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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5/15 - 5/20/08  (Read 283958 times)
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #320 on: May 17, 2008, 12:11:09 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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« Reply #321 on: May 17, 2008, 12:15:30 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet



Questioning his information...Yes
Calling him a liar...NO

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2NJSons_Mom
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« Reply #322 on: May 17, 2008, 12:16:30 PM »

Why is the NH thread turning into a thread about other posters?

I don't know why anyone, after all this time would take what anyone posts as gospel.

IMO, Caps and OE are perfectly capable of defending themselves.  Personally, I don't think either one of them are intentionally trying to mislead us in any way.




 
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wreck
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« Reply #323 on: May 17, 2008, 12:18:36 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
Janet, I still don't get what you are upset about Kyle and the pond search. All he said is that the pond hadn't been searched before. It wasn't -- where is the lie? He NEGLECTED to tell us that a witness directed them to the pond -- that is not a lie -- just an omission he didn't feel we needed to know.
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carpe noctem
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History repeats itself. It's a cyclical beast.


« Reply #324 on: May 17, 2008, 12:19:26 PM »

FOM ... IIRC Greta did say that she could have "crawled under the table" regarding Anita's words which decribed graphic sexual activity between Natalee and Joran.  I cannot recall Greta stating anything about "underwear".  I could be wrong.

However ... in LOVING NATALEE ... Beth reveal that in the Anita/Paulus encounter ... it was her that refers to the "underwear" issue as it pertains to Joran's declarations ... not Anita.

Janet



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Maybe Greta, is just a big SOOPA-FREAK, like that.
The kind you don't take home to MUDDA?

 -Rick James



j/k
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For Natalee and Stephany, whatever it takes.

-JUSTICE FOR NATALEE ANN - BOYCOTT ARUBA
------------------
"Don't talk about what you have done or what you are going to do." Thomas Jefferson
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."Thomas Jeff
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #325 on: May 17, 2008, 12:20:22 PM »

I want Anita's azz on a silver platter....For Gods' sake....she is a *mother*....NOT!

She is a social climbing...money grubbing...sack-o-chit...she knows what happened...she is as much of a sociopath as her sweaty running hubby and *spawn*....how in the hell could such a souless bag of water...tell Beth...to her face...what *underwear* Natalee was wearing that night....BECASE SHE *SAW* THEM....that's how...she saw them....a 17 year old boy does not tell his mother the description of the underwear of a girl he was with...it does NOT make sense...nope...it does not...
,

How was it that this came out?  About the underwear.  ....This alsways bothered me, too....and it was in the beginning...can someoone refresh me ..who did she say it to.....when..in what context....??
Wasn't it a tv interview?

TIA

FOM ... IIRC Greta did say that she could have "crawled under the table" regarding Anita's words which decribed graphic sexual activity between Natalee and Joran.  I cannot recall Greta stating anything about "underwear".  I could be wrong.

However ... in LOVING NATALEE ... Beth reveal that in the Anita/Paulus encounter ... it was her that refers to the "underwear" issue as it pertains to Joran's declarations ... not Anita.

Janet

+++++++++

Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE
Page 148/149


Anita tells us all about Joran and what a good boy he is.  How smart he is.  I let her go on and on, as this gives me time to listen, look, assess.  And as she continues, she begins to share with us what a difficult time they have had with him recently.  How he exibits oppositional defiance and is disrespectful to his mother.  How they are beginning to lose control of him as he sneaks out at night and comes and goes as he pleases.  After about thirty minutes she concludes by tell us Joran is seeing a psychologist for his definant behavior.

Now it's my turn.  I have no intention of matching her good-boy remarks with good-girl comments.  And cut to the chase.  Graphically repeating the very words said by their son a couple of weeks ago in his statements made on June 9, 10 and 13.  The vile account that was read to me in the attorney general's office.  The sexually explicit words used by Joran to describe what he did to Natalee.  Calmer than I have ever been in my whole life and without blinking, I tell them which fingers he said he used.  Where he said he put them.  How their son described my daughter's pubic area, her underwear.  How Joran said she was falling asleep and waking up, falling asleep and waking up.  I tell them of his conflicting stories of what happened, the different places he said it happened.  Little bead of sweat form across Paulus' brow and forehead.


