest, and it was a horrible case ... but I was fascinated by it.

I know Manson has come up to the parole board and has been rejected every time. I guess that it is because the murders were so brutal.

Thanks again for posting a fascinating article.

With Love,
Louise
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 01:57:12 PM »

I've read quite a bit about the Manson family, and even though I was a kid when the Tate-LaBianca murders were committed, I do remember when they happened. Charlie Manson is a very scary man, and so are his followers. One of them was from Mobile, AL if I remember correctly.....and I think it was Patricia Krenwinkel.
I have always thought there were more bodies scattered in the desert. I hope they find them, and let the families have some closure at last.

Charles Manson is the poster boy for evil.
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 08:00:11 PM »

In 1969 the Mansons murdered Gary Hinman on July 31; Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Voytek Frykowski, Abigail Folger and Steven Parent on August. 9; and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca on August. 10.
 
I was really freaked out by the whole thing but especially by the brutal murder of the nine month pregnant Sharon Tate. She was married to the director Roman Polanski, who was in Europe making a movie and this was their first baby.
 
Well, the first thing my husband wanted to do was go to the Sebring hair salon for an expensive haircut. He dragged me with him. I felt very uncomfortable. I suspected my husband was gay and I felt so embarrassed to be there with my pregnant belly wondering what all the gay guys were thinking about the relationship between me and Jack.
 
The news reported that the LaBiancas lived in the Los Feliz area. I thought they meant Los Feliz Blvd. I was creeped out every time I drove from Hollywood to Glendale via Los Feliz Blvd. I looked at the homes and apartments along the way and wondered which one belonged to the LaBiancas. I just did some research and found that the LaBiancas lived on 3301 Waverly Drive, which was in the Los Feliz area, but not on Los Feliz. Still, every time I drive that route, I remember the Mansons.
 
On June 15, 1970, Charles Manson, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Houten, and Susan Atkins, were tried  the murders of the LaBiancas along with the victims at the Tate residence. I believe Charles Watson escaped to TX.
 
As life went on, there were many more calamities and murders in Los Angeles that took my mind off the Manson murders. At least the Manson murderers were in jail.
 
Hillside Stranglers: Kenneth Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono. For weeks in the fall of 1977, as the body count of sexually violated murdered young women escalated to 13 women, the Los Angeles Times newspaper headlined the serial killer they named the Hillside Strangler. But another year passed and there was the mysterious disappearance of 2 women in Seattle. The police arrested Kenny Bianchi and discovered the strangler was two men, Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono.  Buono were the  killer of 13 women and suggested as possibly involved in three other killings.  He killed one women who lived in an apartment one block east of me, Tamarind Avenue.

Night Stalker: Richard Ramirez. For a year, 1984, he held Los Angeles captive to fear. Dubbed the Night Stalker, he surprised his victims in their home in the dark, and the bodies mounted.  We were told that his attacks were near freeways (I'm several blocks from the freeway) and entered homes through unlocked doors, balconies and windows. There was a heat wave going on and everyone kept windows open to combat the heat. The public cried out for the police to stop this horrifying killer. But the Stalker was careful. the Night Stalker's crimes were becoming more frequent.The off-periods between his crimes were shortening, and his severity was escalating. I remember how Richard Ramirez was identified and captured. He was up to no good; cruising a Hispanic neighborhood, where he would fit in. A man recognized him and called out to others for help. They tied him up and sat on him until the police arrived.

The Southside Slayer: Chester Turner. He has been connected, through DNA, to 13 murders that occurred in Los Angeles between 1987 and 1998. He was convicted in the murder of 10 women and a fetus. He killed up to 20 prostitutes in the Los Angeles-area . No one was charged. The crimes stopped in 1987.

An unidentified serial killer preyed upon 4 California coastal communities from 1979 to 1986 murdering 10 people. These crimes spanned 3 counties and 4 law enforcement jurisdictions. DNA links 6 murders; the Method of Operation links the other 4. There may be more.
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 01:53:58 PM »

I remember it well and never forgot. I was just 13 years old at the time and this is what began my life long fascination with serial killers and mass murderers. It is only natural to believe there are plenty of dead bodies buried out there. No doubt in my mind. I always figured there were plenty there. Glad someone is finally looking into it. Hope they find peace for many families missing loved ones for so very long.
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 07:12:26 PM »

Dear Nut44x4,

This case was really fascinating to me. And like you, I began a lifelong fascination with serial killers. When I was young, I read all the Nancy Drew mysteries. Then when I was in my 20s, I started to read all the Perry Mason mysteries, written by Erle Stanley Gardner. Just having read those books, I knew what goes on in a courtroom.

