Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4 - 4/11/08

[Tamikosmom]

I speculate that the civil suit brought against the VDS' by Beth Holloway will never go forward.  The continued manipulation of Dutch law that has denied Natalee Holloway justice for almost three years will be where it is at.

Think about ... manipulation of Dutch law has protected Paulus and Joran for three years ...
 
Also ... Holland is fully aware that snowball effect of "discovery" will be too far reaching.  Those at all levels of the Dutch/Aruban administrations who were involved in or aware of the coverup will be exposed for who they are ... corrupt.

Janet

+++++++++++

Beth Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
November 14, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: They are saying that even the AG is controlled by The Hague, so they're keeping Karen Janssen on ...

TWITTY: Well Greta, somebody is lobbying for Joran in the Hague in order to protect him ... it has to be.


Joe Scarborough
'Scarborough Country'
June 30, 2005

SCARBOROUGH: Friends, let me tell you something. This is an incestuous investigation. That‘s what Washington officials are saying. I have got to tell you, it‘s so obvious. You look at this. You have the Dutch government. And I was told—another source told me today, if you really want to know what‘s going on in Aruba, if you want to understand why we can‘t get to the bottom of anything, you know what? You can‘t search for answers in Aruba. You have got to follow it, follow that trail all the way over to the Netherlands, because that‘s where the real power of this investigation is.

And they are the ones that many in Washington, D.C., believe are covering up this investigation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8430791/

I hope  you're wrong.
I do not believe there is an organized cover up coming all the way from the Netherlands. There might be a few people from Holland being involved in a cover up but I do not believe the Dutch Government is covering this, it is nearly impossible.

Bram Moszkowicz is not just a layer.

Katrien ... I believe with all my heart that the Dutch and the Aruban are one in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice.  The Prosecutor ... the Attorney General and ... the judges are accountable to the Hague.

IMO

Janet

+++++++++++


Beth Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
November 9, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, the idea of the boycott and Governor Riley how did this come about?

TWITTY: You know, Greta, I was thinking about that. Aruba really has made us evolve to this position because, you know, what Aruba and The Hague have done to us is they've been dishonest from the beginning. If they would just have been forthcoming from the beginning to lead us to the proper authorities we would never be in this position right now.

VAN SUSTEREN: Can you identify one particular person, if we could sort of chisel away and find out who it is that we need to get to, to get information, so that we can sort of break this log jam who is that person?

TWITTY: Well, I think that's the $64 question and now we've got Aruba playing the blame game with The Hague. I mean I thought only the suspects were doing the blame game. It looks like Aruba and The Hague now are playing the blame game, Greta. It's hard to tell.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right and just so that the viewers, I understand what you're talking about, you got a letter in which it explained what the Arubans said to you that The Hague has been calling the shots, is that right, in the investigation?

TWITTY: Yes, they're saying, in the letter it states that the Aruban government has no authority to intervene in the investigation. Now then why have we been running around on the island submitting written and verbal requests for help from the governor, from the minister of justice, the prime minister? I mean the list is endless, Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is there, I mean like where is most of your frustration? Is it directed at a particular person? I mean I know that fundamentally that you want information about your daughter. Every parent wants that. But is there someone who you think is standing in the way more than another?

TWITTY: I don't think it's someone. I think it's something. I think it's the dishonesty that has been coming out of that island since May 31st and all we have wanted for them to be as honest with us and be forthcoming and tell us and lead us in the proper direction. That's all we've asked. That's all we've asked of them.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175101,00.html


Dave Holloway
Scarborough Country
November 7, 2005

Joe: Another strange twist in the Holloway story tonight. Aruba authorities have sent a letter to Alabama Governor Bob Riley that may make a new investigation even harder to move forward with.

The letter says in part:

“The chief prosecutor leading the investigation and the General Prosecutor are appointed by the Kingdom Government in the Hague. Because of separation of powers, the government of Aruba has no authority to intervene in the investigation.”

Dept. of Foreign Affairs, Nov. 4

Source: Dept of Foreign Affairs, Aruba

Joining us is Dave Holloway.

Joe: After all these months you and your family have been suffering, you find out that the Aruba authorities claim they have absolutely no say in this investigation?  Where do you go from here?

