Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4 - 4/11/08

[WhiskeyGirl]

Under Dutch civil law what is there to prevent a person from simply replying they don't remember or don't know?  What is there to stop all the Sloots from having major memory loss at the opportune moment?  This would prevent any hope of discovery if they refuse to cooperate...not that they have ever done so before.

That is a serious questions.  IIRC, Joran verified that his father doesn't remember what clothing he may have worn the day before.  There was something else as well.  Don't remember where it was in the transcripts, but it was the reason Joran had given for their statements not matching.  Dad's memory wasn't so good.  imo

[San]

Wouldn't they have to produce videos of their interrogations.  By law Aruba was suppose to video the interrogations.  Where are they?

[Tamikosmom]

Under Dutch civil law what is there to prevent a person from simply replying they don't remember or don't know?  What is there to stop all the Sloots from having major memory loss at the opportune moment?  This would prevent any hope of discovery if they refuse to cooperate...not that they have ever done so before.

That is a serious questions.  IIRC, Joran verified that his father doesn't remember what clothing he may have worn the day before.  There was something else as well.  Don't remember where it was in the transcripts, but it was the reason Joran had given for their statements not matching.  Dad's memory wasn't so good.  imo

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=193.0

From BFN

PROCES – VERBAAL

We, Ghrizanti Anuar TROMP and Marcelino Antonio Gregory RAS respectively officer and officer first class with the Korps Politie Aruba and both attached to the Robbery Project Team (Atraco Team) declare the following.

On June 24th 2005, at approximately 10.00 hours, we, the reporting officers, went to the correctional facility Aruba to pick up suspect "Joran Andreas Petrus van der SLOOT" to be questioned.

There we, the reporting officers, were informed by the watch-commander on duty of the KIA that the suspect J.A.P. van der SLOOT refused to go with us.

The suspect J.A.P. van der SLOOT talked to us subsequently, and informed us that he did not want to go with us to the police station in Oranjestad to make a statement.

The suspect J.A.P. van der SLOOT gave us as a reason:

- he would only go with us, the reporting officers if is father was released;

- that his mother and his lawyer had advised him on behalf of his father to not make any more statements and to invoke his right to not make statements;

- that he would receive a message from his father's lawyer when he should make statements;

- that according to his lawyer, if he would stop making statements, his father would be released in two days;

- that he listens to his families advise;

- that the lawyers "Antonio CARLO" and "OOMEN" are good friends of his father

- that these two lawyers out of friendship with is father would defend them

- that he know that if he would make a statement he could bring his father into trouble

- that his father suffers from bad memory and that because of that his and his fathers statements would not correspond

- that his father even can't remember what kind of clothes he himself wore the day before

- that his lawyer had said that the police arrested his father because according to the police his father had picked him up in the late night hours of May 30th 2005 at McDonalds

- that he wished the police would leave his friends and family alone/stop bothering his family and friends

- that he would only answer new questions asked by investigators

- that his lawyer had advised him only to make statements in his presence

- that his lawyer had started a lawsuit so that he would only make a statement with the lawyer present

- that he wouldn't come with us today because his mother would be visiting him at 14.00 hours that day

- that if he gets a visit from his mother he would discuss making another statement with her

- that only if his father, by way of his lawyer would say he should make a statement he would do so

- that he was waiting for the statement of his father and after that make another statement.

Of this, we, the reporting officers, on our oath of office, have made this proces-verbaal, closed and signed in Oranjestad on June 24th 2005.

The reporting officers,

S.A. TROMP M.A.G. RAS


DUTCH:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a306/klaasend/SM%20Property/JV0624A-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a306/klaasend/SM%20Property/JV0624A-2.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a306/klaasend/SM%20Property/JV0624A-3.jpg

[WhiskeyGirl]

All we need to end the night is a review of the "I Can't Remember" video by Klass...

 

[klaasend]

All we need to end the night is a review of the "I Can't Remember" video by Klass...

 

You mean this one?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SiVKwLpsza0&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/SiVKwLpsza0&amp;hl=en</a>

[WhiskeyGirl]

Wouldn't they have to produce videos of their interrogations.  By law Aruba was suppose to video the interrogations.  Where are they?

IIRC, from RWV in the early days, there was a poster (or more than one) that claimed that the videos/recording equipment was installed just for this case.  Prior to that, no recordings were made of interrogations. 

This was to ensure that JVDS was not mistreated.  I think there were a number of reasons.  To protect him from ALE that may not like him (or any other suspect).  To protect the judicial process, to show that he was not being coerced, etc.  To prevent any evidence obtained from being thrown out.

It was interesting at the time, because the poster viewed this as a kind of favoritism.  Other individuals were not given this consideration.  This was considered a special treatment, installed just for JVDS.

I believe, from memory, that KJ made some statement at Hasibokos (now gone) that suggested it was to protect the integrity of the investigation.

