Natalee Case Discussion #748 4/17 - 4/24/08

[Kermit]

Sorry, I screwed up the previous post.
I wanted to share the response that I got from Patrick. He continues to focus on crime in America as if it is an excuse for what occured in Aruba, or perhaps because we also have crime it somehow makes Natalee's disappearance OK.  It's not about us Patrick.  It's all about Aruba and we didn't cause the problem, Aruba did.  Aruba needs to fix the problem and until they do, we will boycott.

Dear Mr or Mrs. Smith

I don’t see any new point of view in this that has not already been discussed. But you had not posted yet, so I give you some space. I notice again that you are also one of these scared monkeys who have consipracy on the top of their minds. It is not a diversion tactic and I don’t have fellow Arubans I even spoke with this about. Of course it is important to realize that a kid - just as example - lives in a far more dangerous world in the USA as far as crime goes, than in France, or Germany… or Aruba. In the sense of a call for a boycott that says all. Cover-ups, corruption and bad actions of dirty authorities also happen in the States. Let me say it very simple, if Natalee would have been black for instance the media would have not paid that much - if any - attention. Also that happens in your own country many times. Focus on your own faults, I have already focused on the one that happened 3 years ago in Aruba and I’m still working on it.

For the rest, see Soph, she all summed it up correctly.

Greetings,

Patrick

O.J. SIMPSON is BLACK and American Media paid and still pays a LOT of attention to his murder and trial.

[SS]

Well personally I could care less what Patrick thinks

He has some very negative things to say about us over on his site.  I think he's a loser and a con.  I'm definitely not supporting his book sales.

[klaasend]

Well personally I could care less what Patrick thinks

He has some very negative things to say about us over on his site.  I think he's a loser and a con.  I'm definitely not supporting his book sales.

Yes I know he has.  What I don't like about his negativity about SM is that it mirrors RU in that anyone that is for a boycott is a Monkkkey. 

I never had intentions of purchasing his book and like I said, really could care less how he feels about a boycott or SM.

[Tamikosmom]

I apologize if this had been dialogued in the past few hours.  I just go home ... accessed Patrick site to see if any of my submissions were posted and ... read the following ...

 

38 ... April 18th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Justice for Natalee Holloway said:

Patrick, Like so many posters from Aruba you are very quick to point out that the US has crime. You are absolutely correct, Patrick, the US has a lot of crime, but this is not about the US. It’s about Aruba. This is a diversion tactic that you and your fellow Arubans put forth in an attempt to change the focus from the Natalee crime to general crime in the US. It simply isn’t about us this time, it’s all about Aruba. Aruba is responsible for the corruption and the coverup that followed the horrific disappearance of a promising young American woman who chose to celebrate a significant event in her life on your island. The way in which her disappearance has been handled is deplorable. After three years, we continue to learn of the depth of the corruption and coverup. It would most assuredly be a valuable learning experience for you to read the many hours of research and documentation of corruption and a coverup that exists at the scared monkey site. I am confident though, that you are already aware of this and you have probably personally experienced much of what we have put forth about corruption and coverups.

Contrary to the implications that you have made, we are not ignorant enough to believe that we hold every man. woman, and child on Happy Island directly responsible for the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. It’s insulting that you would even suggest this. We do know that those who are directly responsible have been protected. We have no way to break through this web of protection with only our voices and requests. Our boycott of Aruba is intended to force the citizens of Aruba to demand what they already know should be the right actions from their government. Three years of pleas for justice have been to no avail. Perhaps by affecting the personal bank accounts of the Aruban citizens, we will finally see the culmination of our demands for justice. The Aruban people have certainly been quite vocal of late in demanding salary and overtime increases. Perhaps they will eventually also demand justice and right actions. Our basic requests are not at all outrageous. We are asking for honor and truth. These are two human rights that should be afforded to everyone on your island whether they are Aurban or foreign tourists.