Dave: Well, that’s really unbelievable that they take the wash their hands approach.  We’re going to proceed on with The Hague, I guess. Also, our six page letter we were asked to provide to the Attorney General and we provided a carbon copy to the PM and Condoleezza Rice. We have not heard a response to that letter yet.

Joe: Dave, I’ve been asking the question for months on people down on the ground down in Aruba who has the power to run this investigation? Who has the power to hire? Who has the power to fire? Who has the power to subpoena? Nobody seems to know. This really does look like a banana republic down there. Anytime anyone gets cornered down there, they just point the finger across the Atlantic.

Dave: Well, that seems to be the case. We’ve been running around in circles for five months now. When we reduce it down to writing, they put it back in writing and it’s obvious they are pointing the finger somewhere else now.

Joe: So you are I guess at the end of the line as far as dealing with the Aruba authorities? Now you just have to take up with the Dutch government?

Dave: That’s what it appears to be. With the Dutch government and with the Attorney General. Mind you, the minister of justice had mentioned about a month ago that he felt like this would … just leave it alone and it will go away. So we know what his approach is now.

Joe: The new chief investigator, someone that you all looked forward to having on but now Dompig seems actually to be as big an obstacle as anything. He’s actually come out and attacked you all, hasn’t he?

Dave: Well, he’s attacked Beth in some sense by putting out on the island that she might be involved somehow in Natalee’s disappearance and making money off of it.  So it looks to me that he’s trying to incite anti Beth sentiment across the country of Aruba.

Joe: You know Dave we’re so frustrated, I know you all just have to be beyond yourselves right now. The question a lot of people are asking is what can we do?  Is this the time we go to Governor Riley and other people and talk about a possible boycott of Aruba? Is it that time yet or are you all going to play this out a little longer?

Dave: Well, the people of Aruba have elected their officials and their officials have spoken. We have elected officials and we’ll let our elected officials speak.

Joe: Will you make any requests of the elected officials to possibly move forward with a boycott of Aruba?

Dave: Well, again Joe, we elect our officials and they decide what is necessary for the people. Whatever the governor decides, that’s what we’ll do.

Joe: Okay thank you so much Dave Holloway. As always, know that our thoughts and prayers will be with you and your entire family. Friends it sounds like a show down is coming. Can you believe after 5 months of this family going through this private hell … this personal hell … and after all of this time it just keeps getting pushed around.

They are getting no answers. They get to the point where there is a new investigator they believe they are going to get answers on how their daughter disappeared and most likely died. Right as they push them right to the wall, the Aruba authorities say wait a second, we’ve got no authority. I tell you what; I’m not waiting for the government. We’re going to look into a boycott sometime soon.

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2005/11/07/dave-holloway-responds-to-letter-to-governor-riley-regarding-the-natalee-holloway-investigation/

[WhiskeyGirl]

they're still encouraging dangerous behavior on the hapless isle.  laughing, dancing, talking, and having fun on the beach is considered a legitimate reason for killing you and hiding your body. 
dennisintn

I'll have to disagree with you on the use of the word "killing" ~

May I suggest that some may make life changing and/or medical decisions based on physical symptoms without benefit of a medical degree/training?  Or perhaps the training to make these decisions is part of basic first aid learned in school? 

Maybe the hiding of the body is to encourage false hope in your family that you are still among the living? 

[Tamikosmom]

Aruba requesting Internal Affairs Minister Johan Remkes assistance in investigating the Natalee Holloway case is another conflict of interest.  On January 1, 2003 ... Johan Remkes endorsed the the appointment of Paulus van der Sloot to "deputy member of the common Court of Justice of the Netherlands antilles and Aruba".

I will go out on a limb and ... speculate that all the judges who gave favorable rulings for the suspects in the Natalee Holloway case were appointed by some "duputy member of the common Court of the Justice of the Netherlands antilles and Aruba".

Obviously ... the Dutch investigation was all a "dog and pony show".  Nothing the implied justice for Natalee Holloway ever evolved.  The lying declarations in the case file were never challenged.

