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Bearlyhere
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2008, 04:10:43 AM »

i don't think this should have a place in politics.

if politicians believe in the rapture myth and actively work towards such an event it is very dangerous.
combine that with an iranian leader who says all sorts of crazy things and believes in the return of the mahdi.

religion has no place in politics whatsoever.
keep that to everyones private lives.

Separation of church and state.

However, if it is part of one's belief system, then it's like psychological behavior that one would base their opinions and/or choices upon. Thus, abortion, I'm sure comes from their religious beliefs perhaps cuz I don't know that male politicians base their opinions of choice on personal experiences, they can't so where else would they get their decisions to be yah or nay for abortion do you think?







Doctors and others who work in the NICU would have the experience of seeing how hard that tiny human fights to stay alive.  They could witness this first hand.
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2008, 10:53:20 AM »

i don't think this should have a place in politics.

if politicians believe in the rapture myth and actively work towards such an event it is very dangerous.
combine that with an iranian leader who says all sorts of crazy things and believes in the return of the mahdi.

religion has no place in politics whatsoever.
keep that to everyones private lives.

Rapture?  What exactly does that mean?  The end of life and civilization as we know it today? 

How many survivalist types exist today?  I think they exist world wide.  Planning to survive the biggest ecological or human made war ever.  Dig little holes in the ground and stock up.  Open the door and what is left to live for?

Do humans (as a group) actively work to maintain the earth and her people in good shape?  Keep the planet on course for a sustainable future?  Or, do they think only of themselves?  Make laws to allow all kinds of devastation?

The end time theories exist without God or any religion.  jmho

If everyone stopped pointing the finger at others, and started with themselves, the world would be a better place.  imho

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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2008, 12:15:48 PM »


Rapture?  What exactly does that mean?  The end of life and civilization as we know it today? 

How many survivalist types exist today?  I think they exist world wide.  Planning to survive the biggest ecological or human made war ever.  Dig little holes in the ground and stock up.  Open the door and what is left to live for?

Do humans (as a group) actively work to maintain the earth and her people in good shape?  Keep the planet on course for a sustainable future? Or, do they think only of themselves?  Make laws to allow all kinds of devastation?

The end time theories exist without God or any religion.  jmho

If everyone stopped pointing the finger at others, and started with themselves, the world would be a better place.  imho



WhiskyGirl ... YES and YES!

Christians have been striving to reconcile the prophecies of the Bible ... especially Revelations ... with the usering in of the Anti-Christ and the return of Christ for his Church in relation to current world events since Biblical times.  This wannabe detective ... has got caught up with speculation also.  I have chosen not to go there any more.

Scripture is very clear that these two happenings are a given but ... it is also very clear that the timing of these two events ... only GOD who is author of EVERYTHING is privy to this knowledge.

The Scriptures imply that when Christ returns for his Church ... it will be sudden and ... His people will be going about their normal everyday tasks.

The end times may be now but ... they many not.  Therefore it is the responsibility of those who call upon the name of Christ to be prepared for his Coming but ... in the meantimes ... adhere and uphold God's commandments ... principle and values ... every day.

Whiskeygirl ... I am prepared if Christ should return today or ... I am called but ... I live a life that is fully aware the my grandchildren's children's children are the inheritants of this earth which God Himself made in the six days of creation.

Janet

+++++++++++++

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ...


Matthew 24

35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37.  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
crazybabyborg
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2008, 12:59:08 PM »

Well said and referenced, Tamik!

Great question, WhiskeyGirl!

 


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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 01:10:12 PM »

Hi cbb

I do believe that some Monkeys who read this thread will be look at their calendar ... thinking it must be Sunday.

 

It is not a holiday in Canada today ... work/school as usual for everybody in my family ... everybody but me.  Even "retired" hubby was called into work.

I do believe begin my Spring cleaning ... maybe doing a "clean sweep" as grown kids have suggested.  They have selfish motives ... they they do want to have to do it when their Dad and I are pushing up daisies.

 

Have a good day.

Janet

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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 05:44:30 PM »


Rapture?  What exactly does that mean?  The end of life and civilization as we know it today? 

How many survivalist types exist today?  I think they exist world wide.  Planning to survive the biggest ecological or human made war ever.  Dig little holes in the ground and stock up.  Open the door and what is left to live for?

