Natalee Case Discussion #760 6/22 - 6/26/08

[Lala'sMom]

Nobody has said that Beth has been deceived.   JM has been extrememly helpful and supportive of Beth and Dave.  I honestly believe that he has great sympathy for both of them.  His efforts have been appreciated and continue to be appreciated.  He has been as helpful as he can be ...... 

 

SS ... if you perceive for one minute that Jossy Mansur is Dirtyhand ... then you must adhere to the belief that Jossy's role in the Natalee Holloway case could possibly be one of deception.

Janet

+++++++++

It's certainly possible that JM could be His Lordship.  I originally thought that Rudy was Dirty Hand, but JM seems to have more power and the ability to reach into more parts of that island than Rudy does.  Dirty Hand seems to have a lot of power.  Shango also said that Dirty Hand doesn't take part in the Raves and we heard that Rudy imports girls from Venezuela.  I kind of eliminated Rudy based on the girls.  I am now wondering if Rudy is the Arawak King because of his brother Betico's high esteem and importance.  I went back and read the posts from June 27th, 2005 and I don't think that Dirty Hand is van der Stratten.  Shango made several statements in that post about someone of power helping with the search and then he also mentioned the chief of police.  I don't know if Shango meant that Babalu had all parts of the clue correct or if he had hit on part of it at 12:30.  I don't think van der Straten has that much power, but I could be completely off base.  It's typical Shango - yesterday I thought Rudy was Dirty Hand, and today I think it's JM.

 

++++++++++

Really, Janet.  You are quoting a discussion that we are having over in the Shango thread. 

True. We are discussing Dirty Hand over in Shango...let's try to keep the Shango stuff over there if possible.  It confuses old sows like me. Thanks.

[texasmom]

Did Jossy review the whole case(what he has in his possession)that monday?
I'm all for Jossy,always have been and probably always will be no matter what is found out about him.He has helped Natalee's family more than anyone else on that hellhole.No one has shown this "Jossy owns 60% of aruba",I don't think,but I have heard this for 3 years now and even if he does.....so what.I wish Jossy the best and hope for continued good health for him.

Read the snippet below by Nico Jorg in his parting interview. This sums up Aruba's dilemma with not being able to cope with their corruption. I would not be a bit surprised if they busted Luis Mansur to shut Jossy up. This is the way Aruba operates.

This exactly why Natalee's case has never been solved, Nico says that the OM is helpless at prosecuting crime on anything above the street level because too many politics become involved. NOTICE WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT SMEAR CAMPAIGNS. DOES THAT NOT REMIND YOU OF WHAT THEY HAVE TRIED TO DO TO NATALEE AND BETH? It is what we've known all along, Aruba is corrupt because they are nothing but a good-ole-boy network. Nico knows it all too well.


Gloomy political climate 20 Jun, 2008

Nico Jorg: “I am under the impression that the OM comes up against a wall of resistance if they do more than just combating street criminality and get actively involved in investigation of the upperworld. It starts with a smear campaign in the media, nourished by politics. Corruption control is important for the country, because corruption slows down economic growth.”


http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43593.php

Thanks for pointing that out Dayhiker!  Yes, I will never forget the attacks on Natalee and Beth...we've all seen it, heard it, and read it for over three years now!  They want to blame their economic issues on the victims of crime when it is the "comfort" that corruption finds on their "happy little island" that is hurting them.  I hate to see Nico Jorg go...he's the only one that had the "cahunas" to call PVDS out a long time ago...and I'm glad he made the statement you've posted here on his way out.  It is so true....and I will miss him!

[Helen Back]

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080215-holloway-confession

some of Peter's thoughts at above link
and some of the 'out of woodwork' opinions:

"as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed"
By Alain de la Mar

11-02-2008
At the seminar, both legal psychologist Willem Albert Wagenaar and professor of criminal law Chrisje Brants particularly criticised the methods used by Mr De Vries.

"Solved"
Willem Albert Wagenaar said he thinks the crime reporter, who claimed to have "solved the case" was too quick to draw conclusions. In particular, because "it is not even a confession".