Janet

++++++++++++++

ASSOCIATED PRESS

August 26, 2006
Aruba wants Dutch police to take over Natalee case

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — Aruban authorities want Dutch police to take over the investigation of the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway, who vanished on the Caribbean island more than one year ago, a local newspaper reported Friday.  Aruba's Justice Minister Rudy Croes sent a letter last week to Netherlands' Internal Affairs Minister Johan Remkes and to another Dutch official asking the Dutch police to handle the case, saying little progress had been made, the Solo di Pueblo newspaper reported.

If Dutch police take over the investigation, they will have access to all case files and their own office, according to the newspaper, which didn't cite its source. Remkes will visit the Dutch Caribbean islands, including Aruba, next week, authorities said in the Netherlands.

Telephone calls placed to Croes' office for comment Friday went unanswered.

Holloway vanished on May 30, 2005, the last night of a high school graduation trip to Aruba. Then 18, the native of Mountain Brook was last seen leaving a bar with three young men.

Authorities have arrested eight people in connection with her disappearance and then released them for lack of evidence.

Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210525,00.html
 
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/060826/aruba.shtml

[Tamikosmom]

The Prosecutor and the Attorney General are appointed by the Hague.  Think about it ... Paulus van der Sloot worked for the Prosecutor's Office in Aruba for EIGHT YEARS.  The implication is that relationships/connections that extend to the Hague would have been were it was at.  I would not be surprised if it was the "powers in the Hague" that appointed Paulus' to his position within the Prosecutor's Office in Aruba.

The conflicts of interest in the Natalee Holloway case are far reaching.  The Hague is not an innocent bystander to the injustices bestowed up an eighteen year old American citizen and ... her long suffering family.

Considering ... the conflicts of interest ... the Hague had the ability to appoint an independent Prosecutor as well as Judges from an international agency but ... 

IMO

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++


Paulus van der Sloot
NOVA (Twan Huys)
June 28, 2005

JUDICIARY

Reporter (Twan Huys): Which function do you have here at the island? Because many stories go around about that. What is your function?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: I am a replacing member of the joint court of justice of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba [1] and I am appointed for a period of three years, from January the first, 2003, until January the first, 2006.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): So, you are replacement judge?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.


PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE

Reporter (Twan Huys): Do you know the people very well, for example, the people here from the public prosecutors' office that ordered your detention?

Paulus van der Sloot: Yes, for sure, because, before that, I have worked for eight years as chief of the cabinet of the prosecutor general [2].

Reporter (Twan Huys): So, you also know the current prosecutor general?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Mrs. Croes.
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.


ARUBAN LAW ENFORCEMENT

Reporter (Twan Huys): Yes, and what does that mean when your colleagues stop by to arrest you?

Paulus van der Sloot: That gives a feeling of absurdity. It is indeed almost unimaginable that by someone you actually know very well, where you worked together with for a long time, that that one comes to tell you that you are suspected of complicity to murder.

Reporter (Twan Huys): Who was that in your case?

Paulus van der Sloot: That was, in this case, that was the leader of the team of police commissioners.
 
Reporter (Twan Huys): Jan van der Straaten.

Paulus van der Sloot: That was Jan van der Straaten, yes.

Reporter (Twan Huys): And you know each other very well?
 
Paulus van der Sloot: Yes.

Translation Credit: Dugo - Riehl Worldview


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html

[sb]

Correct on Beth's part not to make this a "wrongful death" situation, but to go for damages for the "shockschade" the VDS family has caused her. I suspect that that term is analogous to what we call "pain-and-suffering" due to Joran's lies and the various attempts to hide the truth by PVDS.

It MIGHT work... at least accomplish a discovery in the court system down there...

I reiterate again, though, that this thing goes higher than that island's tinpot government, that the fine hand of the Hague is behind all this.

I know we are very slow right now (good for archiving posts, though ) but we all need to keep hanging in there. Everyone doin' OK?

[Kermit]

I agree Sharon. It ain't about the money, it's about the Discovery. Just a short list I'd like to see:

1- Joran's statements through June 9th. (If they're not missing.)

1B- If they are missing I'd like to see Jannsen, Straten and Jacobs subpoened and asked why?

1C- Follow-up on ALE questioning Beth and Dave about seizures.

2- Kalpoes statements versus Joran's statements on the security guards. Jannsen said Joran's was irrevelent.

3- All cell phone and internet correspondence of Joran, Paulus, Kalpoes, Croes, Lorenzo and Gottenbos.