Do humans (as a group) actively work to maintain the earth and her people in good shape?  Keep the planet on course for a sustainable future? Or, do they think only of themselves?  Make laws to allow all kinds of devastation?

The end time theories exist without God or any religion.  jmho

If everyone stopped pointing the finger at others, and started with themselves, the world would be a better place.  imho



WhiskyGirl ... YES and YES!

Christians have been striving to reconcile the prophecies of the Bible ... especially Revelations ... with the usering in of the Anti-Christ and the return of Christ for his Church in relation to current world events since Biblical times.  This wannabe detective ... has got caught up with speculation also.  I have chosen not to go there any more.

Scripture is very clear that these two happenings are a given but ... it is also very clear that the timing of these two events ... only GOD who is author of EVERYTHING is privy to this knowledge.

The Scriptures imply that when Christ returns for his Church ... it will be sudden and ... His people will be going about their normal everyday tasks.

The end times may be now but ... they many not.  Therefore it is the responsibility of those who call upon the name of Christ to be prepared for his Coming but ... in the meantimes ... adhere and uphold God's commandments ... principle and values ... every day.

Whiskeygirl ... I am prepared if Christ should return today or ... I am called but ... I live a life that is fully aware the my grandchildren's children's children are the inheritants of this earth which God Himself made in the six days of creation.

Janet

+++++++++++++

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ...


Matthew 24

35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37.  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Reminds me of this by Josh Turner "Long Black Train" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gybGXnciig
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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 05:53:49 PM »

i don't think this should have a place in politics.

if politicians believe in the rapture myth and actively work towards such an event it is very dangerous.
combine that with an iranian leader who says all sorts of crazy things and believes in the return of the mahdi.

religion has no place in politics whatsoever.
keep that to everyones private lives.

Separation of church and state.

However, if it is part of one's belief system, then it's like psychological behavior that one would base their opinions and/or choices upon. Thus, abortion, I'm sure comes from their religious beliefs perhaps cuz I don't know that male politicians base their opinions of choice on personal experiences, they can't so where else would they get their decisions to be yah or nay for abortion do you think?


Doctors and others who work in the NICU would have the experience of seeing how hard that tiny human fights to stay alive.  They could witness this first hand.

Bearlyhere ... I agree that a visit to the NICU at the local hospital to observe what many disregard ... while still in the womb ... as "products of conception" is a valued education for those are not informed.  It does not take a degree in theology or medicine to arrive at a conclusion when life begins.
 
A woman/girl who finds herself in a desperate situation because of an unplanned pregnancy must be embraced with love ... must be  provide with alternatives ... alternatives which do not end the life of her precious baby.  Out of desperation ... she must be encouraged from making a decision she may immediately regret or ... in time when looking back.

In my past volunteer work with young mothers who made the decision to follow through with their pregnancies ... not one mom  ever indicated that she regretted that she had not kept to her original plan to have an abortion.

Janet

+++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008


Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html


TRANSCRIPT: OBAMA ON ‘FNS’
by FOXNews.com
Sunday, April 27, 2008


On partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/27/transcript-obama-on-fns/
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2008, 06:02:19 PM »


Rapture?  What exactly does that mean?  The end of life and civilization as we know it today? 

How many survivalist types exist today?  I think they exist world wide.  Planning to survive the biggest ecological or human made war ever.  Dig little holes in the ground and stock up.  Open the door and what is left to live for?

Do humans (as a group) actively work to maintain the earth and her people in good shape?  Keep the planet on course for a sustainable future? Or, do they think only of themselves?  Make laws to allow all kinds of devastation?

The end time theories exist without God or any religion.  jmho

If everyone stopped pointing the finger at others, and started with themselves, the world would be a better place.  imho



WhiskyGirl ... YES and YES!

Christians have been striving to reconcile the prophecies of the Bible ... especially Revelations ... with the usering in of the Anti-Christ and the return of Christ for his Church in relation to current world events since Biblical times.  This wannabe detective ... has got caught up with speculation also.  I have chosen not to go there any more.

Scripture is very clear that these two happenings are a given but ... it is also very clear that the timing of these two events ... only GOD who is author of EVERYTHING is privy to this knowledge.

The Scriptures imply that when Christ returns for his Church ... it will be sudden and ... His people will be going about their normal everyday tasks.

The end times may be now but ... they many not.  Therefore it is the responsibility of those who call upon the name of Christ to be prepared for his Coming but ... in the meantimes ... adhere and uphold God's commandments ... principle and values ... every day.

