Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4 - 4/11/08

[Spock]

Remember, no one will be questioned under oath until a Dutch Judge decides:

The suit has merit in that Beth's claim for "suffering" can be remedied under Dutch law
The suit has merit in that the Dutch Court is the "convenient venue"
The suit has merit in that it was filed in a timely manner

First the Motions to dismiss will be heard. This can take months. Then a witness list will have to be submitted to the Judge for approval. The Judge will decide who can and who can not be a witness. This will also take some time. After witnesses are decided, depositions are generally taken in a lawyers office, not a courtroom. Finally, after all the depositions are taken (Beth will also be deposed), Beth can choose to proceed to a judicial hearing.

It will all be up to a Dutch Judge as to whether the suit is heard or dismissed.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Remember, no one will be questioned under oath until a Dutch Judge decides:

The suit has merit in that Beth's claim for "suffering" can be remedied under Dutch law
The suit has merit in that the Dutch Court is the "convenient venue"
The suit has merit in that it was filed in a timely manner

First the Motions to dismiss will be heard. This can take months. Then a witness list will have to be submitted to the Judge for approval. The Judge will decide who can and who can not be a witness. This will also take some time. After witnesses are decided, depositions are generally taken in a lawyers office, not a courtroom. Finally, after all the depositions are taken (Beth will also be deposed), Beth can choose to proceed to a judicial hearing.

It will all be up to a Dutch Judge as to whether the suit is heard or dismissed.

It sounds to me as if this is a test of Dutch justice and the judicial system for many. 

A long time ago, there was some discussion about why the Kalpoes did not have the same problems with their story as JVDS.  One poster suggested that the Kalpoes only have one silver bullet, and they knew that 'now' (back then) was not the time to use it.

If the Kalpoes are deposed/chosen as witnesses, perhaps they will choose to use their silver bullet.

I wonder what, if anything, they would say differently. 

[Rob]

accidentally posted this in the Shango/Simian thread

Good Morning,

According to 24 ORA, three people were killed last night. These people seem to be family members. I note one person is named *Edvard* no last name listed yet.  Diario is asleep at the switch and has not covered this tragic event.

http://www.24ora.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

I'm not totally sure how this happened, but I do see the word *kerosene* listed. Maybe it is an accident.

It must be pretty serious as Rudy Croes was on the scene.


I also note that Edwin "Papito" Comenencia made the official polis statement. No sign of the small white van, but there were multiple hearses at the scene.

One comment (52 total currently) in English -
 P.K  said: _
     What the hell is happening to Aruba ....Jesus Christ...the next thing u know the island is becoming slowly but surely a hell. Its time they start putting these son of a * to life in prison and have a more strict approach to all that has been happening.
I mean let me guess the person who did this must be a freaking Colombian....only them people come up with such feracious ideas.
My sincere condolences goes out to the families of these poor victims.

++++++

*hard to imagine this is an accident with a comment like the one above* and I do not see a suspect named as of yet.

just to add, the above picture also includes Peter DeWitt

[WhiskeyGirl]

I went to 24ora and there was nothing on the front page.  None of the links worked.   

Maybe it's just me?

Or, this is serisous. 

[Rob]

Reading a little more of the story I mentioned above. It seems that a mother, father and child were killed and this may have happened by another child or related family member.

Family name appears to be Lampe.

[Rob]

Good Morning Whiskey Girl...

Try this link.
http://www.24ora.com/

I have to use *alternative* methods to get on the site to see the pictures because they have my IP blocked for boosting pictures.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Good Morning Whiskey Girl...

Try this link.
http://www.24ora.com/

I have to use *alternative* methods to get on the site to see the pictures because they have my IP blocked for boosting pictures.

thanks, I tried that simple link but it is also blank for me too.

I saw something earlier.  Maybe they are making some changes. 

[Blonde]

at previous to instant owing to enter the informe cu one cas will is at candela at macuarima y cu have person in the cas. at the momentonan here we can confirma cu this not was the caso. in the cas here at macuarima one person will have to owing to using carbon y kerosine for burn 3 person. at the momentonan here 10.15 miebronan of funeraria owing to arrive at the sitio debi cu the personanan do not give sign of life. also is circulando cu the person will have to owing to asesina the personanan previous to y after using charcoal on they. come across

[Buckeye]

GBMW

Thanks for the translation.  I'm sure it is time consuming translating and typing it all out.

