Natalee Case Discussion #762 6/30 - 7/6/08

[Observer]

I spoke to soon,looks like the slimeballs at FOB2 payed there bill and the site is back up.



Sorry, we do not accept new registrations.

[San]

******* how about we remove their link from this site.

[texasmom]

Hey 'gunslinger!  Good to see you!

[johan555]

******* how about we remove their link from this site.

YES !

[Observer]

Geez it's slow...Just wanted to wish everyone a great Independance day to all the great Canadians and Americans we have amongst us...That love there countries and will never give up on justice for Natalee. I must add we have some outstanding Dutchie's here as well   

Most of us men here in the states love our Beer..Johan..Maybe similar to your neghbors in Germany Don't flame me ladies..Just trying to give everyone a much needed laugh   

Beer remote    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOSAHPa-rH0

[johan555]

Thanks ******* !
i am scanning the Amigoe archive but the deleted the 2005 post

[bleachedblack]

   
Searching for the Guilty and Abandoning the Innocent
 
Dale Netherton
July 03, 2008

The recent concern with a fake suicide that eventually ended with finding the "body" to be alive and well and intent on avoiding prison poses a strange paradox. No one threw in the towel on Mr. Samuel Israel when his vehicle was found on a bridge and a suicide note written on the hood. There was an instant reaction that the suicide was probably a fake and he was probably still alive. Contrast this with the attitude taken toward Natalie Holloway who was never even given the courtesy of a consideration that she might be captive and alive somewhere. There was an almost instant reaction that the body must be found. Why? There was no evidence that she was dead. There was no blood. There were no witnesses that said they had seen her killed. Why the rush to judgment? Why not a consideration of all the possibilities that could have caused her to go missing? Why was this innocent abandoned as dead when a guilty criminal was not?

One could say that criminals lie and this would be expected. But the motive for his suicide was far more clear and convincing than the fabricated motive(s) of killing Natalee. No motive was ever offered that made any sense. Yet Natalee was written off and all that was ever done was to listen to contradictory fabrications by Aruba officials and follow red herrings that came up with nothing. Why is the ´confession " of Joran that was so "expertly" orchestrated now just a memory in the public consciousness? You don´t see even the investigative Greta prying into the stalemate. There is still only one answer to all the bizarre circumstances and investigations that fits these odd "conclusions" that explain nothing. That answer can only be that the "authorities" in Aruba had something to hide and are continuing in their efforts to hope this crime is never fully explained and resolved. That they have a vested interest in delay and silence has been confirmed every day this saga continues.

Law enforcement in the case of Mr. Samuel Israel wanted to get the bottom of the issue and seek out the truth. The law enforcement involved in Natalee´s disappearance took a far different approach and concluded without evidence that Natalee was dead. What kind of rationale leads one to conclude a person is dead just because they disappeared? Legally seven years is necessary for a person to be declared dead if there is no evidence of their existence. In the meantime, wouldn´t you assume the fact she was not dead was a possibility and openly declare that? Not if you are an investigator in Aruba. Somehow the lack of a body leads to a conclusion of death under the Aruba investigative logic. The news media most involved in this case in the United States ( mostly Fox News ) has bought into this approach and has talked all around the edges of the disappearance to the extent that one of their commentators ( whose looking out for the folks ) announced he had it on "good sources " that she was killed and dumped into the ocean. When challenged on this contention he referred to the F.B.I. as his source. Why , if that was known, wasn´t it confirmed with witnesses and evidence? The answer is obvious it was just another bit of bloviating that was to be taken on faith by the loyal listeners.


One can certainly understand a wish for closure on this, but how is closure to be obtained by simply declaring what is not known must have happened? And what exactly did happen that would put a person´s mind at rest? A simple explanation that Natalee was killed without motive? That there was no evidence found because a perfect crime was possible by three teenagers involved in a murder that no one could verify or find any evidence of? Conflicting stories? Who would buy into this and settle for this as closure? What kind of mind(s) are willing to accept what is not factually proven and announce they are "now at peace"? Thousands of missing prisoners of war were never treated this way. People who went missing under all kinds of strange circumstances were considered to be lost but not dead until evidence showed otherwise. Yet in the Natalee Holloway disappearance a different and strange willingness to discount her life became the search for a body that never appeared and to this day is still only a conjecture.