Whiskeygirl ... I am prepared if Christ should return today or ... I am called but ... I live a life that is fully aware the my grandchildren's children's children are the inheritants of this earth which God Himself made in the six days of creation.

Janet

+++++++++++++

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ...


Matthew 24

35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37.  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Reminds me of this by Josh Turner "Long Black Train" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gybGXnciig

I fail to make the connection but ... on its own ... I appreciated the message that John Turner was attempting to convey his listeners.

Thank you WhiskeyGirl

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
crazybabyborg
Guest
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 08:02:08 PM »

Hi cbb

I do believe that some Monkeys who read this thread will be look at their calendar ... thinking it must be Sunday.

 

It is not a holiday in Canada today ... work/school as usual for everybody in my family ... everybody but me.  Even "retired" hubby was called into work.

I do believe begin my Spring cleaning ... maybe doing a "clean sweep" as grown kids have suggested.  They have selfish motives ... they they do want to have to do it when their Dad and I are pushing up daisies.

 

Have a good day.

Janet



  Maybe your church, Tamik! Mine never ever approaches the topic. Many years ago, after I had begun really studying the Bible both in and out of college, I was astounded at the Old and New Testament prophecies around "The Day Of The Lord". I went to my Sunday School teacher, who was the wife of the Pastor and a really fine teacher, and asked if she would consider doing a series of such prophecies. She declined, saying that it would serve no purpose other than to divide and confuse people. She pointed out that those prophecies had no bearing on Salvation and if she could facilitate that for others, she would be quite happy. 
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2008, 08:48:38 PM »

cbb ... very much like your church ... the two churches that hubby I have attended over our almost 43 year marriage are very conservative regarding the issue encompassing the end times ... the ushering in of the Anti-Christ.  Messages from the pulpit and Bible Studies have revolved around the question of whether the church will be raptured before, during or ... following the tribulation.  However ... no particular view is promoted.

Like you ... most of the indepth research on this topic has been conducted completely on my own.

It is ironic ... considering their background ... that all three of my grown kids and their spouses are into the end time prophecies.  My eldest son and wife are REALLY into it.  There is NOTHING they do not know about worldwide politics.  I tend to think that the ministry at their church is so obsessed with the topic ... that other areas are neglected.  However ... I am not complaining ... this is the son who humbled us in his late teens and early twenties.  Ten years ago he rededicated his life to God.  D. is a hard worker ... he loves his wife ... he is a great father and ... hubby and I have very close relationship with him.

Hey ... maybe after I have read the book Dead Heat by Joel Rosenberg which I received for Mother's day ... I may be inspired to again take up an real interest.  I am planning on reading it while on our boat during the summer.

Right now ... the focus of my time in regards to a personal interest is the Natalee Holloway case.

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Kermit
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2008, 10:56:13 PM »

Ezekiel: 38-39 details the battle in the bible in the last days

Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first and that man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

(The Rapture happens first then the Anti Christ

then the chapter goes on to explain how He that restrains will be taken out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed (lawless one being the Anti Christ)



That's the verse I was thinking of while reading these posts, Kermit! I've always found it interesting that before John was given the Revelation of "those things to come" in Revelation, he was "called up" with the voice of a trumpet. Many people feel that is also an indication that the Church will be removed before the tribulation period, especially coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 :

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Revelation 4:1-2
After this, I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the voice which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come hither, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven with one seated on the throne!


crazybaby,

I agree. But isn't there another perception that the church will not be called up until after the Anti-Christ is revealed and then peace for 3 years and then the rapture?

I'm not sure in the bible where it states that though.





Yes, Kermit, there is. The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible at all and everything about the timing is all conjecture. The verses above are often cited to support the opinion of a pre-tribulation rapture. My own opinion (and I would never argue the point, primarily because the Bible is not specific in the timing and therefore I'm not absolutely confident about it), is that it will occur before the 7 year tribulation, and maybe even mark the onset.

Let me say this: I think the topic of Rapture is interesting and I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone of a thing. There is nothing in the timing that contradicts anyone elses belief, and whatever God's plan is, I've never found anything in scripture that would impact His purpose by taking believers out either before or at the mid point. It's just interesting and I don't mean to stir up controversy or offend anyone. It's just my opinion, and contribution to a lively discussion.