I like Patrick.  Just not so sure of his background to explain the Dutch law...LOL...

[Tamikosmom]

Goodmorning!

Hereby the translation of a new blog on Patricks site....I had to do it quickly so there might be a few mistakes in it but it it's always a bit better than the google translation



The summonses of Bram Moszkowicz mother Holloway Case

I wrote him a few days ago whether he had any news for my blog, so I can tell my thousands of readers. I didn't hear anything from him, but now I understand that Mr. Bram must have been busy with the summonses. The process that Beth wants to start in civil court is now really going to begin.

Personally, I haven't recieved the subpoena yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Of course I am more than happy to help Beth. She has suffered so much.

It is still not clear what is going to happen with Joran concerning a criminal case. But this process to  demand shockdamage could already give some satisfaction. In the Netherlands the amounts are much smaller than in the United States. Eventually in the case of O.J. Simpson about $ 8.5 million was awarded. In the Netherlands those kind of amounts are unusual. It would quite something if a Dutch court would award Beth € 100,000 is she wins. Perhaps in this case, for the first time, there will be a higher amount. The life of Natalees' parents have been disrupted for years already.

Under Dutch law it's not that simple with shockdamages, mainly when it concerns victims of accidents. Our highest court awarded in 2002 the right to damages for the first time. A mother got € 13,000 when she got a psychological injury after seeing her dead  daughter at the crime scene.

The case of Joran is obviously something different. But this gives you one example of how low the damages always turn out. Our right is actually only the material damage compensation, such as cost of living when the person that makes the money in a household died. The death of a child, no matter how hard that may sound, is worth little in Dutch law. Usually it is not more than the funeral expenses plus a little extra. It gives us a bit of an idea. The commercialisation of grief, dispicable legal practices in a claimculture. So if the Dutch government rarely accepts schockdamages that will also have an effect in these kind of cases.

The lawyers of  Beth will probably go for the so-called onrechtmatige daad (unlawful act??? sorry don't know the translation!). This is an article in our Civil Code. It is positive for Beth that such a process means they have to testify under oath & anything can be asked and that they have no right to silence, like a criminal. Joran has frequently made use of that right to remain silent and kept his mouth shut. That's not an option anymore. His parents will be heard under oath as well. That could have a major impact. Suppose, for example, that they know a lot more about the case or that Joran is helped by his father. If his father would lie during this process and that were to come out during a possible criminal case then he has committed perjury. On perjury there is an imprisonment of six years and / or a fine of € 18,500. This applies also for all the other family members who would consult perjury, including Joran course.

It is difficult to prove an unlawful act for the judge. There is a lot to it. For example, the act has to be attributed to Joran or his relatives. It must be proven that the act is due to the debt or to a cause that was created by the acts or omissions of Joran and / or his parents. It was very stupid of Joran to say on Pauw & Witteman that he was only telling me a story. Something you obviously don't do when the feelings / hurt of parents are at stake.

The Kalpoe brothers were also summoned. Although in all my conversations with Joran it seemed like they have nothing to do with the disappearance of Natalee, Beth's lawyer of course wants to know why they gave Joran a false alibi.

Joran has put himself under treatment in a psychiatric institution. He is getting therapy for people who are stuck in everyday life and suffer from behavioural and psychiatric problems. According to some people he might have done this to avoid this process. As long as Joran is treated, his lawyer would be able to say that he is not in a position to answer. Meanwhile, of course, the case can start with the questioning of other witnesses. Normally these kinds of lawsuits take longer than a year.

I will keep you well informed about this case here. Personally, I will be heard as a witness in this process on a completely voluntarily basis. 

Thank you GBMW.

Good Morning Monkeys.