We are appreciative of your efforts to expose Joran van der Sloot. We were supportive of you when you met with resistance on your recent trip to Aruba. You have most certainly been effective in keeping this crime and Joran, himself, in the media. We celebrate that your actions have most assuredly brought a great deal of stress and discomfort to the perpetrators. We also accept that as an Aruban it is most likely painful for you to witness any financial loss to your island. However, you must also be cognizant of the fact that we did not create the Natalee Holloway incident. Aruban/Dutch people created this problem and it is Aruba who must step forward with the correct resolution. Until this happens, we will continue to boycott your Happy Island for what was done to Natalee Holloway, for what was done to her parents, and for what has been done to other American tourists who have ventured onto your island.
We want justice, Patrick, and we will not stop until it is delivered by the government and people of Aruba. We will continue to boycott your island and I have no doubt that you would do the same if this had happened to a Dutch or Aruban girl on the streets of the US. Your pompous statements will only serve to fuel our anger and our resolve. I am sincerely disappointed to learn that you have known the van der Sloots for seven years, lived across the street from the Kalpoes, and staged the entire video with your friend Joran. You should be ashamed of yourself. I, for one, will not be purchasing your volume of fiction and I have no intention of stopping my boycott of Aruba.

RESPONSE PATRICK
Dear Mr or Mrs. Smith
I don’t see any new point of view in this that has not already been discussed. But you had not posted yet, so I give you some space. I notice again that you are also one of these scared monkeys who have consipracy on the top of their minds. It is not a diversion tactic and I don’t have fellow Arubans I even spoke with this about. Of course it is important to realize that a kid - just as example - lives in a far more dangerous world in the USA as far as crime goes, than in France, or Germany… or Aruba. In the sense of a call for a boycott that says all. Cover-ups, corruption and bad actions of dirty authorities also happen in the States. Let me say it very simple, if Natalee would have been black for instance the media would have not paid that much - if any - attention. Also that happens in your own country many times. Focus on your own faults, I have already focused on the one that happened 3 years ago in Aruba and I’m still working on it.

For the rest, see Soph, she all summed it up correctly.

Greetings,
Patrick

[Tamikosmom]

Patricks Blog

Monday, April 14th, 2008
The ongoing boycot Aruba saga

http://patrickvandereem.nl/uncategorized/the-ongoing-boycot-aruba-saga/

[Pita]

Posted on: 12:47 am, June 07, 2005

on the carlosandcharlies dot com webpage, in the Shout Only box, there is a shoutout from some detectiveghyno that states "look at the site of the old idian(sic) reservation"


The shout is clearly intended in context of the missing girl.


To be taken seriously? Maybe not, but noteworthy. Anyone familiar w/ an old indian reservation on the island?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
was this also a Shango message?

Maybe here

In 1499, the Spanish explorer, Alonso de Ojeda laid claim to the territory for Spain's Queen Isabella.  Legend has it that de Ojeda named Aruba Oro Hubo, meaning there is gold there.  However, the Spanish did not find the gold they sought, and because they found the climate too arid for cultivating crops, they made little use of the island.  For the next 150 years, Aruba became a retreat for pirates and buccaneers who preyed on the ships carrying Indian treasures back to the Old World.  The ruins of an old pirate castle still remains at Bushiribana, on the northeast coast of the island.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here are the ruins of the  old pirate castle  at Bushiribana,not far from Joran's place

I did some browsing through Aruban history and came up with the names Arikok Park and Tanki Flip as possible sites for old Indian villages.  I have no idea where on the island these places are located.

I found a reference to Balashi as the location where the gold was originally discovered - gold bricks?

The Archaeological Museum of Aruba

snipped...

The Pre-ceramic Indians buried their dead in family groups under large pieces of limestone. One such family group was found in a cave at Canashito, while many family groups (in total ca. 70 dead) were excavated at Malmok. Their well-organized burial tradition is probably a reflection of their small-scale, well-organized society.
   
Approximately 1000 years ago a different group of people established themselves on the island. These people are named Dabajurans after the "type site" Dabajuro on the mainland (West Venezuela, Falcon State). They named themselves Caquetios, which name is used most of the time. They came from Northwestern Venezuela. The period in which they inhabited the island (1000 to 1515 A.D.) we call the Ceramic Period.

The Caquetios were farmers and cultivated maize and manioc. They lived in villages (100-150 people) situated in Santa Cruz, Sabaneta, Tanki Flip, Tanki Lender and Parkietenbos. All villages were constructed near fresh water gullies (rooi) and near soil suitable for cultivation.