Having said that, I will say that part of the reason I lean toward a pre-tribulation rapture is found in 2Thessalonians 2:7-8:

7.For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8.And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I believe the restrainer of "the spirit of lawlessness" is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit resides in believers. In order for the Holy Spirit to be taken out of the way as a restrainer, believers would have to be removed. It also makes sense to me that, anti-christ will be so "Christ-like" during the first 3 1/2 years that it will take the Holy Spirit's discernment to tell the difference. I'm not sure he could rise to such heights as to accomplish peace in the Middle East and rebuild the Jewish Temple to boot with studied believers watching. The first half of Tribulation will be a time of great peace and security, brought by antichrist.

Another thing that I find compelling is the seven feasts God directed Israel to observe in Leviticus 23 and 24. There is a remarkable foreshadowing in them. Briefly, here's the comparison:

1. The Feast of Passover (Blood covering the door causing death to "pass over") foreshadowing Christ’s crucifixion.

2. The seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, symbolizing the partaking of our sinless savior's body, that is, receiving the bread of life.

3. The Feast of First Fruits celebrating Christ’s resurrection (which also includes us).

4. The Feast of Pentecost: To be celebrated 50 days after the Feast of First Fruits. The time period is identical to that from Christ’s resurrection to the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given. (Christ had appeared to His followers over a period of 40 days; and upon being ascended, He asked the disciples to wait (an additional 10 days as it turned out.)

5. The Feast of the Trumpets: This was the harvest-time feast held in the seventh month, when Israel looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and presents a picture of our being gathered to Him in the rapture.

6. The Day of Atonement pointing to the tribulation, the day of Jacob's trouble when after so much suffering they shall recognize Him whom they have pierced.

7. The Feast of the Tabernacles corresponding to the millennium when Israel would celebrate the Messiah.

The first four feasts have been fulfilled. The next is the feast of trumpets. The "calling up" of believers is associated with the sound of trumpets.

Anyway, like I said, it's an interesting topic and I can enjoy discussing it, but the timing isn't one of those things that I'd defend. There are those who believe that rapture will happen at the point that antichrist is suddenly rejected by the Jews for defiling the temple:

(Matthew 24:15).
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

Daniel 9:27:
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Daniel 11:31
31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
 
Certainly the Bible teaches that Salvation will be "of the Jews" in those days. This event occurs at the the midpoint of the 7 years, and I am certain that rapture occurs then if not before. Jews will be the ones that discern truth. The abomination in their temple by antichrist will be measured against their scripture. The Jews have the Knowledge of God and through their faith and heroism, there will be many tribulation Saints!
 

Sorry for the sermon! As I said, it's my opinion only and not meant to stir up controversy or discontent.



I actually understand what you explained. It makes sense. I thought it meant that when the anti-christ was here and he was holding it back. It makes more sense the way you explained it.

What never made sense to me was, if we are raptured, then why should we worry about the horrible things said to happen in Revelations since we won't be here.



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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2008, 11:01:32 PM »

   Isn't Murder against the law in this country!!! Or does the law just protect "Big People"  and not little babies!!!

And that is the debate when it comes to abortion - when is it considered murder


 
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2008, 01:43:09 AM »

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=obama+anti-christ&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=
there are over a million results on google search.

if people really think this, it is not a very good anti-christ this one
because i thought the myth is that the anti-christ would rise without anyone noticing it.

for every world leader there is at least someone who thinks that it is the anti-christ.
even of the pope some think it. 
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2008, 01:54:59 AM »

   Isn't Murder against the law in this country!!! Or does the law just protect "Big People"  and not little babies!!!

And that is the debate when it comes to abortion - when is it considered murder


I do believe that a visit to the NICU at the local hospital to observe what many disregard ... while still in the womb ... as "products of conception" would be a valued education for those are not informed.  It does not take a degree in theology or medicine to arrive at a conclusion when life begins.
 
Janet

+++++++++

Obama's Abortion Extremism
Wednesday, April 2, 2008


Obama has not made abortion rights the shouted refrain of his campaign, as other Democrats have done. He seems to realize that pro-choice enthusiasm is inconsistent with a reputation for post-partisanship.

But Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Kermit
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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2008, 06:56:40 PM »

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=obama+anti-christ&btnG=Google+zoeken&meta=
there are over a million results on google search.

if people really think this, it is not a very good anti-christ this one
because i thought the myth is that the anti-christ would rise without anyone noticing it.

for every world leader there is at least someone who thinks that it is the anti-christ.
even of the pope some think it. 

