Natalee Case Discussion #752 5/15 - 5/20/08

[Observer]

Hold it, who said the MOKO pond was being drained as well???

No one..I didn't write that clearly..lol The pond in Monserat is the only Pond I have heard that is being drained. Judging by how dry the bottom looks I do not think it was drained today,but in the last few days.IMO

[wreck]

Hold it, who said the MOKO pond was being drained as well???

No one..I didn't write that clearly..lol The pond in Monserat is the only Pond I have heard that is being drained. Judging by how dry the bottom looks I do not think it was drained today,but in the last few days.IMO

I was under the impression from Caps that the pond had been drained over a period of a few weeks.

[Observer]

I did see that and thought about that about a hour ago  However Maria is a very commen name in central and south america..lol..My sister in law's family from costa rica named all the girls  Maria   

Caps said he owed money and was killed by the Bifons..That appears to be unlikely as Tim told us last night he was saving his money for law school while he worked in the prison system. I am happy to see this Family reach out to TES and I can tell from the pictures they loved him dearly.

But...I got an email...that make them the same....I'll let you know tomorrow...

Now that would make things quite interesting if true!!!!! 

[Observer]

Hold it, who said the MOKO pond was being drained as well???

No one..I didn't write that clearly..lol The pond in Monserat is the only Pond I have heard that is being drained. Judging by how dry the bottom looks I do not think it was drained today,but in the last few days.IMO

I was under the impression from Caps that the pond had been drained over a period of a few weeks.

Ok thanks that would make sense then and also explain why they had it chained off. I remember Caps saying there was no activity there but it would only take a few to drain it and it wouldn't cause much attention.

[hotping]

So the pond that was called MOKO was the one that the locals ran TES out of when it was being searched back in 2005? Is that Correct? The pond that Des has the pictures of was also searched but nothing was found the first time...So what better place to hide something than a place that had already been searched.....Joran said in the confession tape IIRC "She will never be found".....

[Observer]

So the pond that was called MOKO was the one that the locals ran TES out of when it was being searched back in 2005? Is that Correct? The pond that Des has the pictures of was also searched but nothing was found the first time...So what better place to hide something than a place that had already been searched.....Joran said in the confession tape IIRC "She will never be found".....

Correct and I am not sure of the details of that Pond except they ruled it out apparently. It's where Joran dumped his dog that he killed before Natalee went to Aruba.

Joran also said he was lucky Natalee wasn't found. Which leads me to believe they were close and they already searched or were prevented from searching where she was in those early searches.

[texasmom]

So the pond that was called MOKO was the one that the locals ran TES out of when it was being searched back in 2005? Is that Correct? The pond that Des has the pictures of was also searched but nothing was found the first time...So what better place to hide something than a place that had already been searched.....Joran said in the confession tape IIRC "She will never be found".....

It is my understanding that the pond in Monserat (today's pics) was never searched at all before the side sonar scan in February. 

[Observer]

It is my understanding that the pond in Monserat (today's pics) was never searched at all before the side sonar scan in February. 

This is the second Pond they drained including the Pond by the Raquetball CLub in July/Aug 2005. We know they also searched the Pond by Jorans house in the beginning with Scuba Divers.OE said they searched this Pond because it was one of the last Ponds not to be cleared or searched and they had down time due to the conditions. You can judge for yourself if there was more to why they scanned this Pond before they left.

[texasmom]

I did see that and thought about that about a hour ago  However Maria is a very commen name in central and south america..lol..My sister in law's family from costa rica named all the girls  Maria   

Caps said he owed money and was killed by the Bifons..That appears to be unlikely as Tim told us last night he was saving his money for law school while he worked in the prison system. I am happy to see this Family reach out to TES and I can tell from the pictures they loved him dearly.

But...I got an email...that make them the same....I'll let you know tomorrow...

Now that would make things quite interesting if true!!!!! 

Yes, that would be quite interesting!