Even if Natalee is never found it does not excuse the approach and the continuing evasion of the Aruba authorities. They can talk all they want about how justice is served under their system but if the Natalee Holloway disappearance is the standard ( which I´m sure it isn´t ) a verdict could never be rendered, a suspect never convicted and a criminal never arrested. There is only one agency that could keep this case under the wraps it has endured and that agency is the Aruba government. It has shown itself to be corrupt under the umbrella of incompetence which too many are willing is dismiss as sufficient and a reason for the lack of results.

This issue will never go away just by the passing of time. The circumstances will always lead to a conclusion that something was wrong and something was strange about how this disappearance was handled. It will always arouse curiosity and even though the perpetrators may die off and the case remain in the cold files the circumstances and the resolution cannot be pronounced solved until all of the facts are known and the disappearance of Natalee is explained.

The press could push this issue but it won´t because it waits for a break that will come from something other than its own curiosity. This news story is what Watergate would look like if Bernstein and Woodward had simply taken the approach the reporters of today have taken with regard to the disappearance of Natalee. Digging for the truth is no longer what reporters do. They wait for news from people calling in and then they respond like robots willing to take opinions at face value. The tenacious seeker of truth is no longer the ideal of the reporter of today. The Natalee Holloway disappearance will be the hallmark that will define the willingness to accept what is unacceptable. It is the story that journalism schools can point to where everyone in the business left a story to a faulty approach. Meanwhile in a brothel in a dark corner of the world may be the only person that can defy their theory with a shout of , "I´m not dead". All who have condemned her to this need to examine their conscience for the willingness to live with the unexplained. May it never happen to them.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/67075

[Observer]

Fantastic article BB!

Whatcha looking for Johan?

[wreck]

Geez it's slow...Just wanted to wish everyone a great Independance day to all the great Canadians and Americans we have amongst us...That love there countries and will never give up on justice for Natalee. I must add we have some outstanding Dutchie's here as well   

Most of us men here in the states love our Beer..Johan..Maybe similar to your neghbors in Germany Don't flame me ladies..Just trying to give everyone a much needed laugh   

Beer remote    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOSAHPa-rH0

It's sloooow on a day before a long American holiday weekend -- expect some big development that they wish to slip under the rug to be "let out" today!! 

[Rob]

Geez it's slow...Just wanted to wish everyone a great Independance day to all the great Canadians and Americans we have amongst us...That love there countries and will never give up on justice for Natalee. I must add we have some outstanding Dutchie's here as well   

Most of us men here in the states love our Beer..Johan..Maybe similar to your neghbors in Germany Don't flame me ladies..Just trying to give everyone a much needed laugh   

Beer remote    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOSAHPa-rH0

hi ******* - YEH WE DO! Good one!!!

since there is no topic I start one.

Lots of recent talk by Joran regarding that dirtbag - his father - Paulus. Ohhh how innocent he is. Oh how he can not ever tell a lie. Ohhh how he is the most honest person in the world. yada yada yada.

This is all so upside down. This is the guy with TWO CONTACTS WITH NATALEE. The guy who said that the Alabama posse had "no jurisdiction". Who would do anything to protect his son. Snuck the cell phone into jail in direct violation of the judiciary.

What did we need to have happen here? the good boy sporter judge make over? gmfb!!

That Paulus Van Der Sloot is as guilty as anyone I have ever seen, and I mean EVER. He would already be serving year two of a life sentence if this all went down in the good ole US of A. Or we would have burnt him at the stake LOL.

I light the match.

So anyway - DeVries is back on Paulus. Good! I'm not convinced Godfather Peter R is anything but what he represents himself as. caseu is no dummy and has been watching this guy for years. I believe caesu. I think Godfather Peter R did get played by Patrick. Little doubt in my mind here. Patrick plays everyone. That's why he has a chopped up face. When the truth is revealed about Paulus - everyone will simply say - OH THAT"S WHY ALL THIS HAPPEN!

Interesting the Patrick book is like Joran telling his life long story as if he was a normal person. Yeah right - sure he is! 

my dad this - my dad that... blah blah blah gak! I love my grandma. barf!