The pottery they manufactured was mainly used for cooking, storage, serving food and transportation. A large scale excavation at Tanki Flip uncovered the remains of several oval houses where extended families (mother, father, children, grandparents, uncles etc.) or multi families (more than one family) resided. Also the floor plan of smaller, round houses for one or two nuclear families (father, mother and children) were found, while also a rectangular ceremonial structure was uncovered.

The Caquetios lived on the island until 1515 when most of them were taken by the Spanish to Santo Domingo/Haiti. It is not known if it were the Caquetios or another group(s) which returned in 1526 with the Spanish. Both the Spanish and this group of Indians left around 1636 when the island was taken by the Dutch.

http://www.visitaruba.com/facts/general/musea/archeological.html



 

[Rob]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

[Tamikosmom]

Patrick and Joran both claim that they first met in the summer of 2007.

Janet

+++++++++++

Joran Van der Sloot
Pauw & Witteman
(Phone Interview/Grandma's house)
February 4, 2008

Question: How did this all happen, with this so called confession.

Joran: Yes, I did say something to someone I should not have said, it's a story to someone I have know for a while.

Question: How long have you known him?

Joran: about 6 months.


Meet the Man Who Got Van Der Sloot to Talk About Holloway's Disappearance
Patrick van der Eem Gives the Inside Story to ABC News
By CHRIS CUOMO and CHRIS FRANCESCANI
Feb. 4, 2008
 
The entire operation began by chance in a Dutch casino. Van der Eem, a bold and emotional Dutch businessman who had never met van der Sloot before but followed the case with a passion, ran into his eventual target and claimed he decided on the spot to try and get inside the head of a man he believed had disgraced their nation.

"Getting involved is hard, you know, but I knew if I could have done something, or can do in the future, I will," he said.

"And when you saw him in the casino,'' ABC News' Chris Cuomo asked him, "you said this is your chance?"

"And I will finish him,'' van der Eem replied, explaining that he'd grown frustrated watching van der Sloot tell one news organization after another that the Aruban people are "with'' him.

"The Aruban people are good people who will give you the trust, because the justice system sometimes fails a little bit. But I knew there was something wrong in this story,'' van der Eem said.

Van der Eem adopted a strategic approach.

He walked up to van der Sloot and said without introduction, "Hey murderer'' in Papiamento, the official language of Aruba.

He said he knew that "nobody on the other table would understand what I said to him because we live here in Holland and … we talk Dutch.''

After getting van der Sloot's attention, van der Eem said, "I went, 'How are you doing? Fine?' And I walked away. I went smoking a cigarette. And two minutes later he came [over].''

Van der Eem struck up a conversation with van der Sloot and began asking him how he spent his summer. The young man replied that he played poker and smoked marijuana, van der Eem said, and the "game was started."

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/2020/Story?id=4236425&page=1
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/2020/Story?id=4236425&page=2

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

Rob ... I just know what I just posted above ... copied and pasted from Patrick's blog.

Janet

[GBMW]

Well personally I could care less what Patrick thinks

He has some very negative things to say about us over on his site.  I think he's a loser and a con.  I'm definitely not supporting his book sales.

Could we agree to disagree?
I'm not someone who believes in the corruption in the extent like a lot of posters do on this site. I also disagree when it comes to the subject of the boycott; I think it's wrong.

But I do believe Joran is involved in the dissapearance / murder of Natalee and needs to be held accountable for his actions as well as the people that have helped him to cover it up.
Patrick van der Eem & the team of Peter R. de Vries  have put a lot of effort to try and help Natalee's family & in a way they succeeded like no one did before. Beth has some peace now, the case is reopened & Beth is starting a civil case. Doesn't that count for anything?
It's seems a bit strange to me to call someone a loser / con or whatever because opinions don't match 100% & some posts on his blog could have been a bit more friendly...but that's jmo.