[hotping]

So the pond that was called MOKO was the one that the locals ran TES out of when it was being searched back in 2005? Is that Correct? The pond that Des has the pictures of was also searched but nothing was found the first time...So what better place to hide something than a place that had already been searched.....Joran said in the confession tape IIRC "She will never be found".....

Correct and I am not sure of the details of that Pond except they ruled it out apparently. It's where Joran dumped his dog that he killed before Natalee went to Aruba.

Joran also said he was lucky Natalee wasn't found. Which leads me to believe they were close and they already searched or were prevented from searching where she is right now.

Thanks OB....Really makes Me sad to think of what They did to Her....The Sorry SOB's 

[hotping]

So the pond that was called MOKO was the one that the locals ran TES out of when it was being searched back in 2005? Is that Correct? The pond that Des has the pictures of was also searched but nothing was found the first time...So what better place to hide something than a place that had already been searched.....Joran said in the confession tape IIRC "She will never be found".....

It is my understanding that the pond in Monserat (today's pics) was never searched at all before the side sonar scan in February. 

Thank TM!

[texasmom]

Thank TM!

You're welcome Hotping! 

[Observer]

Whats all this about?

Solo Di Pueblo 5/15/08

[texasmom]

Looks interesting....but I don't understand enough of it to even venture a guess...
come across.......

[Observer]

Looks interesting....but I don't understand enough of it to even venture a guess...
come across.......

I could guess but I'll pass on this one,,Good Night all..Come Across 

[johan555]

Comment by AmericaninAruba | June 13, 2005, 1:10 pm

Van der lsoot says to the security guard that was jailed “that they left him at his house with natalee still in the car he exchanged emails with her and they took off (leaving JOran at home). The story is somethign that the 3 boys made up at home by the pool” adn now other kids also said that on monday Joran walked out into the woods by the school and stayed a while…maybe that was the 2 boys teling him about the “story”to tell?? and also here on aruba it is known that the cousins of the 2 Kalpoe boys are “dangerous” people who knows if they have soemthign to do with this?? They own a car rental here and they say they moved to aruba because they were bad in suriname and apparently they are moving form aruba to the US now

[johan555]

Decoding Peter de Vries’ Report: The Truth Amidst Joran’s Lies

Dutch investigative reporter Peter de Vries intends to reveal via Dutch television station SBS 6 on Feb. 3 Joran van der Sloot’s supposed new confession apparently made while he was secretly caught on tape by a de Vries associate working under cover. On his Web site, de Vries claims, “Case Natalee Holloway—Solved.” Not so fast.

On Feb. 1, Fox News commentator Geraldo Rivera released an early summary of de Vries’ findings. While de Vries’ work is certainly important, judging from Geraldo’s report, the Dutchman has made a serious error in taking Joran’s confession at face value. Prosecutors are in the same danger. And his report could be confusing to the ocean search team now seeking Natalee’s remains off the coast of Aruba. We can avoid that confusion by carefully reading the valuable messages we’ll find by decoding Joran’s thoughtprints contained in de Vries’ secret recordings. In other words, amidst Joran’s unquestionable lies we will find the truth about what caused Natalee’s death and where her body was placed. This is reminiscent of Deepak Kalpoe’s invaluable email of June 4, 2005. There, amidst his cover-up story, he revealed the truth about their assault on Natalee and the disposition of her body, a truth which has been reiterated by all three suspects between the lines of the falsehoods uttered during police interviews.


Now let’s consider de Vries’ so-called revelation. Supposedly, a “new friend” of Joran’s was secretly a plant who used a wire and a secret camera to eventually capture Joran on tape admitting his involvement in Natalee’s death. Joran told this man that while having sex with Natalee on the beach—completely voluntary on her part—that suddenly she suffered a cardiac arrest and died. Joran also reportedly said that Natalee had used drugs that night and implied the cardiac arrest occurred due to the drugs. At that point, he swims the body out into the ocean at a particular place and releases her, knowing that she will either wash up or be taken out to sea and be devoured by various predators.