Janet
7:35 AM

++++++++++++++++++


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 26, 2005

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html


Beth Twitty
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
February 23, 2006

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: ... Deepak panicked. He panicked when the gardener gave that testimony. That very afternoon, he called an Aruban girl to help him establish an alibi. She, in turn, panicked. She called FBI. She dialed the 1-877-NATALEE number and told them that she did not want to be involved in this.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/23/lkl.01.html


Freddy Arambatzis
Witness Statement
De Zaak Natalee Holloway
June 12, 2005

<snipped>

The next day, Tuesday May 31st 2005 in the afternoon, I was with Joran at the raquetclub. Joran looked worried. He asked me if I could remember what he had said the previous day about the girl. I told him yes. The girl had gone missing. The FBI had been to his house during the night but he had not been home. His father had called him to find out where he was, Joran said that he was in the Raddison Casino. He told he that after that phone call he was called on the phone by Deepak and that Deepak picked him up a few minutes later. They drove to Joran's house. The FBI and the girls family were at his house. After that Joran told me that Deepak, Satish and himself did not drop off the girl at the Holiday Inn Hotel, but that THE FOUR OF THEM drove to the beach at the north side of the Marriot Hotel. The girl had fallen several times on the way to the beach. Joran told me that at some point she "no longer came around/no longer regained consciousness" and that THEY had left her on the beach. He also told me that he had left his gym/sporting shoes on the beach. After Joran had told me this, I asked him why he had left her there. He answered me that at that moment he had not known what to do. Joran told me that after this HE WAS DROPPED OFF AT HOME BY DEEPAK AND SATISH.
TranslationCredit: Rammstein

[katrien]

The  latest theoryof Renee Gielen  is that the mother of Natalee is going to claim (or claimed already) money from the insurance company for Natalee.  This is supposed to be very suspicious.

I thought Natalee was on the missing list of the FBI? What is wrong with Renee Gielen to write things like this? In the past she also wrote evident nonsence.

If Natalee’s mother is able to claim money from the insurance company for Natalee,  it is obvious that she is going to do so. She propably needs the money for all the trips, lawyers, stays in hotels, the plain for Natalee, etc. etc. All these costs are made because Joran and his father were fooling her around.
People from the village were Natalee was living, collected money to cover part of  the costs Natalee’s mother had to make.

It looks like a slander champagne against the mother of Natalee, Natalee, her father, her stepfather, her stepbrother, they all were mentioned in the champagne against Beth. They are also a bit slendery  towards Peter R and Patrick.
Some journalists call Patrick a betrayer. Pathetic. 

Patrick did a bit detective work. Detectives in Holland are not allowed to do those kind of things. Patrick did not force Joran to say anything. What’s wrong with the interview? We all can see the tape and listen to what Joran is telling all by himself,  and after all the lies he told in the past.

There are also posters  claiming that Peter R and Patrick are to be blamed by causing the shock. 

[WhiskeyGirl]

GBMW

Thanks for the translation.  I'm sure it is time consuming translating and typing it all out.

I like Patrick.  Just not so sure of his background to explain the Dutch law...LOL...

I wonder how much of the Dutch law, both civil and criminal is based on codes, modern law, and case law.  Are civil and criminal case law separate or would one pull from the same body of cases?

How new is the concept of civil law?  It would be interesting to know if the case law is in an easy to use database like Westlaw, in book form, or in some way published and distributed. 

Are transcripts kept of most cases?  Is this the norm or exception?

I've often wondered about the arguments that were reported between J2K in front of the judge.  What the heck did they argue about? 

From the VanityFair article -

"This latest story [came] when he saw the other guys, the Kalpoes, were kind of finger-pointing in his direction, and he wanted to screw them also, by saying he was dropped off," Dompig says. "But that story doesn't check out at all. He just wanted to screw Deepak. They had great arguments about this in front of the judge. Because their stories didn't match. This girl, she was from Alabama, she's not going to stay in the car with two black kids. We believe the second story, that they were dropped off by the Marriott. But then the time line [Joran has given] starts to get into trouble."

   

[WhiskeyGirl]

The  latest theoryof Renee Gielen  is that the mother of Natalee is going to claim (or claimed already) money from the insurance company for Natalee.  This is supposed to be very suspicious.

I thought Natalee was on the missing list of the FBI? What is wrong with Renee Gielen to write things like this? In the past she also wrote evident nonsence.

If Natalee’s mother is able to claim money from the insurance company for Natalee,  it is obvious that she is going to do so. She propably needs the money for all the trips, lawyers, stays in hotels, the plain for Natalee, etc. etc. All these costs are made because Joran and his father were fooling her around.
People from the village were Natalee was living, collected money to cover part of  the costs Natalee’s mother had to make.

It looks like a slander champagne against the mother of Natalee, Natalee, her father, her stepfather, her stepbrother, they all were mentioned in the champagne against Beth. They are also a bit slendery  towards Peter R and Patrick.
Some journalists call Patrick a betrayer. Pathetic. 