Natalee's grandma loved Natalee so much - what about her? is she supposed to spend her final days on this planet wonder what became of Natalee so a douchebag can proclaim how normal his family is? If this is normal - I don't wanna KNOW normal.

Someone needs to call Den Holder and check that entire family of megalomaniacs in.

[Observer]

Once again here he is trying to infiltrate and act like a mobster to get the truth..But then he says he will kill Joran if he hears he hurt Natalee. Why would he say that if he was trying to get the truth and be his friend?  Why would you threaten to kill someone and scare them from telling the real truth? I thought thats why Patrick did all this..Was to get the truth? It seems to me he was in full control and orchestrated this whole charade and never wanted the truth and he made sure of it after threatening Joran.

What about trying to be understanding like a good thug,that she got sick from the drugs Joran slipped her and was not responsive or breathing or he had to bash her in the head because she was going crazy after being raped and was threatening to tell on everyone?  Patrick never asked any relevent questions..None!! Joran says she suddenly has epilectic seizures,she is discarded in the ocean and he throws his shoes away for no reason..Where is all the money coming from they were expecting? This fictitious MJ Plantation or from the millions that Patrick knew he would get from the TV show and Book?

How many little slips were there like this that were edited out?
P:Joran if I hear you say you did anything bad to Natalee on camera..I shoot you..I don't want you talking to the press anymore,,I want to meet this Daury..Because after he see's all the money are we are making he may become dangerous..How much do we need to give to him for him to stay quiet?
---------------------------------------
P: I want to know who he is. I don’t have to talk to him about this, but if I see him, then I know if he will be able to use this against us.
J: Yeah, one would see that right away.
P: I can see that, you know. Then I can tell you how I feel. But I think it’s dangerous for him to be walking around with this and certainly for later on, when there is a lot of money involved and he sees we’ve got lots of money, you know?
J: Yes.
P: I give him one chance and then he’ll get a bullet.
J: Yeah, I agree with you, but…
P: But was he there then? (GBMW: I have no idea what Patrick is talking about; can’t figure that out…if Daury disposed of Natalee…he should have been there right? Maybe this is about something else)

P: Of course, man, we’ll mention nothing, and we’ll blow a bit and…it’s cool. And when he’s gone, then I’ll talk to you & I’ll give you my view about that boy, because I can read people, you know. I look at those people and how they act.

P: But you really didn’t hurt her, right, Joran?
J: Patrick, I swear.
P: The day I find out you hurt her I’ll kill you, right!
J: Yeah, you’ll kill me.
P: Then I could live with it as well, you know.

[always 1]

*******, your beer remote story would be funny if that guy wasnt laying on my couch

[johan555]

zaterday 02 februari 2008  translation via Google


 
By EDDY VAN DER LEY

ARNHEM - Joran van der Sloot lived until recently with three fellow students in a student residence at Loevensteinlaan in Arnhem East.
 

  According to his neighbour claimed he a true regime. ,, If I complained about the huge noise or declaration did, he threatened me. I have more than two years lived in fear.''

With soft voice describes the neighbour of Joran van der Sloot "more than two years of misery and inconvenience." They dare not give away her tongue to show ( "I wait with bated breath Sunday af '), but nevertheless paints a disconcerting picture of her 20-year-old neighbor.

,, From the moment he is coming to live here, shortly after the affair in Aruba, I lived at odds with Joran and his roommates,''she says. ,, They regularly noise caused by under the influence of drugs and drinks, hard music twisted or hard to scream. If I said something about, Joran threatened me. I have several times reported to the police and that was not thank me decreased. I have all that time lived in fear.''

According to the neighbour had Joran often loud and clear on the action taken with Natalee Holloway had done. ,, He creates there against his friends really about,''she says. ,, You should know that the walls have ears here, but also behind the house he did during parties bizarre rulings. A confession? I can not say too much about, but it testified absolutely disrespect for Natalee. The boys with whom he together, have heard all the details several times. I do not think they do not have been interrogated by the police.''