LOL I remember some people thought Bill Clinton was the anti-christ.

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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 12:32:59 AM »

59.  Steve Holloway on May 31st, 2008 6:09 pm
 
Thanks you for the letter and the show of support. God bless everyone of you. God has a plan for each one of us and wants us to listen to Him for what it is. He loves us greatly, more than we can understand. Jesus the Son of God shown so much love for us that He died in our place. Sin brings death and eternal separation from God. Now!! we can be heard in the throne room of Heaven with our prayers. (Lord God bring a close to this soon)

Have I sinned concerning what they did to Natalee…You bet. I have to ask forgiveness for sins and at the same time and just as hard, to forgive the one’s that made this happen. Its all in GOD’s hands and He will bring justice in His timing.

Christ’s return is not far away….(I don’t know when) but the signs are becoming clearer. We are told to watch for His comming. When He comes, Natalee will be with Him and the other saints in His Glory. The dead in Christ will rise first and we that are living will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. Yes this is from the bible. We will have a big (get together) in Heaven. Who doesn’t like a banquet with the people you love!

If this life is all we have…then we are doomed. Why live it? I will tell you why..to give glory to God, to do His (will) while on earth. TO help each other, just as all of you HAVE by supporting our family in this terrible time of our life. The devil gave us a black eye, but we have hope…WE WILL live life the way GOD would have us to live. To love people when we don’t want too. To give of our self’s and forgive each other.

Just one more thing and I will stop preaching. Pick up a bible and read in the new testament the book of John. Its all about God and who He is. Just do that for me. If it changed your mind…let me know, because I don’t want anyone that has shown so much love to our family to perish. Thank you for listening with all of my heart. Steve Holloway

msn hotmail……lookingfornatalee@hotmail.com

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/05/30/dear-friends-in-aruba-natalee-holloway-missing-3-years/#comments
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
crazybabyborg
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2008, 01:23:47 AM »

Kermit Wrote:
I actually understand what you explained. It makes sense. I thought it meant that when the anti-christ was here and he was holding it back. It makes more sense the way you explained it.

What never made sense to me was, if we are raptured, then why should we worry about the horrible things said to happen in Revelations since we won't be here.

*********************************************************

I don't think we are to worry about it, and it's part of the reason that I find it "interesting discussion" but that's it. On the other hand, a study of creation, or the Exodus, the flood, etc. has been important for me in my growth of understanding the nature of God as it applies to my personal walk of Faith. There is value in knowledge of prophecy for that reason, but there are lots of folks who focus in on "Tribulation" for their own purposes. My Sunday School teacher was right on that score: having no knowledge at all about that period of time has no impact on our decisions today concerning our own Salvation. As a matter of fact, Revelation is the only book in the Bible that specifically states it is written "for believers".

Revelation 1:1:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

That would indicate, to me, that Revelation is not a starting point for anyone who is beginning to search for meaning or who has not already come to belief in Jesus. Revelation depicts a time of accelerated "Supernatural" activity, both good and evil, as God's plan to restore His original intent for man to the state it was in Eden, culminates. It's a time forcing choice. Before sin, God and man had such a close, loving relationship that they walked together and easily shared each others company. After sin, (and the tree was there so man could choose. There is no love without choice) death became a reality and immediately you see sin at work in the shame of nakedness, fear, and blaming of Eve by Adam.  God put His plan in place right then. God covered their nakedness with animal skin (the first death) and blood for atonement of, or covering of, sin came into the world. God would offer His own Son to be born and as a man, He lived a sinless life (unblemished) and as Sin came into the world through the man of Adam, so would the blood of Christ take it away for anyone who chooses to accept God's grace offered through Him.  He maintained choice in that plan, but provided a way. Tribulation is a step toward completion of that reconciliation of man to God and the circumstances of that time will compel those who are here to choose or reject Him. Actually, according to scripture, the 7 years referred to as "tribulation" is not the end of the world. There will be those who, in their own natural lifetime, will live through the 7 years and see the 2nd coming. They will live their life out, marry, and have children after Christ has returned and they too, will be tempted by evil (choice is central to the nature of a loving and just God). "Armageddon" will occur as the pre-finale to this world a thousand years after tribulation, and it will be replaced by a new world.