[SS]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

[Pita]

More info here on the Tanki Flip excavation.....located in the northwestern portion of Aruba.

http://home.planet.nl/~vrstg/western/aruba/tf.htm

The Tanki Flip site

A project to investigate the Tanki Flip site - designated as 'an Indian campsite' by Van Koolwijk already in 1883 - was organized by the Archaeological Museum Aruba and Leiden University, because of the planned use of this area for modern house building. In 1994, an uninterrupted area of ca 48 x 50 m (front cover) was opened up by a team from these institutions, together with team members from Cuba, France and the U.S.A. (back cover), in what was interpreted to have been the northern portion of the prehistoric Tanki Flip settlement......

[Tamikosmom]

GBMW ... as time goes on it has been revealed that Joran's words in that video recording was one lie after another.  The three judge panel also came to that conclusion ... that is why Joran was not detained.  I wonder if Beth still has peace or ... she is beginning to reconsider.

I know I am.

Janet

+++++++++++++

February 15, 2008
Court of Appeal upholds lower judge’s decision not to detain J.v.d.S.
J.v.d.S remains prime suspect
Judicial investigation continues

The Court of Appeal announced by the end of yesterday, February 14th, 2008, its decision to uphold the refusal by the investigating judge to order pre-trial detention of J.v.d.S. in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. The Office of the Public Prosecutor had requested such an order after the “Peter R de Vries-tapes” had been received by the Office and had been evaluated. Last week the Office appealed the ruling of refusal by the judge.

The reasons underlying the Court’s decision are the following. The Court has seen the visual materials, has listened to the audio materials and has inspected the verbatim reports. Based on that, the Court is of the opinion that there is a lack of sufficient facts and circumstances substantiating serious grounds for the suspicion of the suspect’s involvement in the crimes for which he is being held responsible by the prosecution. The Court will generally be a bit more hesitant when it has to decide on a new request for pre-trial detention of a suspect, when that same suspect has been detained repeatedly before and there has been a considerable lapse of time.

J.v.d.S. has given extensive and detailed statements in Patrick van der Eem’s car, the undercover citizen who worked for Peter R. de Vries, on what happened during the night of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Nevertheless the Court sees various reasons not to accept the serious grounds of suspicion which are statutorily required for pre-trial detention. One of them is the history of contradictory statements by J.v.d.S., which were belied repeatedly by objective findings.

At this moment those parts of the statements made in Van der Eem’s car which contain new elements are not being underpinned by objective findings. Considering the possibility of a serious personality disorder – as voiced by the prosecution – combined with a personal history of untrue statements and remarks, which even according to the suspect himself are frequently false, the Court of Appeal has reasons for doubt regarding the incriminating character of the “car-statements.”

On the pre-trial detention issue the Code of criminal procedure does not provide for further appeals. The effect of the Court decision is that J.v.d.S. cannot be (re)arrested. The investigation of the Natalee Holloway case continues. J.v.d.S. is again the prime suspect.

At the end of the investigation the Office of the Public Prosecution will decide whether to charge or not.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2605.msg350846;topicseen#msg350846


02/15/2008
No custody for Van der Sloot

ORANJESTAD – After the Public Prosecutor appealed the decision of the examining magistrate not to detain Joran van der Sloot, the Common Court of Justice of the Neth.Antilles and Aruba announced yesterday evening that Joran van der Sloot will not be arrested again in the Holloway-case.   

After having examined the possible slanderous image- and sound recording in secret by the editorial office of the Dutch crime journalist Peter R. de Vries, the Court says that there is not enough material to charge him.   The Court can in any case not really answer the question whether based on that, the suspect must be taken into preventive custody.  The decision also includes the situation that the suspect had given several inconsistent declarations, ‘whereby it also appeared more than once that these declarations could not be objectively confirmed’.    What also played a part is the statement of Van der Sloot about having made up everything he had said in De Vries’ programme.   The Court does not rule out the fact that the suspect has a ‘serious personality problem’. 

“The Court questioned the verity of this statement, while we could have arrested him for a third time”, explained district attorney Dop Kruimel.  Some of the things he said were partly consistent with justice’s own investigation.  Others were not though, like the boat he mentioned; that has not been found yet.”

The OM has no statutory remedies left against the decision.  The investigation in the Holloway-case will continue with 25 detectives working on it and Van der Sloot remains the suspect.  The OM will decide on further prosecution of Van der Sloot after they are done with the investigation.