Above all else, actually broadcasting the footage has made it more difficult to secure a conviction. If Mr de Vries had given the material to the Public Prosecution Office straight away, it would be holding all the trumps, as investigators would be able to question Joran van der Sloot on information "that only the person responsible for Natalee's disappearance could know. And it would have been like all the other "confessions" and evidence in the case....inconclusive...not adequate...and finally...NON EXISTENT! Now everyone knows !. Yes, now everyone knows the true nature of Anita's "delicious sporter"....no one believes the lies about his nature anymore!  This side of Joran Van der sloot would have never been believed by most....until they saw him speak of Natalee the way he did.......and so much more.  No one in the general public would have ever witnessed those statements if Peter DeVries had turned the tapes over to the Public Prosecution.
"Madman"
Another point of criticism by Mr Wagenaar is that, in spite of claims by Peter R. de Vries that Joran van der Sloot would have to be a madman to say the things he did, there are people who lie about a statement.

Mr Wagenaar said it's not as simple as it seems. He described a number of situations in which people confess to crimes they have not committed. "Some people read an article in a newspaper and then say: I did it," to attract attention.  If Joran made the statements he made to get attention; he asked for it....HE GOT IT!
He also pointed out people admit to crimes to protect certain people. And then there are those who confess because of pressure from others. "They just crack," said Wagenaar. They even start believing their own lies.

One thing is certain according to Mr Wagenaar, "The case has absolutely not been solved." The idea that the footage is a confession to a crime is also premature, as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed.

Judge and Jury
There is something the Public Prosecution can do with the confession, said the second speaker of the day, professor Chrisje Brants. The Aruban authorities can follow up new trails of investigation. The footage itself would not lead to an arrest, because there is no evidence to detain him on. She mainly criticised the way in which the programme did more damage than good.

"Combating, investigating and prosecuting crime is a matter for the authorities," said Professor Brants. "But in his programme Peter R. de Vries is both judge and jury."

http://www.radionetherlands.nl.....egal-sloot

Thanks ******* for bringing that over!
I agree that the DeVries tapes did not "solve" the case, but I disagree that they should not have been televised, I've commented in navy in some areas of the statements.

Dang *******!  Thanks from me too!  You may have shined a little light on something that has been a big puzzlement to me.  We were discussing just a few days ago the way the DeVries investigation went down.  Many expressed concern that the infiltration was known months earlier by the OM in Aruba, and that Joran had been "prepped" during his last detainment.  The thing nagging me was why Joran, since he and the prosecution certainly knew of the infiltration, was so upset after the DeVries special when P & W interviewed him by phone on their show?  He was clearly very upset, and that didn't jive with his obvious knowledge of the "secret" taping.

I think you  just brought me the answer!  Is it possible that Joran expected (along with the OM) that Peter DeVries would turn over the video tapes to the OM instead of airing them on his show?  Did Joran et al expect that the tapes would be buried with the OM along with every other piece of evidence that has been gathered, and that his Dad and buddies would take care of it as always?  Is it possible that Joran came unglued on the
P & W show because he did not originally anticipate the world hearing and viewing those tapes? 

I think so!

Peter DeVries has done us more of a service than I originally believed.  The OM in Aruba would love to have hidden these video's away like everything else in this case.  Anyone who believes Peter DeVries has harmed an investigation that the OM in Aruba would have conducted, has not been paying attention.

MOO

Helen

[LoRain]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

[klaasend]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

   Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

[Tamikosmom]

Nobody has said that Beth has been deceived.   JM has been extrememly helpful and supportive of Beth and Dave.  I honestly believe that he has great sympathy for both of them.  His efforts have been appreciated and continue to be appreciated.  He has been as helpful as he can be ...... 

 

SS ... if you perceive for one minute that Jossy Mansur is Dirtyhand ... then you must adhere to the belief that Jossy's role in the Natalee Holloway case could possibly be one of deception.

Janet

+++++++++

It's certainly possible that JM could be His Lordship.  I originally thought that Rudy was Dirty Hand, but JM seems to have more power and the ability to reach into more parts of that island than Rudy does.  Dirty Hand seems to have a lot of power.  Shango also said that Dirty Hand doesn't take part in the Raves and we heard that Rudy imports girls from Venezuela.  I kind of eliminated Rudy based on the girls.  I am now wondering if Rudy is the Arawak King because of his brother Betico's high esteem and importance.  I went back and read the posts from June 27th, 2005 and I don't think that Dirty Hand is van der Stratten.  Shango made several statements in that post about someone of power helping with the search and then he also mentioned the chief of police.  I don't know if Shango meant that Babalu had all parts of the clue correct or if he had hit on part of it at 12:30.  I don't think van der Straten has that much power, but I could be completely off base.  It's typical Shango - yesterday I thought Rudy was Dirty Hand, and today I think it's JM.