Don’t believe for a minute that Joran is telling us the whole truth. He has previously confessed to various parts of the same story, always gradually giving up bits and pieces of the story on the surface. For example, he first reported sexual contact with Natalee in the backseat of Deepak’s Honda which he later changed to consensual sexual contact with her on the beach but no intercourse. He said he left her alone on the beach. Now he has progressed to saying he had intercourse with her and she died.


We know that in “confessions” to friends, family and fellow inmates, criminals routinely tell only part of the truth. Notice particularly how this new “confession” continues to favor Joran—the sex was voluntary and Natalee basically died as a result of her own decision to use drugs. Above all, he remains as innocent and lily-white as the driven snow—except of course for his decision to dispose of the body. We can remain sure of one clear fact—Joran is basically an inveterate liar, except that his deeper mind is indeed telling us the secret truth. Joran again confirms the same story that all three suspects have repeatedly told between the lines.


Now we glean the truth again by decoding Joran’s new confession.

1—Clearly he confirms that Natalee died during sexual intercourse. This matches my thoughtprint profile of Deepak’s June 4, 2005 email which showed she died in the midst of a brutal gang rape committed by the three suspects.


2—Joran confirms that Natalee died suddenly and fell unconscious due to a cardiac event. This indeed matches how Natalee suddenly died after aspirating and choking during the rape while accidentally being prevented from vomiting. Indeed Natalee suddenly quit breathing and her heart suddenly stopped beating as a result.


3—Joran confirms that drugs contributed to Natalee’s death. This matches the truth of the matter in that alcohol (which of course is a drug) and likely Ecstasy slipped into her drink contributed to her nausea which was exacerbated by the emotional trauma of the rape (vomiting is actually a rather common event during rapes). Joran and his pals had routinely utilized alcohol and drugs to get girls to go along with their late-night plans.


4—Joran confirms that they indeed disposed of her body in the ocean after transporting her some distance out. Certainly the thoughtprint profile (revealed in my book, “Into The Deep”) confirms that the suspects sailed the corpse out into the ocean by boat whereupon they dumped it.


5—Joran confirms that the body is not far out into the ocean. This matches the thoughtprint profile where Deepak makes plain that Natalee’s body is discoverable.


6—Joran confirms that the take-off point from which the suspects launched the boat with Natalee’s dead body aboard was almost certainly Fisherman’s Huts (see below). This is confirmed by his admission that he was on the beach with Natalee when she died. (Already he has depicted himself with Natalee on the beach near Fisherman’s Huts and may do so again in the de Vries tapes.) In his tape-recorded confession Joran likely will try to describe a different take-off point into the ocean with Natalee’s body, but we must revisit my profile which reveals that Fisherman’s Huts was indeed the point of departure. (This is particularly important since Deepak communicated that once into the ocean the boat went straight out before dumping the body. See my January 13, 2008 post.)


7—Joran’s idea that Natalee’s body may have been consumed by ocean predators match perfectly the thoughtprint profile where both Joran and Deepak admit that they were “sharks,” sexual and aggressive predators who destroyed Natalee.


8—Joran confirms that there are still two possibilities as regards Natalee’s body—either it will be discovered or continue to remain in the ocean. Clearly all three suspects, particularly Deepak, have unconsciously encouraged the ocean search for Natalee’s body, strongly suggesting it’s discoverable. 


9—In summary, Joran confirms the identical story which all three suspects have told all along between the lines.


We must consider certain other facts in Joran’s new confession. Once again he is attempting to spin a cover-up story amidst his pressure to confess. Clearly his conscience is driving him to partially confess, a process from which he obtains some relief. He continues to show that he simply cannot live with the consuming guilt that is eating him up. Note again that his taped confession basically lets him off the hook.


Also he continues to spin the only plausible theory which can be accepted by followers of the case—that he acted alone and had sexual contact with a cooperative and willing Natalee. No one would believe that the three suspects were all with Natalee until the end without immediately being highly suspicious of a group sexual assault. Certainly no one would believe that Natalee willingly participated in group sex.