4- All communications records between Paulus and Van der Straten plus the judges.

5- Any bank transactions by Paulus immediately following the disappearance.

6- All police records pertaining to the arrest of the guards.

7- Testimony from Jannsen and Van der Straten pertaining to the arrest of the guards and non-arrest of the perps.

8- All of Joran's legal bills and who has paid for them.


FEEL FREE TO ADD!

Morning Dayhiker 

+ ask vander straaten about his interesting quotes (paraphrased) "I know about the investigation and you don't" "if I told you about the dogs it would give an indication of the direction of the case"

+ ask Staanley why he felt that the body of Natalee was found but not reported as a 'favor' to Paulus

+ who in the heck was in holland and who was in Aruba the night Natalee was taken by aliens 

+ did paulus really go to miami while his son was in prison (or the days leading up to it) and if so, why

+ what size are Joran' s feet? 


And the list goes on..........the list goes on.........

Great additions Sharon. I think if Van der Straten knew he was being investigated and could face criminal charges for purposely botching the investigation he would spill his guts. It seems like he was trying to all along, almost like an unwilling participant but a participant nonetheless. Who was Jan taking orders from?

Remember he said that the case should have been solved in the first week but "some people did not wish to cooperate." I doubt he was talking about the perps, you couldn't expect them to cooperate, so was he talking about higher up?

Jan and Karin both knew about the "seizure" statements from Joran. That puts both of them in the corruption spotlight.[/size]

THAT IS THE STATEMENT OF THE YEAR DAYHIKER.

Why didn't karin janseen take that information to the judge and put those criminals on trial!

[Destiny]

The Prosecutor and the Attorney General are appointed by the Hague.  Think about it ... Paulus van der Sloot worked for the Prosecutor's Office in Aruba for EIGHT YEARS.  The implication is that relationships/connections that extend to the Hague would have been were it was at.  I would not be surprised if it was the "powers in the Hague" that appointed Paulus' to his position within the Prosecutor's Office in Aruba.

The conflicts of interest in the Natalee Holloway case are far reaching.  The Hague is not an innocent bystander to the injustices bestowed up an eighteen year old American citizen and ... her long suffering family.

Considering ... the conflicts of interest ... the Hague had the ability to appoint an independent Prosecutor as well as Judges from an international agency but ... 

IMO

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++

****Snippage****

I agree with you Janet on Paulus being appointed by the Hague...I also *feel* that Moma Sloot had a lot to do with that...I'm of the persuasion that Mama Sloot has pulled a lot of strings to get Paulus what *SHE* wanted.

I also think that the *powers in the Hague* recognized what a basket case Paulus was...and gave him Aruba...to appease the Mama Sloot...you know how the old Southern saying goes....*if Mama ain't happy...ain't no one happy*...

I'm going to try to focus a little more of my time on the Anita/Hague connection...that's where my *gut* is leading me...

Destiny

[texasmom]

I think Mr. Kermit has read my thoughts!  I see him here.  I have been looking for AHATA officer listings for 2004 and 2005, and I thought I remembered Mr. Kermit posting something like that long ago......  Do I remember correctly?  Or would someone else have that information for me to compare?  Thanks in advance!

Hi everyone!   

[Destiny]

I think Mr. Kermit has read my thoughts!  I see him here.  I have been looking for AHATA officer listings for 2004 and 2005, and I thought I remembered Mr. Kermit posting something like that long ago......  Do I remember correctly?  Or would someone else have that information for me to compare?  Thanks in advance!

Hi everyone!   

Hi backacha!

[WhiskeyGirl]

3- All cell phone and internet correspondence of Joran, Paulus, Kalpoes, Croes, Lorenzo and Gottenbos.

I would include all the family phones of the above, especially the Gottenbos.  I would also include Guido and his family, as well as the family of GVC. 

How much internet traffic is there to the"BangBus" site from Aruba?  From the land/cell phones of interest?

How much cell phone traffic is there in the middle of the night from cell towers near the lighthouse?  Beach?  Payphone?

[Destiny]

I Pray this doesn't offend anyone...but I just wanted to share it....I thought it was funny...

First ever *Male* blond joke...


An Irishman, a Mexican and a Blonde Guy were doing construction work on scaffolding on the 20th floor of a building.