From Van Susteren/Holloway interview (Oct. 4, 2007) On the Record:

 
Greta: How about Anita, the mother of Joran, that day, what did you think of her?

Beth: She doesn't have any idea.

Greta: You know, from my perspective she wept, she sat and wept the whole time, and Paulus perspired profusely, and that stood out, and you were just quietly listening to Anita and you were sort of stoic, and said yes, and sort of consoled her, and I need information about my daughter you didn't break stride.

Beth: Well, I certainly was not going to match her good boy remarks with my good girl remarks. I thought... let her vent let, her have the floor as long as she needed to, she talked for 20 or 30 minutes... no point for me trying to as I said match her remarks with good girl remarks with her good boy remarks about Joran.

Greta: And there is one point she was quite graphic about what her son, and his relationship with your daughter and frankly I wanted to crawl under the table it got so graphic as she discussed sexual acts and I was sitting there almost like a voyeur and that didn't... and I sort of sneaked a look at you and you didn't break stride.

Beth: Parents... parents will do anything and I think parents were so desperate for a resolution were... desperate for someone just to come forward with the truth. And would have and will still do anything.

Greta: Not to push your buttons but when she was talking about the sex stuff ...and I would have.. that didn't, like I would, I felt so uncomfortable ... you didn't feel uncomfortable?

Beth: No. I just wanted to get to the bottom ...
 


Pita

THANK YOU!  THANK YOU!

I have been search for that transcript forever.

Do you happen to have the link?

Again ... THANK YOU!

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Lala'sMom
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« Reply #326 on: May 17, 2008, 12:23:11 PM »

Now, everyone understands why I don't ask any more questions in the Shango thread.  Everything is misinterpreted as an attack on the individual poster.  I don't think that is the case.  It seems perfectly acceptable to ask questions of those that disagree with us, but not when we see something that we know is not true and simply point that out.  Everyone observes things differently...I have had my share of hair pulling in the Shango thread as well as over here. 

We are all here for one reason...to find Natalee and bring her home. I think we get frustrated and start to pick at each other the way siblings do from time to time. I don't react well to not having my questions answered because I love those clean lines that BB says in her sig line always blur with time.  I would like to see all the info everyone has to be laid out on the table and the chaff separated from the wheat..but that won't happen.  I do think there are things known at this time that are being held close to the vest in many ways.  I am hoping the things in the works now will prove to be the answers.

As I told Caps one time...I have major trust issues with Aruba and it's people.  That is my problem and that is why I am skeptical of anyone that claims one thing and never follows up...having said that...I have done that myself because I may have said too much at the time. It's that element of pinning down the truth that gets us all so upset since truth is hard to come by in this case. I don't know who to trust and therefore the questions come.  Maybe that is my way of determining if I can believe what I am hearing...I don't know. Imagine the family's frustration.  Yes, there are still good people in Aruba, but they are few and far between IMO.  Proof is Anita and her art exhibits...the family that has ruined so many lives is allowed to continue to flourish and thrive in spite of everything with no accountably whatsoever. 

Just because someone says it's so...does not make it so unless you can back it up with proof.  Just like Rob has questions...so do I.  I really don't think anyone has intended to appear to question anyone's integrity that comes here, but you have to admit there have been many, many posters that have ultimately turned out to be part of the problem.  I think a little more patience would be in order at this time. Time will tell who is who and who can be trusted and who can not.  Until then, we have to trust that God is in control and knows what he's doing. 

