Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4 - 4/11/08

[WhiskeyGirl]

BFN chat  -

The crew of the Persistence also did their own investigation while on Aruba.  They spoke with LE.  Someone asked what they thought of the investigators, and John noted that they didn't meet with any of the original investigators.  It's a new group working the case and they want the case solved.  He did not comment on the originals, as they never met them or worked with them.  They investigated old and new tips, psychics, nutcases, and all kinds of possibilities.  When on land, they took the time to investigate many things.  (I don't remember all the specifics, this would make a nice follow-up question) 

From what I remember, it seems like they looked at the stories that have been floating around for over two years from a "feet on the ground" perspective.  They noted that ALE has a number of possibilities still under consideration.  (my summary - the usual suspects, they just don't know what/how it happened)

Someone mentioned that when JVDS videos came out, there was a lot of interest in the mangroves at the fishermens huts.  Someone asked how many of the huts around the island had mangroves near them?  Could it have been a different set of fishermen huts?  Dave mentioned that mangroves are all over the island.

The beach at the lighthouse was brought up.  I remember pictures of some lower cliff/beach by the lighthouse, that may have had trees, it had a parking lot.  The beach area did not look like it was in the line of site from the upper area, it was secluded.  I don't remember where I saw that picture.
====================

Of the fishermen huts, this comes from Joran.  Could a trap have been stolen from the huts by the hotels, and the mangrove have been from another hut/beach area? 

The topic of the strike came up.  I was not aware of how many people were on strike.  It's not just police and air traffic controllers, but a lot of government employees.  Hopefully the strikers returned to work on Monday.  They haven't had a raise since the late 1990's. 
============

John mentioned that the Dutch/Euro people thought they were searching for oil when they started.  This brought up mention of RU, and what that site is about.  Also mentioned that the Dutch map people asked for their data so they could update their maps of the island data.

[private eye]

From the BFN chat Sunday -

The topic of the shirt / fishnet came up.  IIRC, it is not known what happened to that scrap, I do not believe anyone in the family saw it.  It should have been further investigated.  What happened to it? 

The topic of the shoulder bone found by the scuba diver came up, it contained tissue.  This was determined by someone to be the "donkey bone." 

Why didn't the investigators communicate these discoveries to the entire investigation team? 
========================
My comments -

Who determined the bone was from a donkey?  Where was it sent for analysis?  Other bones were determined to be fish bones or not human.  Were any of these bones sent for analysis by experts?  IIRC, they were just tossed away.  Why would anyone toss out something that might be related to a missing human?  An active search?  When you knew your suspects were not telling the truth?

It is very sad to me that someone may have thrown away the only remaining evidence of what was once someone's daughter.  How could a small piece of shoulder bone with tissue harm anyone?  A DNA test might have eliminated all the questions, but I don't think the tissue was sent for analysis.

There are folks that have noted the stray and dead dogs on the island.  I've never been there.

How many stray and dead donkeys has anyone seen on Aruba?

It's very sad to me that someone, anyone, could throw away Natalee. That's so sad. Makes my blood boil sometimes. Actually all the time.

Maybe they meant jack ass as Aruba is heavily populated with them

[klaasend]

Tonight on Dana Pretzer:

Join Dana this week as he welcomes:

    * R. Stephanie Good, attorney and NY Times Best Selling Author
discussing The Secret Lives of Women
    * Don Clark, retired FBI bureau chief and current Private Investigator
discussing the ruling on the Bahamian inquest into the death of Daniel
Smith
    * Aden McEvoy, father of Becca McEvoy

LISTEN LIVE TONIGHT AT 9PM EASTERN

www.scaredmonkeysradio.com

I realize that it's off topic and this is a thread for Natalee but I want everyone to pls make sure and read the front page about Becca.... and send emails galore to help this case get the attention it deserves.  I know that part of Natalee's legacy is that we fight bad things happening to others... please also stand with this little girl... and we will always stand with the girl... just keep standing or you'll fall for anything.

Coming up after the break, Becca's father

[Rob]

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed:)

you said it..

[private eye]

BFN chat  -

The crew of the Persistence also did their own investigation while on Aruba.  They spoke with LE.  Someone asked what they thought of the investigators, and John noted that they didn't meet with any of the original investigators.  It's a new group working the case and they want the case solved.  He did not comment on the originals, as they never met them or worked with them.  They investigated old and new tips, psychics, nutcases, and all kinds of possibilities.  When on land, they took the time to investigate many things.  (I don't remember all the specifics, this would make a nice follow-up question) 

From what I remember, it seems like they looked at the stories that have been floating around for over two years from a "feet on the ground" perspective.  They noted that ALE has a number of possibilities still under consideration.  (my summary - the usual suspects, they just don't know what/how it happened)

Someone mentioned that when JVDS videos came out, there was a lot of interest in the mangroves at the fishermens huts.  Someone asked how many of the huts around the island had mangroves near them?  Could it have been a different set of fishermen huts?  Dave mentioned that mangroves are all over the island.

