Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 - 3/25/08

[Buckeye]

Here's is my take... please feel free to disagree.

PRIME SUSPECT - STRONG SUSPICIONS. Everyone suspects a certain person of wrong doing. Not official. This can not lead to a charge independent of the next step, which would be ->

FORMAL SUSPECT STATUS - STRONG EVIDENCE - A case is being assembled and the charges may be reduced or increased depending on the evidence present and allowed into court by the judge of instruction. The evidence would need to lead a reasonable judge to conclude the charges are correct and the outcome could be a conviction. If the evidence is not there to lead the judge to a conviction, all proceeding would halt while investigations continue and evidence collected.

It doesn't seem to me that a trial will take place unless there is ample opportunity for conviction. The court does not want to appear to waste time and resources on a case that will end in acquittal. So, investigations continue and only when new evidence is collected will Joran be elevated to the formal status. Then a possible trial would occur if the evidence is deemed heavy enough to get a conviction.

I don't think formal status necessarily indicates a trial.  It didn't before.  But it can permit tapping of phones etc.  I agree there won't be a trial without "evidence" but that is a separate issue from suspect status IMO.

[Observer]

It's possible to have been 10 years or so.  I don't know for certain and don't have any way to readily test this. The trap was somewhat intact.  It's north side was in poor shape, with significant deterioration of it's northern panels.  The trap's doop is usually fastened to the outside of the trap.  It was laying inside the trap, as if pushed open. The contents sampled inside the trap were laying on top of the door.  The trap was found in 90 ft.

I wonder if it suffered damage from being dropped 90 feet or just wear and tear from years down on the ocean floor? Or possibly just discarded from a ship getting rid of it and was already in bad condition? That was a big heavy cage and in Aruba it would probably just sit around forever and never be used.IMO


If there was Human Remains found in that cage Bud Larson would be on the top of my list of people that it could be. He was last seen June 9, 1999

Willard Buddy Larson went missing after a public fight with the rental office at the Windsurf Village board shop,where he was to get the windsurfing equipment. They did not have the equipment he had reserved so he got into an altercation with them and left. He disappeared somewhere between the rental office and his hotel...

He never returned to the hotel, and the hotel filed a missing persons report that was ignored by the police till the family arrived and had to search on their own. When they rented out his room,the next group of tourists found his wallet in the couch.

[Destiny]

KLAAS...I replied to you...ball is still in your park...

[Tamikosmom]

Here's is my take... please feel free to disagree.

PRIME SUSPECT - STRONG SUSPICIONS. Everyone suspects a certain person of wrong doing. Not official. This can not lead to a charge independent of the next step, which would be ->

FORMAL SUSPECT STATUS - STRONG EVIDENCE - A case is being assembled and the charges may be reduced or increased depending on the evidence present and allowed into court by the judge of instruction. The evidence would need to lead a reasonable judge to conclude the charges are correct and the outcome could be a conviction. If the evidence is not there to lead the judge to a conviction, all proceeding would halt while investigations continue and evidence collected.

It doesn't seem to me that a trial will take place unless there is ample opportunity for conviction. The court does not want to appear to waste time and resources on a case that will end in acquittal. So, investigations continue and only when new evidence is collected will Joran be elevated to the formal status. Then a possible trial would occur if the evidence is deemed heavy enough to get a conviction.

Rob ... you are correct.  There is another level of suspicion that would warrant a suspect to be detained.  I would imagine that this would warranted the titled of "formal" suspect.

Janet

+++++++++

Detainment/Arrest - Strong/SeriousSuspicions

Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005

ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system.  You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/ng.01.html


Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8079019/

[Observer]

#  Helen Larson on June 6th, 2005 11:23 pm

The Larson family’s prayers are with the Holloway family as they suffer through through this tragic ordeal. We also had a family member go missing in Aruba in June of 1999. Willard “Bud” Larson. God Bless.

[Rob]

Here's is my take... please feel free to disagree.