They were eating lunch and the Irishman said, "Corned beef and cabbage!
If I get corned beef and cabbage one more time for lunch, I'm going to jump off this building."

The Mexican opened his lunch box and exclaimed, "Burritos again! If I get burritos one more time I'm going to jump off, too."

The blonde man opened his lunch and said, " Bologna again! If I get a bologna sandwich one more time, I'm jumping too."

The next day, the Irishman opened his lunch box, saw corned beef and cabbage, and jumped to his death.

The Mexican opened his lunch, saw a burrito, and jumped, too.

The blonde guy opened his lunch, saw the bologna and jumped to his death as well.

At the funeral, the Irishman's wife was weeping.She said, "If I'd known how really tired he was of corned beef and cabbage, I never would have given it to him again!"

The Mexican man's wife also wept and said, "I could have given him tacos or enchiladas! I didn't realize he hated burritos so much."

Everyone turned and stared at the blonde man's wife. The blonde's wife said,...


"Don't look at me. He makes his own lunch ."

[Tamikosmom]

I cannot contend why Hans Mos did not present Joran van der Sloot's yet to be revealed May 31, 2005 witness statement to the three panel judge who ruled that there was insufficient supporting evidence to support Joran's words on the video recording.  Obviously ... this must be Joran's declaration regarding Natalee "shaking".

Janet

+++++++++


February 15, 2008
Court of Appeal upholds lower judge’s decision not to detain J.v.d.S.
J.v.d.S remains prime suspect
Judicial investigation continues

The Court of Appeal announced by the end of yesterday, February 14th, 2008, its decision to uphold the refusal by the investigating judge to order pre-trial detention of J.v.d.S. in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. The Office of the Public Prosecutor had requested such an order after the “Peter R de Vries-tapes” had been received by the Office and had been evaluated. Last week the Office appealed the ruling of refusal by the judge.

The reasons underlying the Court’s decision are the following. The Court has seen the visual materials, has listened to the audio materials and has inspected the verbatim reports. Based on that, the Court is of the opinion that there is a lack of sufficient facts and circumstances substantiating serious grounds for the suspicion of the suspect’s involvement in the crimes for which he is being held responsible by the prosecution. The Court will generally be a bit more hesitant when it has to decide on a new request for pre-trial detention of a suspect, when that same suspect has been detained repeatedly before and there has been a considerable lapse of time.

J.v.d.S. has given extensive and detailed statements in Patrick van der Eem’s car, the undercover citizen who worked for Peter R. de Vries, on what happened during the night of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Nevertheless the Court sees various reasons not to accept the serious grounds of suspicion which are statutorily required for pre-trial detention. One of them is the history of contradictory statements by J.v.d.S., which were belied repeatedly by objective findings.

At this moment those parts of the statements made in Van der Eem’s car which contain new elements are not being underpinned by objective findings. Considering the possibility of a serious personality disorder – as voiced by the prosecution – combined with a personal history of untrue statements and remarks, which even according to the suspect himself are frequently false, the Court of Appeal has reasons for doubt regarding the incriminating character of the “car-statements.”

On the pre-trial detention issue the Code of criminal procedure does not provide for further appeals. The effect of the Court decision is that J.v.d.S. cannot be (re)arrested. The investigation of the Natalee Holloway case continues. J.v.d.S. is again the prime suspect.

At the end of the investigation the Office of the Public Prosecution will decide whether to charge or not.


John Kelly
On the Record w/ Greta
February 20, 2008

KELLY:  Let me throw one more thing in on that Greta.  On May 31st, Joran was the first person interviewed by Jacobs when he's taking statements. Every police report subsequent to that, the statements made by Deepak, made by Satish, made by Beth that day, we have them all, there is no statement from Joran until June 9th.
Unofficial Transcript - Heli (RU)

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2622.msg353635;topicseen#msg353635

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Twi7-8OqS4


Beth Holloway
DATELINE
February 23, 2008

Beth Holloway: The facts are within 48 hours of Natalee's disappearance, a lead detective asked me if she had a history of epilepsy or seizures. Two and a half years later, the main suspect himself, admits that Natalee -- he felt as if she suffered an epilepsy or seizure. And he even indicates how she's shaking. So, if we look at just that one-- just that one piece, that's one thread out of a lot. Then, I have to say yes, there definitely was some collusion and corruption going on in the early days of Natalee's disappearance. Absolutely.
 