 

++++++++++

Really, Janet.  You are quoting a discussion that we are having over in the Shango thread. 
 

True. We are discussing Dirty Hand over in Shango...let's try to keep the Shango stuff over there if possible.  It confuses old sows like me. Thanks.

 

Lala'sMom .... it was OK when SS brought Shango stuff over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread yesterday because it related to the dialogue ... a dialogue you were were part of.

However ... today I brought Shango stuff over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread because it related to the dialogue and ... according to you and SS ... that is a no no.

 

Anyways ... post are brought over to the Natalee Holloway discussion thread from other threads and other sites all the time if they relate to the dialogue.

Janet

+++++++++++

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #973 on: June 22, 2008, 11:47:19 PM »

Dirty hand stays hidden, but all are well-fed.

We must have a sacrifice
Hide dirty hand

If cowboys see dirty hand, many teepees fall. House of Babylon falls.
we must have a sacrifice to feed the cowboys.
they go back to the fort with no loot.

Arawaks worried about being caught with dirty hand

The sacrifice is the correct food to appease the gods, arawaks, and cowboys
but the foundations of the house of babylon will shake
even harder if Arawak Dirty Hand is revealed

Arawaks fear wrath of cowboys for DirtyHand
But babylonians live in teepees too
If the house of babylon is to remain erect, it must protect the babylonians who have lived in teepees, among the arawaks, for a long time.
babylon will agree to a sacrifice of newer teepee dwellers to prevent the story of dirtyhand being made public
Dirtyhand scares arawaks too
the sacrifice will be the correct sacrifice to appease the gods and cowboys
cowboys will leave without loot

The Arawaks are not going to sacrifice a scapegoat
Babylon needs to allow one sacrifice to keep DirtyHand hidden
Babylon scared of DirtyHand
Arawaks scared of DirtyHand
If sacrifice is made, teepees are safe, villagers and cowboys happy
If DirtyHand discovered, House of Babylon falls, Teepees crushed under great house


The babylonians are to blame.
The arawaks were worried about teepees and the cowboys.
They did not bring DirtyHand into the Tribe!

Even if you play cards in the house of babylon as an arawak, you still have DirtyHand.
If DirtyHand comes out of hiding, Babylon will fall and the cowboys will circle the wagons.
DirtyHand can destroy the Arawaks and Babylon.

DirtyHand is well known

All fear DirtyHand

DirtyHand is alive and well

As long as DirtyHand is not found
Aruba is preserved and Babylon will pay the price

DirtyHand and the fallen judge may not be crucified

DirtyHand is not an Arawak
Many pioneers have settled with the tribe

The card of babylon was already played
if it sings, DirtyHand will bring down the Royal House on top of the Arawak Nation

DirtyHand walks with the elders

DirtyHand knows the Babylonians that provided escort after the 2 shivas left

Are the children of the elders there, or did they flee to Babylon?
DirtyHand knows, this is his Power

DirtyHand walks in ALL houses
houses of the Arawaks, and houses of Rave
He can break the alibi

DirtyHand can break the Alibi, he walks all circles
The Simian knows this

Find DirtyHand! He too walked in this house of Babylon.
But not to satiate desire.

DirtyHand is not a child of Babylon
He holds the real key (video?)
The Arawaks fear his exposure
The house of babylon would tumble down on the teepees of the Arawaks
DirtyHand knows the cowboys will leave lootless.
He can break the alibi

Coverups begin with elders and the founders of the houses of Babylon
Not the minions
DirtyHand knows this

DirtyHand is the key
He walks with the elders
He walks in all houses
And he walked with the fallen elder
he was the hidden card that was played
now if he sings, babylon will fall on the arawak nation

DirtyHand has worked for the elders for a long time

DirtyHand walks with the Babylons, the Arawaks and is consort to the fallen elder

DirtyHand can bring down all houses
DirtyHand is the key
His reach is long
He walks in all circles
consort to all, except for the gods
He knows the sacrifice is not responsible

Young Babylonians and Shivas do not build sand castles
DirtyHand knows this
Children of the Elders play in the maze,
but DirtyHand is afraid to rave

The maze offers many hidden desires
deflowerings of forbidden fruits
DirtyHand knows.
So does the elder.
The lamb is a scapegoat.
DirtyHand has walked through the maze
He knows of the forbidden fruit
and the gardeners

DirtyHand does not play with the lions
but he has entered the maze
the lamb is a scapegoat
DirtyHand knows
So does the Elder

DirtyHand knows, but is afraid of the Arawak Nation.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.msg392277#msg392277


MumInOhio
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #978 on: June 22, 2008, 11:54:31 PM »

SS...So is Jossy Dirty Hand or Shango?…I think he fits somewhere!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.msg392277#msg392277


Lala'sMom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #759 6/18 -
« Reply #979 on: June 22, 2008, 11:54:59 PM »

What do all those businesses owned by Jossy do?  I have asked this over and over.  Does anyone know if they are legit or not? 