I believe somewhere (Joran's book?) that he said his legal team/family got access to all the recordings sometime that summer.  Was everything the Kalpoes said relevant to his case?  Other witnesses and suspects?

Why weren't JVDS statements relevant to the case of the two security guards?

[klaasend]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/hUZRVV1klek&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/hUZRVV1klek&amp;hl=en</a>

[WhiskeyGirl]

I saved a bit from Hasibokos before the restructuring -

Latest developments in The Netherlands (Thursday) Hasibokos.com followed NOVA again on Wednesday as they interviewed chief prosecutor Karin Janssen. She commented on the interview that Anita and Paul van der Sloot gave the day before. In Tuesday’s interview  Anita van der Sloot told the reporter that Joran has been facing (mentally) brutal interrogation sessions. She told NOVA that , as has already been reported, they called Joran a murderer and threaten to physically hurt him (if only the law permitted that.). Anita also said that the picture of Natalee had been shoved in Joran’s face a few times  With regard to this declaration Janssen told the reporter that the interrogations are conducted lawfully. She said that all interrogations are being recorded so, if it comes to it, in court the judge can see for himself how all interrogations have been conducted. She added that naturally they try to put as much pressure as possible on suspects but it is all within limits of the law.  She also admitted that pictures of  Natalee were shown to the suspects, but said that it was normal for pictures to be used/shown during the interrogation process. In yesterday’s interview Paul van der Sloot said that he did not instruct the young suspects not to talk, but explained the judicial procedure to them so that they would know what to expect and not panic. With regard to this statement Janssen said that through their investigation they learned that Paul van der Sloot told the boys a few days after the disappearance of  Natalee (not to worry because) there is no crime without a body and consequently there will be no case. So Paul allegedly said something like : “No body, no crime”, and  Janssen is certain that this has affected the investigation drastically and caused the suspects to keep their mouths sealed because they know that as long as nothing is found they can’t be blamed for anything. Finally she said that they are at a crucial point in the investigation and hope for a breakthrough soon. Click here to see the Dutch interview.

http://www.hasibokos.com/hbknews/default.asp?view=day&blogDate=6/11/2005

[Observer]

Hello All   

My trip is complete and thanks for all the warm wishes..It is greatly appreciated as I made it safely and even got my internet hooked up the first day in my new house on a sunday!!

Could someone update me on anything new? TIA

[WhiskeyGirl]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/hUZRVV1klek&amp;hl=en" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/hUZRVV1klek&amp;hl=en</a>

Thanks, I don't remember seeing this one.

I was thinking of an older one, where PVDS is the subject of "I can't remember".

[WhiskeyGirl]

There was another nugget in that old Hasibokos.com site -

Hasibokos.com has also learned that the Aruban justice minister, Rudy Croes, requested the Dutch government to get involved  and defend the Aruban authorities who are conducting the case. According to Croes since the disappearance of Natelee Holloway, Aruba is being portrayed as a criminal paradise with a useless judicial system by the media. As Croes sees it, the reputation of both Aruba and The Netherlands are at stake here and he fears that this would have a negative long term effect on the Aruban tourism development.

[private eye]

they're still encouraging dangerous behavior on the hapless isle.  laughing, dancing, talking, and having fun on the beach is considered a legitimate reason for killing you and hiding your body. 
dennisintn

I'll have to disagree with you on the use of the word "killing" ~

May I suggest that some may make life changing and/or medical decisions based on physical symptoms without benefit of a medical degree/training?  Or perhaps the training to make these decisions is part of basic first aid learned in school? 

Maybe the hiding of the body is to encourage false hope in your family that you are still among the living? 

I believe in calling a spade a spade, and Aruba's callous disregard of human life as it relates the to lives of the power's to be cordones killing as an insignificant elimination of a problem, and is so prevalent as to make the hitting of a policeman a minor event, the hanging of an individual who is found with their hand in their pocket a reportable event that isn't questioned, and the confession of an individual claiming to have  shook the bitch as his means of verifying her alive or dead and then dumping her in the ocean knowing that she might be alive not a crime. They kill with impunity and without remorse. People other than the powers to be are insignificant inanimate objects. One day, their is going to be a group of tourist who arrive on that island, and demonstrate to these very people, just how precious life is, by bringing the practice home to roost, as the Rev. Anderson would say. Life will become precious if it is theirs is my bet.

Killing is a harsh word, one Aruba likes to stay away from, but withholding treatment is not only killing but is torture.

[texasmom]

Hello All   

My trip is complete and thanks for all the warm wishes..It is greatly appreciated as I made it safely and even got my internet hooked up the first day in my new house on a sunday!!

Could someone update me on anything new? TIA

 
Glad you're back and that the move went well!  Joran's "Daury" may be in some trouble in the US, DEA investigation going on.  Not a lot of details yet.