However, according to the prosecutor's office it's standard procedure to ask if a missing person might have a seizure disorder.

Police and prosecution officials declined on-camera interviews, but have consistently denied that there was any corruption, collusion or mishandling of the investigation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/6/


Joran van der Sloot
ABC NEWS
February 3, 2008

In one taped conversation, van der Sloot told van der Eem that Holloway visibly convulsed "like a movie," that she was shaking "a lot."
 
"Did you try CPR on her?" asked van der Eem.
 
"Of course, I tried everything," van der Sloot said. "I tried to shake her. I was shaking the bitch. I was like, 'What is wrong with you man?' I almost wanted to cry. Why does this s*** have to happen to me?"

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4222253&page

[Lala'sMom]

If Joran's May 31 witness statement was seen lying on a desk in pieces how can you produce what has already been int he trash for 3 years? 

[Altruist]

they're still encouraging dangerous behavior on the hapless isle.  laughing, dancing, talking, and having fun on the beach is considered a legitimate reason for killing you and hiding your body. 
dennisintn

I'll have to disagree with you on the use of the word "killing" ~

May I suggest that some may make life changing and/or medical decisions based on physical symptoms without benefit of a medical degree/training?  Or perhaps the training to make these decisions is part of basic first aid learned in school? 

Maybe the hiding of the body is to encourage false hope in your family that you are still among the living? 

I will suggest that ANYBODY who took such actions & ANYBODY that participated with it's continuance HAS A SICK & TWISTED VALUE SYSTEM.  The enabling of such inappropriate behavior is barbaric & of extreme negative effect on any community & all of it's members especially youth.  In this case it has been multiplied as the story has global ramnifications.

When coverup became the modus operandi, accidental became void to any decent thinking human being, imo.  The presumption of accidental is void in full unless it physically can indeed be established leaving only intentional to be dealt with judicially & I suggest that no physical means of ability to justify the actions taken were available & it is only the attempt to allow an out to the guilty to attempt in any way to justify such vile actions because they feel entitled, that their offspring should be exempt from moral behavior,  instead of the remorse that would be expected & HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED ONE IOTA in this horrible travesty that has been demonstrated.

If anybody in my family or friends was ever involved in this type of situation & it became known to myself my first action would be to TURN THEM IN, no hesitation & will admit that I judge others in this regard to be of inferior humanity.  The cruelty involved with treating any family with such disregard is inhumane & those that participate are entitled to be separated from society FOR A GOOD LONG TIME.  To do otherwise sends a very dangerous message of "no body, no crime" which should not be left to be repeated over & over & over again.  This kind of damage is not acceptable to a decent society, that we have learned in the USA & are attempting to correct through our pursuit of COLD CASES, a decent society protects its people IT DOESN'T LEAVE AVAILABLE TO IT'S CRIMINALS A LOOPHOLE that injures entire families & communities for lifetimes & beyond.

[WhiskeyGirl]

If Joran's May 31 witness statement was seen lying on a desk in pieces how can you produce what has already been int he trash for 3 years? 

This is a very good question.  Why did the prosecutor refuse to give the lawyer for the two security guards the Dutch boy's statement?  IIRC, it was because his statement was not relevant to the case of her clients. 

Why was that?  What did the prosecutor do with this statement?  Who would likely receive copies of the statements?  Are they produced and stored on some kind of wordprocess/document system?

Who was the person who questioned him?  Who helped?  Where are the original notes?  IIRC, the PV is not a transcript, it is more of a summary produced by law enforcement.  Did the person putting the PV together take notes?  Perhaps they save the notes?  Or, they remember?  Were they ever questioned?  Who typed them up?

Who was on the distribution list for the statements?

I was looking for the quote from the security guys lawyers and found this -

GRACE: Let`s go to the Twitty family attorney, Helen Lejuez. Welcome, Helen. Now, you`re a former prosecutor in Aruba. Helen, tell me, how do you get wiretaps there in Aruba? Is it pursuant to warrant? And also, what sort of new evidence, Helen, do you think prosecutors are referring to?