The beach at the lighthouse was brought up.  I remember pictures of some lower cliff/beach by the lighthouse, that may have had trees, it had a parking lot.  The beach area did not look like it was in the line of site from the upper area, it was secluded.  I don't remember where I saw that picture.
====================

Of the fishermen huts, this comes from Joran.  Could a trap have been stolen from the huts by the hotels, and the mangrove have been from another hut/beach area? 

The topic of the strike came up.  I was not aware of how many people were on strike.  It's not just police and air traffic controllers, but a lot of government employees.  Hopefully the strikers returned to work on Monday.  They haven't had a raise since the late 1990's. 
============

John mentioned that the Dutch/Euro people thought they were searching for oil when they started.  This brought up mention of RU, and what that site is about.  Also mentioned that the Dutch map people asked for their data so they could update their maps of the island data.

The crew of the Persistence performed heroically and professionally. They did everything possible to help, and made the impossible possible

[Blue Moon]

From the BFN chat Sunday -

The topic of the shirt / fishnet came up.  IIRC, it is not known what happened to that scrap, I do not believe anyone in the family saw it.  It should have been further investigated.  What happened to it? 

The topic of the shoulder bone found by the scuba diver came up, it contained tissue.  This was determined by someone to be the "donkey bone." 

Why didn't the investigators communicate these discoveries to the entire investigation team? 
========================
My comments -

Who determined the bone was from a donkey?  Where was it sent for analysis?  Other bones were determined to be fish bones or not human.  Were any of these bones sent for analysis by experts?  IIRC, they were just tossed away.  Why would anyone toss out something that might be related to a missing human?  An active search?  When you knew your suspects were not telling the truth?

It is very sad to me that someone may have thrown away the only remaining evidence of what was once someone's daughter.  How could a small piece of shoulder bone with tissue harm anyone?  A DNA test might have eliminated all the questions, but I don't think the tissue was sent for analysis.

There are folks that have noted the stray and dead dogs on the island.  I've never been there.

How many stray and dead donkeys has anyone seen on Aruba?

It's very sad to me that someone, anyone, could throw away Natalee. That's so sad. Makes my blood boil sometimes. Actually all the time.

Maybe they meant jack ass as Aruba is heavily populated with them

My, My. Aren't we on a roll tonight?

[Rob]

ladies, I just wanted you to know I have a really hard time with the crimes against kids and usually don't even look in the threads... this little Becca McEvoy just breaks my heart.

[klaasend]

ladies, I just wanted you to know I have a really hard time with the crimes against kids and usually don't even look in the threads... this little Becca McEvoy just breaks my heart.

Listening to her dad is heart breaking.  This is such a horrible and sad story.

[Rob]

ladies, I just wanted you to know I have a really hard time with the crimes against kids and usually don't even look in the threads... this little Becca McEvoy just breaks my heart.

Listening to her dad is heart breaking.  This is such a horrible and sad story.

I feel for her Dad and I hope she rests in peace in God's arms.

[WhiskeyGirl]

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed:)

My thoughts -

The Arubans may have investigated that one trap and its contents that was shown on TV.  And, they recovered something. 

I believe this is an opportunity for Arubans to hold their government accountable for sharing the results of what was found.  The contents in many ways represent the future of Aruba, my opinion.  If this wasn't Natalee, what was it?  Who was it?  How do you know this? 

Do Aruban's have the right to know what was recovered?

I think there is also much I haven't seen.  I haven't seen all the ROV footage of that cage.  I haven't seen any film the Aruban's took during their dive. 

Would the side scan radar have shown a skull shaped object in that cage?  It isn't clear to me just what the cage and contents would have looked like from the radar perspective.  Why was this a target?
=============

John repeated the message during chat that they were sorry that the family was informed about the cage (my paraphrase).  I believe it was not as promising as they expected.

Is the cage the one and only item of interest?  no.

Who would it benefit if they stopped looking?

[klaasend]

GREAT SHOW DANA!

[WhiskeyGirl]

I wonder about the F16 flyover Aruba and the data they collected.  How much of the data is from the water around Aruba? 

What did that water look like to the scanning equipment?  Looking at that area from the present, with new information from secret videos, are there areas that may be of renewed interest? 

Could any of the F16 info be used by Persistence?  I wonder if the Persistence had the opportunity to look at the F16 data?  Combine both sets of data?

Was ship data stored in Aruba from those days after Natalee went missing?  Did they track the path of ships/boats?  Especially those that left the island and returned within a short period of time?

[klaasend]

Please go to the Crimes against Children forum and read about Becca McElvoy.  The family needs our help emailing awareness about this case:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2773.0

[Observer]

Third Emergency landing of an American Airlines boeing 757 in less than 6 months in Aruba, the second in 3 weeks. Third Emergency landing of an American Airlines... 
Added: April 08, 2008

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HHlKqLYiZo8

[WhiskeyGirl]

ladies, I just wanted you to know I have a really hard time with the crimes against kids and usually don't even look in the threads... this little Becca McEvoy just breaks my heart.