Anyway, the Manson case was so perverse and violent that I'll never forget it.
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 12:23:17 PM »

May 9, 9:45 PM EDT

Dig for human remains to begin at ranch where Manson hid

By GARANCE BURKE
Associated Press Writer

 FRESNO, Calif. (AP) -- The sheriff of the remote region where Charles Manson hid after a killing spree in the summer of 1969 said Friday that he will allow researchers to begin digging into the sandy soil in search of possible human remains.

In February, a team of forensic researchers visited the Death Valley ranch where Manson took refuge and found at least two sites that could be clandestine graves holding the bodies of additional victims.

Inyo County Sheriff Bill Lutze said he will allow a limited four-day excavation at Barker Ranch beginning May 20 because forensic tests of the soil had produced mixed results.

"There was no consistent response from the dogs that searched, and no conclusive findings from the soil samplings tested by top experts in the field," Lutze said in a statement. "The only way to determine once and for all whether there are bodies buried at Barker Ranch from the time of the Manson family is to proceed with limited excavation."

National Park Service officials said Thursday that the ranch, which lies within the boundaries of Death Valley National Park in the rugged Panamint Mountain range, would be closed for as long as four days "to protect the integrity of the investigative process."

The ranch was briefly closed in April, but a decision to dig was put off because a piece of high-tech soil-testing equipment was damaged en route to the site. Authorities said they wanted to conduct tests using lasers before disturbing the soil.

Scientists completed four kinds of tests at five locations on the ranch and found some corroboration of a "possible find of human remains" at some of the sites, Lutze said.

Manson and his followers hid out in the decrepit ranch after a series of gruesome murders that set Los Angeles on edge in 1969. They were arrested there in a raid.

Manson is serving a life sentence at Corcoran State Prison for the murders of seven people, including actress Sharon Tate.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CSI_MANSON_RANCH?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:59:00 AM »

Dig At Manson Ranch Ends; No Bodies Found
Investigators Turn Up Animal Bones, But No Human Remains

POSTED: 11:38 am PDT May 22, 2008
DEATH VALLEY NATIONAL PARK, Calif. -- Investigators and scientists went to Charles Manson's last hideout to hunt for clandestine graves that could contain other possible victims.

The closest thing they found were animal bones.

The dig for human remains ended Wednesday after four sites yielded no bodies, leaving scientists puzzled over the clues that enticed them to go this far.

The excavation had been scheduled to last three days, ending Thursday. But the work went faster than scheduled, with the crew of 20 digging until dusk, then camping out at night beside the ranch house Manson and his followers had used.

"There have been no human remains found," Inyo County Sheriff Bill Lutze said. "We're finishing up this site and that'll be it for the day -- nothing."

Manson and his followers hid out at Barker Ranch after their 1969 killing spree in Los Angeles. For years, rumors have swirled about other possible Manson victims, including hitchhikers and runaways who visited the site and were never heard from again.

The clan was ultimately prosecuted for nine murders; Manson is serving a life prison sentence.

Lutze said investigators were glad they didn't find evidence of any additional victims.

"If we came up with nothing, that's great because (it means) there's nobody out here buried," he said.

Scientists who conducted a preliminary probe of the rugged, remote site in February said they identified several spots that could be graves, leading the sheriff to conduct the exploratory excavation.

By Wednesday afternoon, the four sites deemed most likely to hold human remains had been dug up and the dirt sifted. With the work done, the teams packed up and went home for good.

The search revealed little more than a .38-caliber shell casing -- found on the surface on the first day and promptly dismissed by law enforcement personnel as being recent -- and a pack rat's underground nest.

One site revealed fragments of animal bones, an ash pit and some stones used to make arrowheads. Rangers determined it was of archaeological interest, so digging stopped and the site was turned over to the National Park Service.

The rugged terrain, accessible only by four-wheel-drive vehicles, and triple-digit temperatures, made the work hard for those involved.

The nature of the soil -- dry and chocked with rocks -- made it difficult to operate some of the new forensic tools being put to work on the project, some for the first time on a case outside the laboratory, researchers said.