Let's look at this as a hypothetical...

If Shango says that dirty hand it the key to everything and we assume that dirty hand or one of them is JM...then that means that Shango can not be JM since he has outed dirty hand with this info...so that leaves someone that has a grudge or a score to settle with said person.  Just thinking here...actually I have been thinking this for some time, just have a chance to throw it out there for discussion. 

My next question is one I have asked over and over too...is there a connection between Ernesto and Jossy?  Still working on that one...there are some really intelligent thinkers on here...surely someone has some thoughts on this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2938.960

[Blue Moon]

Good nite Monkeys. Calling it a night.  Too much Jossy tonight for me

[friend of monkeys]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

 ::MonkeyHaHa::i just hope the golden monkey does not get a golden shower.

[friend of monkeys]

Klass hope u are back to 100%!

Love,
FOM

[klaasend]

FOM - thanks for asking - I am 

[friend of monkeys]

ty Klass..glad u are well again.

Thanks for all that you do!

Prayers for Natalee and her family.

Nite monkeys

[klaasend]

Nite FOM

[texasmom]

Nite FOM!   

[Observer]

My thoughts on the Patrick tapes and what Joran is up to..>>MOO

I still think Joran was looking for a big pay day and Patrick's book is the answer. It wasn't gonna come from suing anyone,writing books or a big movie deal. Here he is the star in the biggest missing persons case in history and he has no money,no future and he's been assured he will never be prosecuted. He most certainly has no intentions of finishing school or working hard for a career,it's too late for that as this case messed up his life and people are always challenging him that he is a murderer and a liar. He deserves a big payday for all his troubles and being so famous. In his mind anyway.

The video serves a dual purpose,he owes Aruba a ending so they can move on and close this case forever and to end the negative media that affects there precious tourism. Joran is stuck with no future and no money,So what if he has to reveal some bad things about himself or even make things up. He doesn't like the cold and holland much anyway and for a few hundred thousand to a million,he would gladly leave the country for a nice Beach house in spain or elsewhere in the caribbean.

The false tape had to be believable but couldn't implicate those involved or those that covered up Natalee's murder and dissapearance and Joran had to be careful what he admitted to. After much thought of thinking of a false ending without anyone going to Prison or releasing the truth, they though of this Daury who could take the rest of the blame and finally give everyone closure and a ending. Natalee dying of a cocaine overdose didn't lead to any good endings or closure so they had to think of something else.

They threw in a few things to make it believable,like Joran's early confession that Natalee had seizures and Joran taking all the blame for being a dirtbag and a liar and responsible for everything except dumping Nats body. Announce that Paulus was sleeping,the Kalpoes are innocent and stupid and him and daury are to blame for everything,well mostly Daury since Natalee could of been alive and he dumped her at sea. Daury,of course he will never be found,but the Dutch and ALE will announce they did there best to find him and will always be on the lookout for fresh tips since Joran won't give him up. This gives Beth Peace,Closes the case forever and Joran gets a fat check where he can live anonymously in a country that he likes and can live in peace. Patrick was more then happy to oblige as he gets 50% of the take and did a great service to his country. Joran will stay most of the summer in Thailand until the smoke clears and the book profits start rolling in.

Case solved,Beths at peace and everyone is Happy..Even Joran 

[LoRain]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

   Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

I didn't realize that Reality was a member there and NO I have not been sent by Reality for ANYTHING....I have not seen Reality this evening but am sure I will hear from him tomorrow...and I was also under the impression he was not a member here either....point being I don't care where he or anyone else is a member of....

I have not been allowed to be a member at GoldMonkeys..(although I swear I believe I was a member before)....anyway....I have been turned down for a very stupid reason IMO...that reason being who the others are that post on other forums that I post on....in other words...I am not allowed to be a member because  "due to your association with certain people who have involved themselves in the case with not so good intentions we cannot approve your membership at this time."....that's the reason I was given and it's not the first time I have heard this excuse before...any comments?