Patrick did a bit detective work. Detectives in Holland are not allowed to do those kind of things. Patrick did not force Joran to say anything. What’s wrong with the interview? We all can see the tape and listen to what Joran is telling all by himself,  and after all the lies he told in the past.

There are also posters  claiming that Peter R and Patrick are to be blamed by causing the shock. 

What insurance company could Beth recover costs from?  A policy the VDS may have?  The Dutch "personal liability" program I read about (I don't think they called it that exactly).

I think many will remember Joran mimicking Natalee's last moments/convulsions.  It is the stuff of nightmares. 

[sharon]

Thanks katrien.

I think they are saving the room next to Joran for Gielen 

[WhiskeyGirl]

I wonder if the civil case is one step towards some international court?  Human rights case in the future?

Exhausting all possibilities?

[dennisintn]

Thanks katrien.

I think they are saving the room next to Joran for Gielen 

gielen will be totally distraught. she was hoping for joint occupcancy with jvds and julia.
dennisintn

[texasmom]

Thanks katrien.

I think they are saving the room next to Joran for Gielen 

 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thanks katrien.

I think they are saving the room next to Joran for Gielen 

 

Fit Gielen with a nice jacket....

[WhiskeyGirl]

I wonder if Joe T. will be orchestrating the Dutch civil case?

Holland is just a short hop from Italy, and that may work well for his schedule.  mo

Will he defend the whole family?  Just the evidence?

[Tamikosmom]

The  latest theoryof Renee Gielen  is that the mother of Natalee is going to claim (or claimed already) money from the insurance company for Natalee.  This is supposed to be very suspicious.

I thought Natalee was on the missing list of the FBI? What is wrong with Renee Gielen to write things like this? In the past she also wrote evident nonsence.

If Natalee’s mother is able to claim money from the insurance company for Natalee,  it is obvious that she is going to do so. She propably needs the money for all the trips, lawyers, stays in hotels, the plain for Natalee, etc. etc. All these costs are made because Joran and his father were fooling her around.
People from the village were Natalee was living, collected money to cover part of  the costs Natalee’s mother had to make.

It looks like a slander champagne against the mother of Natalee, Natalee, her father, her stepfather, her stepbrother, they all were mentioned in the champagne against Beth. They are also a bit slendery  towards Peter R and Patrick.
Some journalists call Patrick a betrayer. Pathetic. 

Patrick did a bit detective work. Detectives in Holland are not allowed to do those kind of things. Patrick did not force Joran to say anything. What’s wrong with the interview? We all can see the tape and listen to what Joran is telling all by himself,  and after all the lies he told in the past.

There are also posters  claiming that Peter R and Patrick are to be blamed by causing the shock. 

Renee Gielen has always been a VDS' apologist.  To further her agenda ... she creates smokescreen meant to direct negative attention on Natalee and ... her family.

Maybe it was the official press release from Rudy Croes' that convinced Beth that her daughter was no longer alive.

Maybe it was the suspicions which warranted the detention of the formal suspects in the Natalee Holloway case that convinced Beth that Natalee was deceased.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++

Spokesperson for the Aruban Minister
Associated Press
June 11, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Reports conflicted Saturday in developments of the Alabama honor student who has been missing in Aruba for almost two weeks.

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html


Beth Twitty
'Scarborough Country'
July 12, 2005

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: And that was the day that the FBI came in, Doug Shipley (ph) came in and said that the way the interrogations are unfolding, there‘s a strong possibility that Natalee may not be alive. That was huge. That was the day that—I think, Joe, everyone buried Natalee that day, on June 10.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9813596/


JUNE, 2005

Mickey John:  first and second-degree murder and capital kidnapping.

Abraham Jones:  first and second-degree murder and capital kidnapping.
 
Joran van der Sloot:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder

Deepak Kalpoe:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Steve Croes:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.   

Paulus van der Sloot:  complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping.


AUGUST, 2005

Deepak Kalpoe:  Suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences and even more alternately, raping somebody and new suspicions.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences and even more alternately, raping somebody and new suspicions


APRIL, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt:  criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.

Guido Weaver:  Assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen


NOVEMBER, 2007

Joran van der Sloot - Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.

Satish Kalpoe -  Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.

Deepak Kalpoe - Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.