According to the neighbour Joran lived since a month or two no longer in the student converted to rijtjeswoning. His initial co relocated. ,, He has moved in Aruba shortly after he had been directly. His parents have leeggeruimd his room and belongings retrieved. However, he still often stay. It struck me that all brakes than losgingen. He was more than ever a party. Last week I gave him was last seen.''

That Joran until recently was occupant of the house, is obvious from the mail and addressed to him at the recent corveelijst in the kitchen that contains four names: Alex, Chris, Mark and Joran.

The neighbour has an idea who the man is that Joran there with a hidden camera would have ingeluisd. ,, If I follow it, it should be an older man, an Aruban, moving from one to the other day a regular on the house. He was friends with Joran and often of the party at the parties.''Say they do not want more.

That Joran of parties, it may seem donderdagnacht confirmed. While the whole of the Netherlands was under the spell of the upcoming revelations of Peter R. de Vries about the Holloway case, danced the former suspect a hole in the night in the disco Arnhemse Manhattan. Dj Lourenz Trimp and feestorganisator Eshrik pontifical Martel went with him on the picture.

,, Joran was very relaxed, very thrilled''says Trimp. The deejay talked extensively with the Holloway-suspect. ,, He was in the festivities, he talked to its very meaning. He comes here often, so we know him well. Joran did not go deep on the situation with Nathalee Holloway and the investigation of Peter R. de Vries, but gave it to not worry. In a nightclub with loud music demand you do not. Joran Saturday at the bar, next to the Lama's, who also were inside. So there were many visitors around.''

As co-organizer of the festival in Arnhem Error-Trimp asked him whether he is the flyer with his picture of the festival - on 5 april - wants to decorate. Van der Sloot said spontaneously, photos were shot on the spot. Trimp:,, We want to gather as much publicity as possible and then it is good to Joran on the flyers too. If he is found guilty? Even then, in my view. The festival is called Error: So how fouter, the better. We like to provoke, have also Máxima already been printed. However, we will - in the case, Joran is guilty - should consult with a lawyer or a bar over his eyes should be.''

That Trimp with Joran on the photo went, he regrets afterwards. ,, We had a slide, when a girl asked us to pose. She announced that photo to send to newspapers and magazines. 'Try', we said, 'good for the publicity of our party. "That is so, but I did not know that it would detach.''

The 19-year-old Jessica spoke at the bar five minutes with Joran. ,, He made a calm, balanced impression. I asked him about the situation with Peter R. de Vries, which he said: "this man is doing everything to destroy my life, I do not take him seriously." Also, he said: 'Let it, it's all hot air. "He seems very confident of his innocence, but yes, he has repeatedly proven not to be taken as closely with the truth.

[johan555]

were are the traffic lights ?

[Observer]

A real Mobster/Infiltrater would say Joran..What you are telling me makes no sense..So believe me Ill understand and wont say anything if you tell me the truth..Obviously you had to get rid of her body because you did something bad to her or a terrible accident..She did not go into seizures for no reason and it makes no sense why you throw new shoes away. You showed up 30 minutes before the bar closed and drugged her as you knew it was her last night..You pretended you were from Holland,19 years old and you were staying at her Hotel..That everyone knows..You and your friends were called pimps for a reason and I lived in Aruba..Man..I know what a loverboy is..You can't con me what goes on..Im here snorting grams of cocaine and screwing whores..You can tell me man..

Were you high as a kite and lose your temper after you guys raped her and she put up a fight? Did you have to drug her again because she went ballistic and was scratching people and threatening to tell? Cmon man your full of shit,tell me what you did with her and why you had to get rid of her body? Ill understand man..Did she hit her head on a wall or something trying to run? Just a accident? Was she already dead at 4am when she met your dad again? Is that who you are protecting or someone else? I dont care if you hit her in the head with a baseball bat man or your father raped her..Just tell me the truth..I WILL UNDERSTAND.............

---------------------------------------
Instead this guy who claims he has Joran wrapped around his fingers never asks any relevent questions. Nor does he ask about the all the other suspects or what Joran was really doing that night. Of course Patrick never says anything about Daddy's friends and the enormous help they were to Joran. He claims he has been following this case since the beginning and is doing this to get answers for Beth..

He seems to be loud and clear here for the camera..Pointing out Joran never hurt Natalee and he would kill him if he found out he did. Isnt that right Joran? Right? Case closed,Beth is at Peace and the boycott of Aruba can end now...