My rant and my opinion...so flame away if so desired. 
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AZSunny
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« Reply #327 on: May 17, 2008, 12:24:13 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.
If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet



Questioning his information...Yes
Calling him a liar...NO



Janet,

I think the difference with your approach is the demand for information, rather than a request for information.  No one owes you or any of us the information. We are just fortunate that they chose to provide what they do, when they can, and then it is up to us to accept or not accept the information.  The demand to 'prove it' isn't going to get any of us any where. 
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #328 on: May 17, 2008, 12:25:13 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
Janet, I still don't get what you are upset about Kyle and the pond search. All he said is that the pond hadn't been searched before. It wasn't -- where is the lie? He NEGLECTED to tell us that a witness directed them to the pond -- that is not a lie -- just an omission he didn't feel we needed to know.

The witness did not direct them to that pond...it was a tip that lead them there. The witness is not the person that lead them to that pond...trust me on this one.
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wreck
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« Reply #329 on: May 17, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »

I think posters like Caps and OE come off as being "difficult" because they do not "spit it out." Well, I assume they are being "cryptic" for a reason. They can put us on the right path -- but can't come right out and say it because they have to protect their own sources and not hinder those that are investigating.
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wreck
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« Reply #330 on: May 17, 2008, 12:31:32 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
Janet, I still don't get what you are upset about Kyle and the pond search. All he said is that the pond hadn't been searched before. It wasn't -- where is the lie? He NEGLECTED to tell us that a witness directed them to the pond -- that is not a lie -- just an omission he didn't feel we needed to know.

The witness did not direct them to that pond...it was a tip that lead them there. The witness is not the person that lead them to that pond...trust me on this one.
Okay, wrong word  -- I should have said "tipster" instead of "witness" -- my point is the same.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #331 on: May 17, 2008, 12:34:00 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
Janet, I still don't get what you are upset about Kyle and the pond search. All he said is that the pond hadn't been searched before. It wasn't -- where is the lie? He NEGLECTED to tell us that a witness directed them to the pond -- that is not a lie -- just an omission he didn't feel we needed to know.

The witness did not direct them to that pond...it was a tip that lead them there. The witness is not the person that lead them to that pond...trust me on this one.

Agreed...sorry there is my stickler for detail trait coming to the surface again.
Okay, wrong word  -- I should have said "tipster" instead of "witness" -- my point is the same.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #332 on: May 17, 2008, 12:37:18 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.

If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet
Janet, I still don't get what you are upset about Kyle and the pond search. All he said is that the pond hadn't been searched before. It wasn't -- where is the lie? He NEGLECTED to tell us that a witness directed them to the pond -- that is not a lie -- just an omission he didn't feel we needed to know.

The witness did not direct them to that pond...it was a tip that lead them there. The witness is not the person that lead them to that pond...trust me on this one.


Okay, wrong word  -- I should have said "tipster" instead of "witness" -- my point is the same.


OOPS!  So sorry...don't slap my paws...please...my response should have been this...


Agreed...sorry there is my stickler for detail trait coming to the surface again.
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Magnolia
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« Reply #333 on: May 17, 2008, 12:37:38 PM »

I knew what you meant, Wreck. 
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« Reply #334 on: May 17, 2008, 12:40:15 PM »

Just wanted to thank Tamikosmom and Pita for posting the graphic info regarding Natalees assault, and how it was relayed to Beth, and responded to by Anita....so, anita never said she saw Natalees underwear...she is repeating what her son stated previously.  correct?  well someone will correct me if I am wrong, i am sure!
Thanks all 
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We have done this like 20 times before and never before did anything bad happen....JORAN
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #335 on: May 17, 2008, 12:42:36 PM »

I am not a politically correct person.  I want the truth.

SS ... if you cite CAPS in response to my request as to your source pertaining to a submission to Patrick's blog and ... then you can only produce back up that has already been proven to be incorrect ... I feel that I am allowed to question you and ... be provided with an explanation.
If ... two weeks later ... you are still upholding CAPS as the source of that submission ... I do not understand why you should get a free pass.

If Kyle states one specific reason for the search of the pond in February when no explanation was necessary and ... then states an entire different reason in May ... then I have every right to challenge Kyle and ... be provided with an explanation.