[klaasend]

Hello All   

My trip is complete and thanks for all the warm wishes..It is greatly appreciated as I made it safely and even got my internet hooked up the first day in my new house on a sunday!!

Could someone update me on anything new? TIA

*******!  Hi..good to see you!  Have you started the new job yet?

Nothing new except the civil case in the NL.  The media in the US still hasn't picked up on it.  Patrick has an update on his website:

http://patrickvandereem.nl/

[klaasend]

Hi Private Eye, good to see you too!

[Observer]

Hello All   

My trip is complete and thanks for all the warm wishes..It is greatly appreciated as I made it safely and even got my internet hooked up the first day in my new house on a sunday!!

Could someone update me on anything new? TIA

 
Glad you're back and that the move went well!  Joran's "Daury" may be in some trouble in the US, DEA investigation going on.  Not a lot of details yet.

  Hi TM!! Hmmmm..I wonder who this Daury is? Thanks! 

[WhiskeyGirl]

Here are a few interesting things I saved as well ~

UPDATE 30:The latest updates in the Natalee Holloway case concerns mostly reports on the van der Sloot family. The media has been reporting widely that Paul van der Sloot has been questioned by police on Saturday and Sunday. Police superintendent Jan van der Straaten affirmed that van der Sloot was purely questioned as a witness, no more or no less, but the fact remains that Paul van der Sloot has also been suspended from his duties as judge-in-training by the court of the Dutch Antilles and Aruba. Also according to a recent article in AD, The mother of  Joran van der Sloot, Anita, stated that the intention was to send Joran to the United States so he could continue with his studies there. So if this case had not taken place, Joran would have been in the United States right now arranging his personal affairs to establish himself there for the next few years. So this case is affecting the van der Sloot family as a whole, but the fact that Joran has not collaborated truthfully until now (considering the fact that he and the brothers Kalpoe have been changing there testimonies numerous times) is certainly not helping. The latest story Hasibokos.com got from Joran is what the ex-suspect Abraham Jones told his attorney after he had spoken to van der Sloot who was in cel next to him (Update 21). According to Abraham Jones, Joran said that he caught a ride home with the Kapoe brothers when he left C‘NC and that Natalee was in the car a that time. On the other hand,  in recent interview conducted by FoxNews this weekend with students who were part of the group that went to Aruba, they indicated that Joran was seen dancing with Natalee in C’NC and was consequently also seen leaving with him.  The students also indicated that Joran was seen frequently (sometimes in company of Natalee) at the Casino of their hotel. These conflicting stories are causing chaos, hindering the developments in solving the case and also burdening all the families Holloway, van der Sloot, Kalpoe and recently Croes who are all personally affected by this case.

UPDATE 29: Hasibokos.com has just received information and confirmation that there has been an additional arrest in the Natalee Holloway case. We can also inform that Hasibokos.com has received information that indicates that the Aruban court is leaning towards extending the arrest of the 3 young suspects without charging them officially for a crime. We also learned that the prime minister of Aruba, Nelson Oduber, is facing a lot of criticism for his personal involvement in the case. Yesterday Andin Bikker of the political party Democrasia Real, criticized the prime minister publicly for coming forward and getting himself personally involved in the Holloway case. According to Bikker, the prime minister should abstain himself from personal involvement in all judicial cases and let the justice department do his job. Bikker relates the arrest of the (recently released) security guards directly to the pressure that has been put on the justice department to quickly find someone to blame/prosecute. Bikker also criticized the prime minister for his poor ability to express himself in the English language. Bikker advised the prime minister to take an English language course.

HBK-NOTE: Interesting fact….
The title of the petition proposed by various US radio stations is ‘BAN ARUBA’. Did you know that in Papiamentu, ‘ ban ’ means ‘ to go to ’ ? So in Papiamentu if you say to someone: “Ban Aruba”, you are actually saying: “Let’s go to Aruba”. Our guess is that the people behind the proposal did not think/know of that, otherwise they would have definitely chosen a synonym for the word ban or use a different title.
Just a note !

According to reports from travel agents, many North American and European tourists who booked a vacation to Aruba have switched to other holiday destinations .Yesterday Bill O'Reilly talked to Define from the Russ and Dee Show who is proposing the boycott of Aruba. On the website of the station, visitors can sign a petition online to ban Aruba. When the Aruban community heard of this proposition they became enraged. The local media of Aruba is asking the Aruban community to send e-mails to Define and condemn her proposition. The Arubans know that a successful boycott will hurt the local economy, but they are also certain that a boycott will hurt all the (American) airline companies that fly to Aruba and also the American hotel and fastfood chains that have a prominent presence on the island.