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

Thank you SS.

Can you reveal your source to this info?  As Beth would say ... "Greta ... this is huge!"

Janet

[SS]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

Thank you SS.

Can you reveal your source to this info?  As Beth would say ... "Greta ... this is huge!"

Janet

I very carefully chose my words when I said that "I was  sincerely disappointed to learn that...".  You guys need to spend some more time over on the Shango threads.   CAPS gave us addresses from an Aruban directly where Patrick was living across the street from the Kalpoes.  He also told us that Patrick had known the Sloots for about 7 years. 

[Tamikosmom]

Considering that Patrick has been selecting the submission that he will post at his blog in regards to dialogue that began with the boycott issue ... I am shocked that actually posting this one.

It confirms that the entire video recording "confession" was nothing but a sham.  Exactly what *******, San and I ... as well as others ... suspected all along.

Will the deception out of Aruba regarding the disappearance of Natalee Holloway ever end?  When will her family ever be able to awake from this ongoing nightmare?

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

Thank you SS.

Can you reveal your source to this info?  As Beth would say ... "Greta ... this is huge!"

Janet

I very carefully chose my words when I said that "I was  sincerely disappointed to learn that...".  You guys need to spend some more time over on the Shango threads.   CAPS gave us addresses from an Aruban directly where Patrick was living across the street from the Kalpoes.  He also told us that Patrick had known the Sloots for about 7 years. 

 

CAPS revealed this on the Shango thread!!  I wish it had been brought over the the Natalee Holloway discussion thread.

Nevertheless ... GREAT DETECTIVE WORK CAPS!!

Janet

[johan555]

Posted on: 12:47 am, June 07, 2005

on the carlosandcharlies dot com webpage, in the Shout Only box, there is a shoutout from some detectiveghyno that states "look at the site of the old idian(sic) reservation"


The shout is clearly intended in context of the missing girl.


To be taken seriously? Maybe not, but noteworthy. Anyone familiar w/ an old indian reservation on the island?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
was this also a Shango message?

Maybe here

In 1499, the Spanish explorer, Alonso de Ojeda laid claim to the territory for Spain's Queen Isabella.  Legend has it that de Ojeda named Aruba Oro Hubo, meaning there is gold there.  However, the Spanish did not find the gold they sought, and because they found the climate too arid for cultivating crops, they made little use of the island.  For the next 150 years, Aruba became a retreat for pirates and buccaneers who preyed on the ships carrying Indian treasures back to the Old World.  The ruins of an old pirate castle still remains at Bushiribana, on the northeast coast of the island.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here are the ruins of the  old pirate castle  at Bushiribana,not far from Joran's place

I did some browsing through Aruban history and came up with the names Arikok Park and Tanki Flip as possible sites for old Indian villages.  I have no idea where on the island these places are located.

I found a reference to Balashi as the location where the gold was originally discovered - gold bricks?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tanki Flip is not far from Jorans House


zoooommm:

[Rob]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

Thank you SS, I thought it was your post and his reply. I wasn't sure who's post it was connected to. Thanks for clearing that all up.

One last question, ok? in the post that he refers to "Soph", does he address that 7 year relationship?

This is a huge issue in my opinion, and not to over dramatize it, but if Patrick has a 7 year relationship with the Sloots, it can only be one thing - collusion.

[Rob]

Janet, do I understand this right? Patrick was confronted with the fact that he has known the Van Der Sloots (I'm assuming this is an interpersonal relationship and not just knowing of them) for seven years and he didn't deny it?

That is my post and my confrontation.  You are correct and he did not deny knowing the Sloots or being former neighbors of the Kalpoes.  He focused instead on crime in the US v. Aruba, and I feel that he referred to us as racist because we would not have concern for a missing African-American girl.

Thank you SS.

Can you reveal your source to this info?  As Beth would say ... "Greta ... this is huge!"

Janet

I very carefully chose my words when I said that "I was  sincerely disappointed to learn that...".  You guys need to spend some more time over on the Shango threads.   CAPS gave us addresses from an Aruban directly where Patrick was living across the street from the Kalpoes.  He also told us that Patrick had known the Sloots for about 7 years. 

I must admit.. he did say that.