Janet



Questioning his information...Yes
Calling him a liar...NO



Janet,

I think the difference with your approach is the demand for information, rather than a request for information.  No one owes you or any of us the information. We are just fortunate that they chose to provide what they do, when they can, and then it is up to us to accept or not accept the information.  The demand to 'prove it' isn't going to get any of us any where. 

AZ ... I am sorry but ... I do demand the truth.  I HATE to be lied to.  However ... "Liar" is not a word in my vocabulary.

In regards to the pond search ... when there is one "specific" explanation from Kyle in February when no explanation is necessary and ... an entire different explanation in May ... the implication is that one explanation is not the truth.  In other words ... a lie.
 
I firmly believe that silence or "no comment" is where it is at if the truth cannot be revealed at a certain moment in time.

In my research ... I put a lot a weight in Kyle's words which he posts and responds.  There are enough inconsistencies/lies to contend with that came from the "other" side.

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
SS
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« Reply #336 on: May 17, 2008, 12:43:04 PM »

Now, everyone understands why I don't ask any more questions in the Shango thread.  Everything is misinterpreted as an attack on the individual poster.  I don't think that is the case.  It seems perfectly acceptable to ask questions of those that disagree with us, but not when we see something that we know is not true and simply point that out.  Everyone observes things differently...I have had my share of hair pulling in the Shango thread as well as over here. 

We are all here for one reason...to find Natalee and bring her home. I think we get frustrated and start to pick at each other the way siblings do from time to time. I don't react well to not having my questions answered because I love those clean lines that BB says in her sig line always blur with time.  I would like to see all the info everyone has to be laid out on the table and the chaff separated from the wheat..but that won't happen.  I do think there are things known at this time that are being held close to the vest in many ways.  I am hoping the things in the works now will prove to be the answers.

As I told Caps one time...I have major trust issues with Aruba and it's people.  That is my problem and that is why I am skeptical of anyone that claims one thing and never follows up...having said that...I have done that myself because I may have said too much at the time. It's that element of pinning down the truth that gets us all so upset since truth is hard to come by in this case. I don't know who to trust and therefore the questions come.  Maybe that is my way of determining if I can believe what I am hearing...I don't know. Imagine the family's frustration.  Yes, there are still good people in Aruba, but they are few and far between IMO.  Proof is Anita and her art exhibits...the family that has ruined so many lives is allowed to continue to flourish and thrive in spite of everything with no accountably whatsoever. 

Just because someone says it's so...does not make it so unless you can back it up with proof.  Just like Rob has questions...so do I.  I really don't think anyone has intended to appear to question anyone's integrity that comes here, but you have to admit there have been many, many posters that have ultimately turned out to be part of the problem.  I think a little more patience would be in order at this time. Time will tell who is who and who can be trusted and who can not.   Until then, we have to trust that God is in control and knows what he's doing. 

My rant and my opinion...so flame away if so desired. 


Thank you.  I agree with you.  Time will tell if we are being mislead.  In the meantime, we have some posters who appear to be trying to help us.  Abusing them will only make us look like complete jerks and it will ultimately drive those away who we need the most.  We all have our own interpretations, questions, and our own opinions of fact v. misinformation.  Attacking our helpful informants is not the answer.
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wreck
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« Reply #337 on: May 17, 2008, 12:47:10 PM »

I'm dumbfounded. I guess we all better get out our Bibles and swear an oath before every post.
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wreck
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« Reply #338 on: May 17, 2008, 12:47:42 PM »

"No comment"
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #339 on: May 17, 2008, 12:47:58 PM »

Just wanted to thank Tamikosmom and Pita for posting the graphic info regarding Natalees assault, and how it was relayed to Beth, and responded to by Anita....so, anita never said she saw Natalees underwear...she is repeating what her son stated previously.  correct?  well someone will correct me if I am wrong, i am sure!
Thanks all 

You are welcome FOM.

I am so thankful that this topic was brought up.  The transcript provided by Pita was a Godsend and ... so crucial in one aspect of something I am working on.

Your are correct ... the transcript as well LOVE NATALEE does not imply that Anita mentioned "underwear".

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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