HELEN LEJUEZ, TWITTY FAMILY ATTORNEY: I don`t think this has to do with a lot of wiretapping. I do believe it has to do with bringing forth the new evidence. It has to do with the case approaching the 60 days and that they are adding new evidence so they can have the case going.

GRACE: OK, what new evidence, Helen?

LEJUEZ: The rape case.

GRACE: OK. You said new evidence. What "new evidence" regarding Natalee Holloway do you think prosecutors have?

LEJUEZ: Right now, they`re talking about a gang rape. So when we talk about a gang rape, we talk about a gang. The gang consisted of three of them. Right?

GRACE: Right.

LEJUEZ: Even though -- even though maybe it`s not out that the other suspect that`s in jail right now will be added to the gang, he is part of the gang.

GRACE: OK, let me go quickly back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Jossy, our sources say that we do believe wiretaps were involved. Jossy, are you hearing the same information?

MANSUR: About wiretapping?

GRACE: Yes.

MANSUR: No. No, I haven`t.

GRACE: Well, then, what do you that is the new evidence?

MANSUR: I just said it, and I`ll explain it again. From what I understand from the sources that we have at the newspaper, the police went back to square one. They know they have a tough case to prove at this point, a murder, first degree or whatever. Then they went back. They went to square one. They reviewed everything that was on the table, and then they decided that with the evidence they already have, that it`s based on the admissions that all three of them made to the police during those days of interrogation, that they have a sufficiently strong case to re-arrest them and take them to court on charges of sexual assault.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/26/ng.01.html

Where are all these things?  Are their copies of original PVs?  Original recordings of questioning that could be reviewed?  A review of the van conversation? 

[texasmom]

  Destiny!

[Rob]

I made one more



1 VAN ROLLED OVER YESTERDAY - TAKELWAGEN - 24 ORA (4-6-2008)

2 VAN AT TIERRA DEL SOL - FOUND BY MANY

3 VAN - UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FOUND BY DEBRA / ??? AND A MATCH FOR MAKE AND MODEL FOR VAN #2 - NOT NECESSARILY THE MISSING VAN

4 VAN IN VIDEO WITH PETER DE VRIES WHILE HE WAS ON ARUBA AND IT WAS ROLLING BY - FOUND BE ME - NOT NECESSARILY MISSING VAN

5 REFERENCE VAN FOUND BY ANONYMOUS AND FORWARDED TO EASYWRITER AND THEN FORWARDED TO ME - NOT NECESSARILY MISSING VAN

6 VAN AT DEATH OF AMERICAN TOURIST AT MILL RESORT - 24 ORA - MATCH FOR VAN #5 - FOUND BY ME - POSSIBLE MISSING VAN

7 VAN ON SIDE OF MARRIOTT - FOUND BY CARPE NOCTEM - NOT SURE WHICH VAN THIS MATCHES

*Older ALE van most likely replaced with newer model seen at Mill Resort*

All my opinion.

[Tamikosmom]

If Joran's May 31 witness statement was seen lying on a desk in pieces how can you produce what has already been int he trash for 3 years? 

Exactly!

Lala'sMom ... I was just being the Devil's advocate.

However ... in February, 2008 ... if Jug and Beth's contentions were that Dennis Jacobs had interrogated them both on June 1, 2005 in regards to "seizures" and ... Joran was claiming in the Devries' video recording that Natalee was "shaking" ... I would assume that the Judges who were ruling whether or not to detain Joran ... would have requested Joran's May 31, 2005 witness statement.

I assume that Hans Mos would have presented Joran's signedJune 9, 2005 suspect statement to the three judge panel ... the statement where he makes reference to his May 31, 2005 interrogation.

I assume that Hans Mos would have presented Paulus' June 23, 2005 suspect statement to the three judge panel ... the statement where he declare that he picked up Joran from school and drove him to the Bubali Police Station for interrogation.