UPDATE 21:The attorney of the suspect Abraham Jones, Chris Lejuez, spoke in a live broadcast Monday afternoon and he confirmed personally what his client told him recently. This interview was conducted in Papiamentu and Hasibokos.com has compiled a summary of Lejuez' statements: Lejuez stated that his client did not know Joran van der Sloot before he saw him in his neighbouring cel. As Jones saw Joran crying in his cel, he did not know the reason why he was behind bars. Lejuez explained that he has no reason to doubt the story that his client told him. This is mainly because since his arrest, Jones has been secluded and Lejuez is conviced that Jones did not know about Joran until recently. Lejuez went on to say that Joran van der Sloot told his client that he did not go to the lighthouse with the Kalpoe brothers. Joran told Abraham Jones that after he left Carlos ‘N Charlies, he caught a ride home with the Kalpoe brothers and Natalee Holloway who was also in the car. Joran insists that the Kalpoes dropped him off at his home and drove off with Natalee in the car. It was only afterwards (a few days later), around the swimming pool at his house, that the Kalpoes made plans to come out with one version of the events. It has not been confirmed weather Joran has a swimming pool at his house. This could prove to be a crucial fact, because if Jones has never met Joran before he couldn’t have possibly known that Joran has a swimming pool at his home unless Joran had actually told him that. What makes the recent story of Joran van der Sloot interesting is that fact that he is saying now that he was dropped off at home and did not see Natalee after that. But he still collaborated with the Kalpoes afterwards as they allegedly conferred at his house around the pool.

[texasmom]

For ******* and anyone else that missed it, there is also a post in the S/S thread prior to this by capslockwizard about it.

http://misdaad.aktueel.nu/doorbraak_in_zaak_holloway.html

MISDAAD.AKTUEEL.NU
 
Nieuws vanaf Aruba. Ik doel daarbij niet op het gezinsdrama in Santa Cruz waarbij een drugsverslaafde zijn ouders en broer ombracht, maar op de zaak Natalee Holloway.
Alle hoop van het team dat de bekentenissen van Joran van der Sloot onderzoekt is gevestigd op een spoortje dat leidt naar een man, die wegens een drugsdelict vastzit in de Verenigde Staten. De politie heeft aanwijzingen dat hij wellicht de persoon is die het bootje heeft gevaren waarmee Natalee naar open zee is gebracht. De komende tijd moet duidelijk worden of het een heet spoor is of een dwaalspoor. Maar uit het feit dat het gaat om een zogeheten embargo-onderzoek (onderzoek dat nauwlettend wordt afgeschermd, ook voor collega-politiemensen) kan worden opgemaakt dat de informatie behoorlijk serieus wordt genomen. Zou de “Daury” dan toch bestaan?

A rough translation:

Breakthrough in Holloway Case?

News from Aruba. I don’t mean the family tragedy in Santa Crux were a drugs addict killed his parents and brother, but I mean the Holloway case.
The team of detectives, investigating the confessions of Joran v.d. Sloot, is tracing a man being lockup in the USA for a drugs crime. The police have indications he might be the one driving the little boat taking Natalee to the open sea. In the coming days it has to become clear weather this is a hot track or a wrong track.
But from the fact it the track is treated as a so called “embargo-investigation” (an investigation carefully separated, even for colleague police-officers), the conclusion could be taken that this information is rather serious.
Is it possible that after all this Daury really exists?

[WhiskeyGirl]

I haven't looked at the old Hasibokos stuff in a long time.  Here is one last piece ~

The story was published by  a couple of newspapers in The Netherlands yesterday and today. You can view one of the Dutch reports here in Haagsche Courant (local newspaper of The Hague)

The media in The Netherlands has picked up the story about the arrest of Paul van der Sloot on Friday. They reported the following:

Justitie verdenkt de Nederlandse rechter Paul van der S. (53) van het medeplegen van moord, doodslag of ontvoering met de dood tot gevolg. (Read Dutch article here )

Translation:
The justice department suspects the Dutch judge, Paul van der S. (53), of accessory to murder, manslaughter or kidnapping with dead as consequence.

[Observer]

Hello All   

My trip is complete and thanks for all the warm wishes..It is greatly appreciated as I made it safely and even got my internet hooked up the first day in my new house on a sunday!!

Could someone update me on anything new? TIA

*******!  Hi..good to see you!  Have you started the new job yet?

Nothing new except the civil case in the NL.  The media in the US still hasn't picked up on it.  Patrick has an update on his website:

http://patrickvandereem.nl/

Hi! Great to see you and everyone else I see online right now  Man..That was a Marathon trip!! I start work tommorow and I am already in my new place..I can't help but have a huuuuge smile on my face right now as I love my new home! I most certainly will never ever miss Providence Rhode Island and thank god I made the move..I may have to pinch myself tomorrow as I am in paradise compared to thatr place and my new employer even payed the way!! Dreams to come true! Well sometimes