Listening to her dad is heart breaking.  This is such a horrible and sad story.

I don't know how people can do things like this. 

Here is the online petition -

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/justice4her/index.html

[Tamikosmom]

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed:)

PI ... I agree.

I cannot comprehend how the organizers of the Persistence search considers the Aruban police ...  who are accountable to Rudy Croes ... are on the side of justice for Natalee Holloway.  Has nothing been learned from the the search that was just terminated.

If a search cannot be conducted independently of Aruba or  ... FBI agents cannot observe and document a find prior to turning it over to the Arubans ... I believe with all my heart all the sincere efforts of the crew of the Persistence is for naught.  I cannot comprehend why the Persistence did not do their own documentation and photographing prior to releasing the contents of the fish trap to the Arubans.  Too much time, finances and effort was put into the search.  Why just hand it over to the administration that has distroyed evidence and supressed incriminating witness statements from the getgo.

Janet

+++++++++++

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_38773.php

Amigoe
January 17, 2008
Natalee abused by stepfather Jug

This time, the local media has paid plenty of attention to the story of Dan Young and Kelly Castillo.

ORANJESTAD — Minister Rudy Croes (MEP) of Justice is of the opinion that the findings of the two American investigators Daniel Young and Kelly Castillo in the disappearance case of Natalee Holloway, must be seriously considered. The two assert that Natalee’s stepfather Jug Twitty has abused and impregnated her and that her mother Beth knew about it. The two also say that Natalee had died from an overdose two weeks after the night on the beach with Joran van der Sloot when she disappeared. “Joran is innocent”, said the investigators.

<snipped>

Croes is of the opinion that now that the case against the suspects Joran and the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe has brought no results, the Public Prosecution must also consider other scenarios. Castillo and Young’s findings must therefore be seriously investigated, said the minister. “After Beth has been in Oprah’s program, it will be good to tell the other side of the story.” Oprah Winfrey has spent some time on the Holiday-matter in her show yesterday.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_38773.php


Oceanexplorer
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.  The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


Jossy Mansur
DANA SHOW
June 18, 2006

MANSUR: It does look very familiar to what she was wearing, but I'm unable to confirm it, we would have to go search for the fabric itself which has disappeared since. Every piece of evidence or what appears to be evidence has disappeared or we never heard about it again.

Jug Twitty
On the Record w/ Gret
September 28, 2005

TWITTY: No, I mean just things like, you know, one of the things when I left down there last time, we have another attorney, Helen, and Helen asked that three of the people that were with Beth and I that night we first arrived on the island, the FBI took their statements when they came back to the United States, but obviously, the Aruban police really didn’t use their statements because I believe that the people there the first night, like myself, could give you answers as to what Joran said, what his dad said, what happened, all this kind of stuff.

So my attorney asked that we come back to the United States, take these three people, go to a federal judge, have them sworn in, and we have a federal judge here that was kind enough to help us bring these three friends in that were there that night and take their sworn statements. And of course, my attorney in Birmingham is calling down there, asking Karin Janssen, What exactly do you want? She won’t even return his phone calls. I mean, it’s pitiful. It’s horrible.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170678,00.html

[klaasend]

Third Emergency landing of an American Airlines boeing 757 in less than 6 months in Aruba, the second in 3 weeks. Third Emergency landing of an American Airlines... 
Added: April 08, 2008

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HHlKqLYiZo8

There was a report also that AA and Continental Airlines diverted to Curacao because of the strike.

[Observer]

Why don't these people stand up to what is really killing there country and there economy? Asking that Governement to act in good faith? Are you kidding me??

StandUpForYourRights-INDEXERING-Aruba 2008

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ps5gVp-MU-g

[Kermit]

My question is, and I don't think it's so far out there, was the Tattoo the place where girls were targeted? 

NO. It was ONE place.

Joran targetted Natalee & the other MB girls at the HI.
Those kids hang out at the hotels and pick up tourists.

Kermit - I agree, Joran's group of pimps targeted at the HI.  I'm just wondering if some targeting was being done by others on the Tattoo and maybe Steve Croes is involved in that aspect. 

Voyeurism at it's worst. Here is an old post.


Lucy on June 21st, 2005 12:46 pm
Kris
CRS is right. Checkme told us two days before it happened about the Steve Croes arrest anf the Lorenzo Van Sijn questioning. Also told us from the beginning that Deepak, the cool, calm, calculating Kalpoe has more responsibility than it seemed.
_________________________________
Lucy on June 21st, 2005 1:18 pm

Lorenzo is a friend of Steve Croes, the Kalpoes and Joran, that was broght in for questioning along with Max Arends, after Steve Croes was detained. For more info, check Brqaking News #10 and #11, at the discussion forum. There is also information on these guys at Misfitting.com
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/20/beth-twitty-on-greta-van-sustren/

[Rob]

down for the fight