[klaasend]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

   Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

I didn't realize that Reality was a member there and NO I have not been sent by Reality for ANYTHING....I have not seen Reality this evening but am sure I will hear from him tomorrow...and I was also under the impression he was not a member here either....point being I don't care where he or anyone else is a member of....

I have not been allowed to be a member at GoldMonkeys..(although I swear I believe I was a member before)....anyway....I have been turned down for a very stupid reason IMO...that reason being who the others are that post on other forums that I post on....in other words...I am not allowed to be a member because  "due to your association with certain people who have involved themselves in the case with not so good intentions we cannot approve your membership at this time."....that's the reason I was given and it's not the first time I have heard this excuse before...any comments?

Well I can't answer for Goldmonkey forum and I'm not a member there although I do read it from time to time.  Since I'm not a member I don't go into their chat room.   It is their right to choose who they want to approve for membership and frankly don't need a reason at all.  There are some people that would NEVER be approved here at SM too.  There are some that are approved and later banned.  At least Goldmonkey and Scared Monkeys have one thing in common, they are open for all to read.  Some forums won't even allow people to read unless they are a member 

[LoRain]

I just couldn't understand being turned down because I post on different forums with different people....didn't see why it would matter so much...thanks for the comments klaasend....I'll just continue to read....I just hate to be "blacklisted" because of another person when I have done nothing wrong....thanks again.....

[Helen Back]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

   Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

I didn't realize that Reality was a member there and NO I have not been sent by Reality for ANYTHING....I have not seen Reality this evening but am sure I will hear from him tomorrow...and I was also under the impression he was not a member here either....point being I don't care where he or anyone else is a member of....

I have not been allowed to be a member at GoldMonkeys..(although I swear I believe I was a member before)....anyway....I have been turned down for a very stupid reason IMO...that reason being who the others are that post on other forums that I post on....in other words...I am not allowed to be a member because  "due to your association with certain people who have involved themselves in the case with not so good intentions we cannot approve your membership at this time."....that's the reason I was given and it's not the first time I have heard this excuse before...any comments?

Well I can't answer for Goldmonkey forum and I'm not a member there although I do read it from time to time.  Since I'm not a member I don't go into their chat room.   It is their right to choose who they want to approve for membership and frankly don't need a reason at all.  There are some people that would NEVER be approved here at SM too.  There are some that are approved and later banned.  At least Goldmonkey and Scared Monkeys have one thing in common, they are open for all to read.  Some forums won't even allow people to read unless they are a member 

 

[Helen Back]

I have an off-topic...innocent question....please...What's the difference in this forum and "GoldenMonkey" forum....

   Ok, I'll bite.

The GoldMonkey forum was set up by an ex-SM poster by the name of Carnut.  It's more of a chit chatty place with a chat room and a fun place for people that enjoy that kind of thing to hang out. 


Edited to add:  Again I find your questions confusing.  You have a member of BNH that is also a member of SM and GoldMonkey, why don't you just ask them?  Or did Reality send you over here to post the question just to see what the reaction would be?

I didn't realize that Reality was a member there and NO I have not been sent by Reality for ANYTHING....I have not seen Reality this evening but am sure I will hear from him tomorrow...and I was also under the impression he was not a member here either....point being I don't care where he or anyone else is a member of....

I have not been allowed to be a member at GoldMonkeys..(although I swear I believe I was a member before)....anyway....I have been turned down for a very stupid reason IMO...that reason being who the others are that post on other forums that I post on....in other words...I am not allowed to be a member because  "due to your association with certain people who have involved themselves in the case with not so good intentions we cannot approve your membership at this time."....that's the reason I was given and it's not the first time I have heard this excuse before...any comments?

Well I can't answer for Goldmonkey forum and I'm not a member there although I do read it from time to time.  Since I'm not a member I don't go into their chat room.   It is their right to choose who they want to approve for membership and frankly don't need a reason at all.  There are some people that would NEVER be approved here at SM too.  There are some that are approved and later banned.  At least Goldmonkey and Scared Monkeys have one thing in common, they are open for all to read.  Some forums won't even allow people to read unless they are a member 

So funny to me.......I'm here every day and I never even heard of it.

[klaasend]

I just couldn't understand being turned down because I post on different forums with different people....didn't see why it would matter so much...thanks for the comments klaasend....I'll just continue to read....I just hate to be "blacklisted" because of another person when I have done nothing wrong....thanks again.....

You aren't "black listed" here as long as you don't bad mouth Natalee or members of her family.  Please continue to read and post.