Genesis 3:8

 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."



Genesis 3:21
 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

Mat 18:11 
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.



The Bible is a book with the answers in the back! 

I believe in God's plan, as taught from Genesis through Revelation, but again, the timing of rapture is conjecture. If I find myself in those times, I'll be right here discussing it with all of you! 

« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 11:59:54 AM by crazybabyborg » Logged
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2008, 04:48:44 PM »

   Isn't Murder against the law in this country!!! Or does the law just protect "Big People"  and not little babies!!!

And that is the debate when it comes to abortion - when is it considered murder


Kermit ... until the the answer to your question can be conclusively determined ... I firmly believe that we have to err on the side of life.

As for me ... God says it; I believe it and ... that settles it.

Janet

+++++++

Psalm 139:14-16 (King James Version)

14. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2008, 05:08:49 PM »

Ezekiel: 38-39 details the battle in the bible in the last days

Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first and that man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

(The Rapture happens first then the Anti Christ

then the chapter goes on to explain how He that restrains will be taken out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed (lawless one being the Anti Christ)



That's the verse I was thinking of while reading these posts, Kermit! I've always found it interesting that before John was given the Revelation of "those things to come" in Revelation, he was "called up" with the voice of a trumpet. Many people feel that is also an indication that the Church will be removed before the tribulation period, especially coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 :

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Revelation 4:1-2
After this, I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the voice which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come hither, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven with one seated on the throne!


crazybaby,

I agree. But isn't there another perception that the church will not be called up until after the Anti-Christ is revealed and then peace for 3 years and then the rapture?

I'm not sure in the bible where it states that though.





Yes, Kermit, there is. The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible at all and everything about the timing is all conjecture. The verses above are often cited to support the opinion of a pre-tribulation rapture. My own opinion (and I would never argue the point, primarily because the Bible is not specific in the timing and therefore I'm not absolutely confident about it), is that it will occur before the 7 year tribulation, and maybe even mark the onset.

Let me say this: I think the topic of Rapture is interesting and I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone of a thing. There is nothing in the timing that contradicts anyone elses belief, and whatever God's plan is, I've never found anything in scripture that would impact His purpose by taking believers out either before or at the mid point. It's just interesting and I don't mean to stir up controversy or offend anyone. It's just my opinion, and contribution to a lively discussion.

Having said that, I will say that part of the reason I lean toward a pre-tribulation rapture is found in 2Thessalonians 2:7-8:

7.For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8.And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I believe the restrainer of "the spirit of lawlessness" is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit resides in believers. In order for the Holy Spirit to be taken out of the way as a restrainer, believers would have to be removed. It also makes sense to me that, anti-christ will be so "Christ-like" during the first 3 1/2 years that it will take the Holy Spirit's discernment to tell the difference. I'm not sure he could rise to such heights as to accomplish peace in the Middle East and rebuild the Jewish Temple to boot with studied believers watching. The first half of Tribulation will be a time of great peace and security, brought by antichrist.

Another thing that I find compelling is the seven feasts God directed Israel to observe in Leviticus 23 and 24. There is a remarkable foreshadowing in them. Briefly, here's the comparison:

1. The Feast of Passover (Blood covering the door causing death to "pass over") foreshadowing Christ’s crucifixion.

2. The seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, symbolizing the partaking of our sinless savior's body, that is, receiving the bread of life.

3. The Feast of First Fruits celebrating Christ’s resurrection (which also includes us).

4. The Feast of Pentecost: To be celebrated 50 days after the Feast of First Fruits. The time period is identical to that from Christ’s resurrection to the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given. (Christ had appeared to His followers over a period of 40 days; and upon being ascended, He asked the disciples to wait (an additional 10 days as it turned out.)

5. The Feast of the Trumpets: This was the harvest-time feast held in the seventh month, when Israel looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and presents a picture of our being gathered to Him in the rapture.

6. The Day of Atonement pointing to the tribulation, the day of Jacob's trouble when after so much suffering they shall recognize Him whom they have pierced.

7. The Feast of the Tabernacles corresponding to the millennium when Israel would celebrate the Messiah.

The first four feasts have been fulfilled. The next is the feast of trumpets. The "calling up" of believers is associated with the sound of trumpets.