Janet

++++++++++++

Beth Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 14, 2005

TWITTY: Well, Rita, like I said, we‘ve been worried as early as June 1 when we saw torn statements at a police station. We‘ve had falsified documents. I mean, we‘ve seen key elements omitted from uniformed police officers‘ statements. We‘ve had a D.E.A. whose statement was never taken.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9354188/


Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE
Page 76

The detective takes a seat at his desk and sorts through some papers before getting ready to type at his computer keyboard.  It's quiet.  I am very cold, waiting for him to begin.  As I stare at the torn documents on the table, the words Joran van der Sloot jump right off one of the ripped pager at me and pierce my eyes.  It's Joran's witness statement, torn up, lying in plain view.   So he has been here.  He has given his statement.  It has been destroyed for some reason.  Did he change his mind?   Can you even do that?  Did someone come along and decide it wasn't in Joran's best interest to go on record about what happened to Natalee?  I wonder if the father, Paulus, has been here.  It's disarming.  And I have so many questions about this pile of torn papers.  But I don't know enough about law -- certainly not Dutch law -- to underatand what it might mean to destroy a witness statement.


Joran van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 9, 2005

May 31, 2005

Then my father explained to Bob that I had been the last person that was seen with the girl and that I had to go and make a statement to the police.  At approximately 11.15 am my father and me left the school grounds and we went to the police station in Bubali.

<snipped>

At approximately 16.00 pm, we were finished at the police station in Bubali.


Paulus Van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

May 31, 2005

The mother of the girl by that time had already left. At least I did not see her anymore. We were dropped off home by the officers. It was starting to get light.

<snipped>
 
We then departed for the police station in Bubali where we
arrived at approximately 11.00 hours. Jacobs and Kelly took down Joran's statement.

At approximately 14.00 hours Joran signed his statement ...

++++++++

[WhiskeyGirl]

they're still encouraging dangerous behavior on the hapless isle.  laughing, dancing, talking, and having fun on the beach is considered a legitimate reason for killing you and hiding your body. 
dennisintn

I'll have to disagree with you on the use of the word "killing" ~

May I suggest that some may make life changing and/or medical decisions based on physical symptoms without benefit of a medical degree/training?  Or perhaps the training to make these decisions is part of basic first aid learned in school? 

Maybe the hiding of the body is to encourage false hope in your family that you are still among the living? 

I will suggest that ANYBODY who took such actions & ANYBODY that participated with it's continuance HAS A SICK & TWISTED VALUE SYSTEM.  The enabling of such inappropriate behavior is barbaric & of extreme negative effect on any community & all of it's members especially youth.  In this case it has been multiplied as the story has global ramnifications.

When coverup became the modus operandi, accidental became void to any decent thinking human being, imo.  The presumption of accidental is void in full unless it physically can indeed be established leaving only intentional to be dealt with judicially & I suggest that no physical means of ability to justify the actions taken were available & it is only the attempt to allow an out to the guilty to attempt in any way to justify such vile actions because they feel entitled, that their offspring should be exempt from moral behavior,  instead of the remorse that would be expected & HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED ONE IOTA in this horrible travesty that has been demonstrated.

If anybody in my family or friends was ever involved in this type of situation & it became known to myself my first action would be to TURN THEM IN, no hesitation & will admit that I judge others in this regard to be of inferior humanity.  The cruelty involved with treating any family with such disregard is inhumane & those that participate are entitled to be separated from society FOR A GOOD LONG TIME.  To do otherwise sends a very dangerous message of "no body, no crime" which should not be left to be repeated over & over & over again.  This kind of damage is not acceptable to a decent society, that we have learned in the USA & are attempting to correct through our pursuit of COLD CASES, a decent society protects its people IT DOESN'T LEAVE AVAILABLE TO IT'S CRIMINALS A LOOPHOLE that injures entire families & communities for lifetimes & beyond.

I believe there should be a balance between the rights of victims and the rights of criminals.  I believe that criminals learn to manipulate the system (any system) over time to their benefit, and to the detriment of victims.  mo

I believe that over time, re-balancing is necessary.

What is the value of a criminal justice system that is incapable of appropriately addressing the criminal element that exists in any society?

What happens when a society fails to acknowledge conflicting interests that may exist in their criminal justice system?

What happens when crime ceases to exist in the eyes of the judicial system?

[Lala'sMom]

Under Dutch civil law what is there to prevent a person from simply replying they don't remember or don't know?  What is there to stop all the Sloots from having major memory loss at the opportune moment?  This would prevent any hope of discovery if they refuse to cooperate...not that they have ever done so before.