P: But you really didn’t hurt her, right, Joran?
J: Patrick, I swear.
P: The day I find out you hurt her I’ll kill you, right!
J: Yeah, you’ll kill me.
P: Then I could live with it as well, you know.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I think I'll pass on believing that post for ArubaFactsOnly=arubaMisInformationOnly

Yeh I threw that in there from RWV 

I remember Dan and his late night posts which he erased,looking at the site now there is much missing.MO..One night he told us when Deepak was first questioned he had a receipt or info/adress and number about a ship out of Miami. I forget which one..

I can only hope Dan kept all posts he deleted. What a shame he got involved at all.  I don't remember the ship info in dk pocket but I remember a piece of paper with the name Steve on it.

Klaas, get to see you too.  I hope that the entire group of pervs and all other groups of pervs are caught and proscecuted and many can benifit from the loss of Brooke.

RU backed up a few pages that were deleted but i fear he deleted quite a bit. He really started going berzerk when Red went to Aruba and he saw the paypal at SM. Then he wrote a couple of articles at court tv and bragged how well it paid..lol

I've read the RWV stuff at RU.  FWIW - I believe that much has been edited out, especially some posters.  A person that posted as "threeinchpipe" comes to mind.  There are posters that are answering posts and posters that no longer exist.  imho

[Observer]

I think I'll pass on believing that post for ArubaFactsOnly=arubaMisInformationOnly

I've read the RWV stuff at RU.  FWIW - I believe that much has been edited out, especially some posters.  A person that posted as "threeinchpipe" comes to mind.  There are posters that are answering posts and posters that no longer exist.  imho

Yeh,that wouldn't suprise me..I know for sure is there are conversations I had on that forum that are not on the net anymore.

[wreck]

I think I'll pass on believing that post for ArubaFactsOnly=arubaMisInformationOnly

I've read the RWV stuff at RU.  FWIW - I believe that much has been edited out, especially some posters.  A person that posted as "threeinchpipe" comes to mind.  There are posters that are answering posts and posters that no longer exist.  imho

Yeh,that wouldn't suprise me..I know for sure is there are conversations I had on that forum that are not on the net anymore.

It was nuts! They had single posters posting with 3-4 aliases posting responses to each other. This would go on for 2-3 hours (especially when we were getting too close)! Dan would never acknowledge this was going on. I e-mailed him back and forth quite frequently.

[WhiskeyGirl]

If this was already posted, please delete...

Searching for the Guilty and Abandoning the Innocent

Dale Netherton
July 03, 2008

(snip)

...Contrast this with the attitude taken toward Natalie Holloway who was never even given the courtesy of a consideration that she might be captive and alive somewhere. There was an almost instant reaction that the body must be found. Why? There was no evidence that she was dead. There was no blood. There were no witnesses that said they had seen her killed. Why the rush to judgment? Why not a consideration of all the possibilities that could have caused her to go missing? Why was this innocent abandoned as dead when a guilty criminal was not?

One could say that criminals lie and this would be expected. But the motive for his suicide was far more clear and convincing than the fabricated motive(s) of killing Natalee. No motive was ever offered that made any sense. Yet Natalee was written off and all that was ever done was to listen to contradictory fabrications by Aruba officials and follow red herrings that came up with nothing. Why is the ´confession " of Joran that was so "expertly" orchestrated now just a memory in the public consciousness? You don´t see even the investigative Greta prying into the stalemate. There is still only one answer to all the bizarre circumstances and investigations that fits these odd "conclusions" that explain nothing. That answer can only be that the "authorities" in Aruba had something to hide and are continuing in their efforts to hope this crime is never fully explained and resolved. That they have a vested interest in delay and silence has been confirmed every day this saga continues.