Anyway, like I said, it's an interesting topic and I can enjoy discussing it, but the timing isn't one of those things that I'd defend. There are those who believe that rapture will happen at the point that antichrist is suddenly rejected by the Jews for defiling the temple:

(Matthew 24:15).
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

Daniel 9:27:
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Daniel 11:31
31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
 
Certainly the Bible teaches that Salvation will be "of the Jews" in those days. This event occurs at the the midpoint of the 7 years, and I am certain that rapture occurs then if not before. Jews will be the ones that discern truth. The abomination in their temple by antichrist will be measured against their scripture. The Jews have the Knowledge of God and through their faith and heroism, there will be many tribulation Saints!
 

Sorry for the sermon! As I said, it's my opinion only and not meant to stir up controversy or discontent.



I actually understand what you explained. It makes sense. I thought it meant that when the anti-christ was here and he was holding it back. It makes more sense the way you explained it.

What never made sense to me was, if we are raptured, then why should we worry about the horrible things said to happen in Revelations since we won't be here.

Kermit ... I believe that the church will be raptured prior to the tribulation but following the short period of calm under the rule of the anti-Christ.  However ... there are other viewpoints that have valid backup.  One being the the church will go through the Tribulation which implies that a strong foundation of faith will be required so not to weaken and ... aligned oneself with the anti-Christ.  Nevertheless ... it will do not good to worry ... just put on the strong armour of faith.




Christians have been striving to reconcile the prophecies of the Bible ... especially Revelations ... with the usering in of the Anti-Christ and the return of Christ for his Church in relation to current world events since Biblical times.  This wannabe detective ... has got caught up with speculation also.  I have chosen not to go there any more.

Scripture is very clear that these two happenings are a given but ... it is also very clear that the timing of these two events ... only GOD who is author of EVERYTHING is privy to this knowledge.

The Scriptures imply that when Christ returns for his Church ... it will be sudden and ... His people will be going about their normal everyday tasks.

The end times may be now but ... they many not.  Therefore it is the responsibility of those who call upon the name of Christ to be prepared for his Coming but ... in the meantimes ... adhere and uphold God's commandments ... principle and values ... every day.

I am prepared if Christ should return today or ... I am called first  but ... I live a life that is fully aware if the Lord should tary ... my grandchildren's children's children may  be the inheritants of this earth which God Himself made in the six days of creation.  In the six days of creation God created a man and a woman and ... assigned them to be stewards of the earth.

Janet

+++++++++++++

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ...


Matthew 24

35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37.  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
 
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Dihannah1
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God watch over our children and keep them safe.


« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2008, 05:42:58 PM »

Ok, now you've peaked my interest in this book Janet.  I too am fascinated by the 'End of Times' revelations. I have read the entire Left Behind Series by pastors Tim F. LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.  Though they are obviously fiction, as it hasen't happened yet, but can give people a view of possibilities as they use many biblical references in it.  So I am going right now and ordering Dead Heat on Amazon.  I agree there is debate on tribulation timing and when it will occur, but the Left Behind series is an excellent read, even for those who may not believe in it.  It is action packed to keep readers attentions and I couldn't put them down! But again they reference the bible.  And in my mind, if it has a heartfelt impact just one non-christian to turn to the Lord, then it's worth it.

I am also a member at a forum, formally called Tribulation Forces, renamed The Bearean Watch, where daily commentary is posted of current events and there references to the Bible.  They also minister about salvation and the word of God.  They  are conservative and have many Bible references and teachings, that I find a great resource outside of the Bible, which is of course the ultimate resource.   But it's nice to just talk and fellowship from others across the world, aside from attending church.

I recommend the books and this website for those interested, especially LV.   I have some other forums that have members from all faiths, including Jews, which is interesting.   It can be more of a debate on different religion, rather than a resource.  But it is interesting and enlightening.

http://www.bereanwatchmen.com


I do appreciate all your thoughts and imput here.   It DOES impact politics, regardless of separation of church and state!   I too vote for those who are closest to my values and beliefs.  I believe that is why our country is going down hill, because of abandoning what our forefathers built this nation on.  It's all about me, me, me now.  I believe our forefathers are turning in there graves.   Barack is a  partial birth abortion advocate, what does that say if he is elected, among many other things.  They kill babies, who could survive if given birth early!  They suck out there brains and dispose of there bodies!  What in Gods name has come of this country, without him in it.   That's why America was so blessed in previous years.  Those blessings are becoming farther and farther between.  America needs to wake up!
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