PRIME SUSPECT - STRONG SUSPICIONS. Everyone suspects a certain person of wrong doing. Not official. This can not lead to a charge independent of the next step, which would be ->

FORMAL SUSPECT STATUS - STRONG EVIDENCE - A case is being assembled and the charges may be reduced or increased depending on the evidence present and allowed into court by the judge of instruction. The evidence would need to lead a reasonable judge to conclude the charges are correct and the outcome could be a conviction. If the evidence is not there to lead the judge to a conviction, all proceeding would halt while investigations continue and evidence collected.

It doesn't seem to me that a trial will take place unless there is ample opportunity for conviction. The court does not want to appear to waste time and resources on a case that will end in acquittal. So, investigations continue and only when new evidence is collected will Joran be elevated to the formal status. Then a possible trial would occur if the evidence is deemed heavy enough to get a conviction.

I don't think formal status necessarily indicates a trial.  It didn't before.  But it can permit tapping of phones etc.  I agree there won't be a trial without "evidence" but that is a separate issue from suspect status IMO.

Of course it would lead to all investigative techniques available, phone taps, surveillance, etc...which are not allowed currently. Those can not occur while he has his letter releasing him from formal suspect status. That letter needs to be revoked or he would probably need to be formally charged with a specific crime(s) in order to be re-detained. I suspect the latter would have to occur

When Joran was under formal status, his evidence has to keep meeting a higher bar. When it did not, he was released under formal status and was free to travel in the Kingdom. When he got his letter, he was released from formal suspect status and free to move on with his life.

[Rob]

It's possible to have been 10 years or so.  I don't know for certain and don't have any way to readily test this. The trap was somewhat intact.  It's north side was in poor shape, with significant deterioration of it's northern panels.  The trap's doop is usually fastened to the outside of the trap.  It was laying inside the trap, as if pushed open. The contents sampled inside the trap were laying on top of the door.  The trap was found in 90 ft.

I wonder if it suffered damage from being dropped 90 feet or just wear and tear from years down on the ocean floor? Or possibly just discarded from a ship getting rid of it and was already in bad condition? That was a big heavy cage and in Aruba it would probably just sit around forever and never be used.IMO


If there was Human Remains found in that cage Bud Larson would be on the top of my list of people that it could be. He was last seen June 9, 1999

Willard Buddy Larson went missing after a public fight with the rental office at the Windsurf Village board shop,where he was to get the windsurfing equipment. They did not have the equipment he had reserved so he got into an altercation with them and left. He disappeared somewhere between the rental office and his hotel...

He never returned to the hotel, and the hotel filed a missing persons report that was ignored by the police till the family arrived and had to search on their own. When they rented out his room,the next group of tourists found his wallet in the couch.

Willard "Bud" Larson is on the top of my list too... or an unknown Aruban. Either way - I hope someone is found and return to their loved ones.

[Nut44x4]

bringing this over from 10 days ago...

As some of you know, I follow the site meter quite often here. I am going to go out on a limb and take a guess that IF Joran is in Germany, then he is in Kassel, which is located in Deutschland, I believe.

Are they viewing the cage? I have seen Kassel on the sitemeter often last year but they never viewed anything very long.

Not since I posted that 10 days ago (that I have observed), but several times before that. Not recently. It was just a guess...we don't get a lot on the meter from Germany...it stood out like a sore thumb.

[Destiny]

Hello Monkeys...Thanks for your feedback Klass!

Well...here goes...from my notes taken while on phone...

I spoke with a *source in Aruba* this afternoon...I told them I was calling regarding the report by CANAL 90, of Joran being arrested today...my *Aruban source* said they had received several calls about the same thing and were trying to get the info too..and were in the process of investigating it.
She then called the prosecutors office, and spoke with him...he told her that they didn't issue any orders for Joran to be arrested...but, that they were waiting for a return call from the embassy, to find out if Joran was arrested on some other charge than the NH case...

She told me that she called the AP in Amsterdam and is awaiting for a reply from them...she said she would email me...she asked for my email..I did not offer it to her...and tell me what is going on...she said it seems that this rumor, her words> "if it is a rumor" has some people stirred up...she said if she gets her reply before she leaves...she'll drop a quick email...or do it tomorrow...

[Observer]

Dj Diablo and Loco Stef party it up as usual.