...The law enforcement involved in Natalee´s disappearance took a far different approach and concluded without evidence that Natalee was dead. What kind of rationale leads one to conclude a person is dead just because they disappeared? Legally seven years is necessary for a person to be declared dead if there is no evidence of their existence. In the meantime, wouldn´t you assume the fact she was not dead was a possibility and openly declare that? Not if you are an investigator in Aruba. Somehow the lack of a body leads to a conclusion of death under the Aruba investigative logic. The news media most involved in this case in the United States ( mostly Fox News ) has bought into this approach and has talked all around the edges of the disappearance to the extent that one of their commentators ( whose looking out for the folks ) announced he had it on "good sources " that she was killed and dumped into the ocean. When challenged on this contention he referred to the F.B.I. as his source. Why , if that was known, wasn´t it confirmed with witnesses and evidence? The answer is obvious it was just another bit of bloviating that was to be taken on faith by the loyal listeners

One can certainly understand a wish for closure on this, but how is closure to be obtained by simply declaring what is not known must have happened? And what exactly did happen that would put a person´s mind at rest? A simple explanation that Natalee was killed without motive? That there was no evidence found because a perfect crime was possible by three teenagers involved in a murder that no one could verify or find any evidence of? Conflicting stories? Who would buy into this and settle for this as closure? What kind of mind(s) are willing to accept what is not factually proven and announce they are "now at peace"? Thousands of missing prisoners of war were never treated this way. People who went missing under all kinds of strange circumstances were considered to be lost but not dead until evidence showed otherwise. Yet in the Natalee Holloway disappearance a different and strange willingness to discount her life became the search for a body that never appeared and to this day is still only a conjecture.

Even if Natalee is never found it does not excuse the approach and the continuing evasion of the Aruba authorities. They can talk all they want about how justice is served under their system but if the Natalee Holloway disappearance is the standard ( which I´m sure it isn´t ) a verdict could never be rendered, a suspect never convicted and a criminal never arrested. There is only one agency that could keep this case under the wraps it has endured and that agency is the Aruba government. It has shown itself to be corrupt under the umbrella of incompetence which too many are willing is dismiss as sufficient and a reason for the lack of results.

This issue will never go away just by the passing of time. The circumstances will always lead to a conclusion that something was wrong and something was strange about how this disappearance was handled. It will always arouse curiosity and even though the perpetrators may die off and the case remain in the cold files the circumstances and the resolution cannot be pronounced solved until all of the facts are known and the disappearance of Natalee is explained.

The press could push this issue but it won´t because it waits for a break that will come from something other than its own curiosity. This news story is what Watergate would look like if Bernstein and Woodward had simply taken the approach the reporters of today have taken with regard to the disappearance of Natalee. Digging for the truth is no longer what reporters do. They wait for news from people calling in and then they respond like robots willing to take opinions at face value. The tenacious seeker of truth is no longer the ideal of the reporter of today. The Natalee Holloway disappearance will be the hallmark that will define the willingness to accept what is unacceptable. It is the story that journalism schools can point to where everyone in the business left a story to a faulty approach. Meanwhile in a brothel in a dark corner of the world may be the only person that can defy their theory with a shout of , "I´m not dead". All who have condemned her to this need to examine their conscience for the willingness to live with the unexplained. May it never happen to them.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/67075

My use of bold above.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Don't remember now, why I saved this.  Here are early RWV posts -

Granny, what part do you think Steve played. The boat that took Natalee out to sea & breaking into the hut ?
Posted by: ! | Oct 24, 2005 11:31:16 PM

Don't know there was or was not a role other than dumb. Figuring that one thing out might tell something. I said video but here is how Scuba put it:

Steve croes, the DJ, did not back them up until he heard Deepak discussing it on the phone while at the Cyberzone cafe a few days later.
Don't forget-there are TWO steve croes, and the one he may have called early in the morning from Santa Lucia, could be the other one, his friend.
Steve Croes the DJ was doing his watch on the Tattoo, and the boat's security systems confirm that.
Posted by: scubajap | Oct 24, 2005 6:34:36

I don't think she realized that the one who got the phone call out at Sta Lucia was the same Steve who worked the Tattoo & now C&Cs. I'm sure of the id because of an early news report identifying him living up there next door to his uncle Rufo. http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/17/missing.teen/

I haven't got any idea why Marcus Williams would have vouched for Steve's alibi if it were not true or how he was positive.

That leaves me to wonder who had the phone. And why. And why Joran would call this person up there.

Posted by: GrannyToad | Tuesday, October 25, 2005 at 12:36 AM