"The story here is not what was found or what was not found but how we looked," forensic consultant Charles Illsley said. "I can tell you based on my experience that this has been one of the most exhaustive applications for a number of combined technologies."

The researchers said the physical environment made it harder to determine what was underground. Plants that exude unusual chemicals and rocks with magnetic properties were throwing off their equipment, they said.

"I haven't been this frustrated in a very long time," said Arpad Vass, a senior researcher at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

Vass said the excavation was a learning process.

"We're trying to improve the science. It's in its infancy," he said. "There could be additional people out there. But unless there are leaps in this kind of science, we'll never know."

In Ballarat, an abandoned mining town near the mouth of the canyon that leads to the ranch, Rock Novak, the town's only resident, held out the last of a series of Manson T-shirts he had made.

Few people come through the area: off-road enthusiasts, the occasional movie crew looking for a dramatic landscape, Manson fanatics.

Even after the out-of-town crew leaves, Novak expects a trickle of visitors to the cult's abandoned home.

"Everybody loves a mystery," he said.
http://www.kcra.com/news/16364686/detail.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think we all know there are bodies there.....finding them is next to impossible, considering the vast area.
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 11:12:08 PM »

          <a href="http://" target="_blank">http://</a> I was reading  an article online that charles manson  has only  been at a few of his prole hearings. He is up for prole in 2012. ::MonkeyShocked:
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 11:14:41 PM »

im new to this sorry i made a mistake posting sorry
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 11:16:05 PM »

Welcome to Scared Monkeys annstara77    Charles Manson may be up for parole in 2012, but that doesn't mean he will get out.  I'm hoping there will be enough people to show up at the hearing and give sound reason why he shouldn't be released.  Sometimes you never know about these things though, and that can be scarey, don't you think?
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 11:20:28 PM »

im new to this sorry i made a mistake posting sorry

It's okay. 




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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 01:54:26 AM »

Parole hearings for Manson are automatically scheduled every three to five years.  He does not ask for them. He has had 11 hearings since his incarceration and been denied parole 11 times.  He will never walk free again.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From CharlieManson.com>>>

If a prisoner has a parole hearing, you can write about their release.
Your letter should include the prisoner's full name and CDC number.  You can find these here>  http://www.charliemanson.com/addresses.htm
If you'd like further information or a list of upcoming hearings, visit the California Board of Prison Terms website.

Keep your letter short and to the point.  A couple of paragraphs should easily get your point across.

If you'd like further information or a list of upcoming hearings, visit the California Board of Prison Terms website.

The address to write to is:
Board of Prison Terms
1515 K Street, Suite 600
Sacramento, CA 95814
Fax:  916-445-5242

Upcoming hearings:
Inmate Name   CDC #   Approximate Hearing Date
Patricia "Pat" Krenwinkel   W08314   January 2008
Bruce Davis   B41079   Around September 2008
Robert "Bobby" Beausoleil   B28302   Around January 2009
Susan Atkins   W08304   Around June 2009
Leslie Van Houten   W13378   Around August 2009
Charles "Tex" Watson   B37999   Around November 2011
Charles Manson   B33920   Around May 2012
William Goucher   B49737   Unsure
http://www.charliemanson.com/parole.htm
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 08:01:32 AM »


New clues may reveal Manson had a role in unsolved murders
4 hrs ago


For years it’s been suspected that the Manson family committed more murders than the nine slayings that made them infamous. Now the LAPD is getting an unprecedented peek into the murderous commune’s inner workings, having finally gotten access to tape recordings of Manson’s right-hand man, Charles Watson, talking to his lawyer when he was first arrested. The tapes were protected for decades by attorney-client privilege, but Watson gave the OK for his lawyer to sell them.
   more
http://now.msn.com/new-clues-about-manson-murders-in-accomplices-arrest-tapes
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 11:42:25 AM »


New clues may reveal Manson had a role in unsolved murders
4 hrs ago


For years it’s been suspected that the Manson family committed more murders than the nine slayings that made them infamous. Now the LAPD is getting an unprecedented peek into the murderous commune’s inner workings, having finally gotten access to tape recordings of Manson’s right-hand man, Charles Watson, talking to his lawyer when he was first arrested. The tapes were protected for decades by attorney-client privilege, but Watson gave the OK for his lawyer to sell them.
   more
http://now.msn.com/new-clues-about-manson-murders-in-accomplices-arrest-tapes
ah yes -- for money! whatever!
 
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