[AZSunny]

Hello everyone. I came home to get some tools and I couldn't resist checking in and seeing whats up. I hope that is true about Joran, but I am with you in that I'll reserve my elation for later, when it is verified:)

I do have a favor to ask anyone who happens to be on at the same time as Kyle. I am curious what the circumstances were surrounding his leave from the boat he described during which the Dutch ship came close to the trap location. Was it scheduled, expected, normal, or out of the blue?

I was reading about Steve Croes and everyones investigation of him, and I noticed his age, and I wonder if he and Lorenzo are friends since they are the same age about. Anyway, I'll be back and keep up the good work. Everybody better behave because I heard Klaas has an internet electric keyboard shocker installed now, and if you don't mind, she can direct a electric charge from her machine to the offendings keyboard:) Don't make her use it:)

After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities". 

OE,  did that make sense to you?  How could they not have dive capabilites, if you are talking about scuba divers, etc.  They are everywhere there. Didn't they also participate in the dive on Dec. 30th?  It just gets stranger and stranger to me.

[Tamikosmom]

Hello everyone. I came home to get some tools and I couldn't resist checking in and seeing whats up. I hope that is true about Joran, but I am with you in that I'll reserve my elation for later, when it is verified:)

I do have a favor to ask anyone who happens to be on at the same time as Kyle. I am curious what the circumstances were surrounding his leave from the boat he described during which the Dutch ship came close to the trap location. Was it scheduled, expected, normal, or out of the blue?

I was reading about Steve Croes and everyones investigation of him, and I noticed his age, and I wonder if he and Lorenzo are friends since they are the same age about. Anyway, I'll be back and keep up the good work. Everybody better behave because I heard Klaas has an internet electric keyboard shocker installed now, and if you don't mind, she can direct a electric charge from her machine to the offendings keyboard:) Don't make her use it:)

After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities". 

Hi Kyle.  It's me ... Tamikosmom ... your worst nightmare.

I sincerely tried to spare you from my prying questions but ... I lack self discipline ... I am so nosy.

Were any members of the Persistence present when the Arubans took possessin of the contents of the cage/trap?  Were the contents itemized ... photos taken?  Was an authorized receipt obtained?

In other words ... was there an official chain of command that went from the Persistence to the Arubans or ... did the Persistence not have any control?

Janet

[Rob]

Art Harris from CNN emailed me back and he hasn't heard anything about Joran being arrested or re-detained.

[Nut44x4]

whoa.....steffi has lost some baggage.

[Observer]

Thanks Destiny! It doesn't appear that Joran was arrested

[Tamikosmom]

Hello everyone. I came home to get some tools and I couldn't resist checking in and seeing whats up. I hope that is true about Joran, but I am with you in that I'll reserve my elation for later, when it is verified:)

I do have a favor to ask anyone who happens to be on at the same time as Kyle. I am curious what the circumstances were surrounding his leave from the boat he described during which the Dutch ship came close to the trap location. Was it scheduled, expected, normal, or out of the blue?

I was reading about Steve Croes and everyones investigation of him, and I noticed his age, and I wonder if he and Lorenzo are friends since they are the same age about. Anyway, I'll be back and keep up the good work. Everybody better behave because I heard Klaas has an internet electric keyboard shocker installed now, and if you don't mind, she can direct a electric charge from her machine to the offendings keyboard:) Don't make her use it:)

After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities". 

OE,  did that make sense to you?  How could they not have dive capabilites, if you are talking about scuba divers, etc.  They are everywhere there. Didn't they also participate in the dive on Dec. 30th?  It just gets stranger and stranger to me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

The search for Natalee Holloway
It's the story you haven't heard: the tale of two parents who, even now, willgo anywhere -- and endure anything -- to find answers.

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

[Destiny]

Thanks Destiny! It doesn't appear that Joran was arrested

Thanks *******.

[AZSunny]

Thanks Tamikosmom, that is what I thought.  Why would they say such a thing?  Hell, why do they say so much of anything?  None of it makes sense. 

[ala_gunslinger]

Dj Diablo and Loco Stef party it up as usual.

Cocaine- It does a body good!

 

[Destiny]

Dj Diablo and Loco Stef party it up as usual.

Cocaine- It does a body good!

 

The new *Jenny Crank* spokesmodels...