Apart from my profile of the case other facts clearly point to a group assault/aspiration death/ocean-drop scenario. No one witnessed Joran on the beach alone with Natalee—or with any of the three suspects on the beach—simply because the event never happened although they did dispose of Natalee’s body by taking her over the beach on the way to the ocean. There was a break-in at Fisherman’s Huts that night. A knife went missing along with a large fishing cage, a perfect device in which to load a body into a boat and take it out into the ocean. Such an escapade would involve several people.

Importantly, two of Joran’s best friends—Koen and Sander Gottenbos—had a speedboat moored in the Marriott marina next to Fisherman’s Huts. Sander admitted in a police interview that he offered Joran a ride in his boat the day of Natalee’s disappearance—a statement that clearly connected Joran to the boat that day. Strikingly, on the day after Natalee disappeared, the Gottenbos family removed the boat from the water (though the boys had been regularly using it several days a week), sold the boat not long afterwards and moved within the year to the U.S. (Georgia) with Koen attending college in Holland.  (Some have reported the entire family moved to Holland. Importantly, thoughtprint decoding of Sander’s police interview strongly suggested he was involved in disposing of Natalee’s body and very guilt-ridden as a result.)


The Concern over Taking Joran’s Confession Literally

If they completely buy Joran’s new confession, the authorities will remain puzzled as to what truly happened to Natalee Holloway. The danger of course will be they come to believe him in toto and thus dismiss the evidence that the Kalpoes, Paulus van der Sloot and the Gottenbos boys were all involved in the crime or its cover-up.


Additionally, the ocean search team can similarly be misled about the body’s location. The searchers could swing to the opposite extreme and ignore his valuable communication which reinforces that they are indeed on the right path. If all concerned see the matching consistent ideas/thoughtprints, however, the authorities can resolve their confusion. (Unfortunately I have little hope that police and prosecutors will embrace this approach, except for a certain member of the prosecutor’s staff who sent the FBI to authenticate my profile in order to use it in their legal system). Most importantly, John Silvetti’s ocean search team should be encouraged when they understand Joran is providing them the identical specific instructions that Deepak Kalpoe did.


Joran’s Reaction to His Confession

After being confronted about the news of de Vries’ secret tapes, Joran made some very revealing comments. As I expected, he claimed he’d been lying when he made the comments to the undercover man. He was quoted by a reputable Dutch television show, “It is true I told someone. Everybody will see it Sunday. That is what he wanted to hear, so I told him what he wanted to hear.” Decoding Joran’s comments, we find this message amidst his denial: “it is true.” Denial is often a classic way of presenting the hidden truth. His repetition of the phrase about telling “what he wanted to hear” suggests Joran’s own hidden need to tell the truth, his own deep need to hear himself say that he did it. Certainly we can see the pressure building in him to confess in recent weeks.


Finally, Joran said, “It is stupid, it is so stupid, it is really stupid.” He cannot get over how stupidly he has behaved—first in leading the assault on Natalee, and now how he has “stupidly” confessed. But his deeper intelligence, his conscience which must speak, certainly specializes in “stupid confessions” which inadvertently contain the unadulterated truth. 

forensicthoughtprints.com

[KarmaRoundUp]

I can't help but wonder if something was removed from that pond at the spot where we see the bottom chipped away. It certainly appears the CSI/searchers did that! Possible trace evidence? Imprints? Also that is one shallow pond!

That is what I'm thinkin'!
I think it is a good sign that only a small area was lifted - maybe it means they found what they were looking for. No need to dig up the whole pond. I also was thinking that pond was REALLY shallow, but maybe the grass there grows really quick once exposed.

Well, it was deep enough to float a boat with two large men, and drop the sonar into it.  I am betting it was at least 6 feet deep.  Yes, the grass grows really fast once exposed.  As I said earlier, it is the same here during the monsoons in July and August. 

That spot is somewhere around 20 feet from the edge,about the distance where 2-3 people would drop something heavy while walking on the bottom. It is also right in the middle where it is probably the deepest on that part of the pond.. If Natalee was found in that spot they would chip away at the bottom to get all the trace evidence because after 3 years much of her would have deteriorated except for the bones. Because it is so shallow that will be very tough on any DNA found because of the heat,but I suspect the Mud would preserve evidence nicely. I am curious just how deep it was in that spot, because if it was less than 4 feet then the chances are very slim they would put dispose of Natalee there. It's been 3 years now and apparently it has never gone dry but I bet they lose quite a bit of water in the dry season.

We have been let down so many times and I would suspect this could be another dead end. However that area that was chipped away has me intrigued,along with the witness and the manpower that searched this pond.

It's hard to get worked up about ANY development anymore. OE seems to say that this new search is DIRECTLY tied to the side sonar search of this pond before they left Aruba. I don't think they would drain the pond and bring in 40+ CSI guys to look for car parts, shoes and the like. JMO

I agree but I do have to wonder why they waited so long to investigate this pond IF the side sonar picked up anything suspicious back in february?I also don't think that paulus would be stupid enough to let joran hide anything in a pond so shallow right there on land.Why dispose of Natalee's body way out in the ocean(if that's what happened)with not much chance of being found and leave ANY evidence in a shallow pond right under investigaters noses?

[MumInOhio]

Quote Karma...
I agree but I do have to wonder why they waited so long to investigate this pond IF the side sonar picked up anything suspicious back in february?I also don't think that paulus would be stupid enough to let joran hide anything in a pond so shallow right there on land.Why dispose of Natalee's body way out in the ocean(if that's what happened)with not much chance of being found and leave ANY evidence in a shallow pond right under investigaters noses?

Good Morning...I am wondering if they were looking for the shoe as Caps has suggested. Driver's license, room key card...

I do recall something from Beth about a shoe. Foggy on this...was it a bloody shoe? With all the shoe talk of a while back, I am not sure if Dompig said one shoe or a pair of shoes.

[MumInOhio]

Quote Pita from the previous thread...
VIP Club and Indo Restaurant   17 Noord
Matty Apartments   15A Noord


Quote from: CapsLockWizard
The Night in question, Natalee was brought here.

The pace is called Matty Appartments. There are 6 Apratment in a long row

The Aprtments do not have a number since noboy lives there permanent. The Address is Noort 15-A

It is behind a house and accesavle form the main road, almost 150 meters The Lekker Restaurant.

The night in question, They would not have gone to the WhiteHouse Apartment since it only accept couples and notting else. no group parties. For Paprty one need to use the WhiteHouse Cocktail Lounge.


Now manage the Matty Apartments.

Heidweiller   Carlos R   4/15/1955   Paramaribo   Noord 15A
Heidweiller   Lilian   12/16/1960   Paramaribo   Noord 15A
Heidweiller   Lyndon D   11/12/1964   Paramaribo   Noord 15A

All these people are from Surinam. The guy at the door / office looks like a Hindu


This is a location of where they have gone. That nght. Movie was made in this appartment. Now which Apartment did they use. I do not know. but my guess would be the last one all the way in the back.

Now if you have to make 2 hr movie and she died after that, it would be easy to get rid of the body right there in the murky pool of Monserat. It is just across the street.and the cleaning of the appartment would have been easy since it is not in view of the street. The house was dusted.

the XTC and the DNA is just accoss from each other.

I still need a name for the escort that provided the service for the deflowering of forbidden fruits that Quido Wever  is part off and the so is Julia Renfro.


Johan ...I am not sure we have the right apartments in the map you posted. Caps says there are 6 in a row, behind a house and across the street from the pond. He also says that no-one lives there permanently, and your complex looks a little large for that.

Not very good with maps or pics, so any help to understand this would be appreciated.