Natalee Case Discussion #763 7/6 - 7/11

[klaasend]

Did she really buy the plane tickets for him?  What a fool

Yes! (she reads here all the time - lets see her deny it - will not happen)

As for Peter & Patrick, i do think that they have put a lot of pressure on the Aruban authorities to find resolution. Patrick says that ALE has a "trump card". I won't hold my breath on that - but i can hope.

Thanks, I agree that there is more pressure on the Aruban authorities now but I'm not holding my breath either. 

Goodnight.

[igsigs]

And Peter is going after Paulus now - you know that i have always thought that angle was necessary.

Get Carlo on vid again. That guy is a wuss.

[Rob]

Did she really buy the plane tickets for him?  What a fool

Yes! (she reads here all the time - lets see her deny it - will not happen)

As for Peter & Patrick, i do think that they have put a lot of pressure on the Aruban authorities to find resolution. Patrick says that ALE has a "trump card". I won't hold my breath on that - but i can hope.

The only trump card I can think of is the name of the boat. Thus, the owner, and his phone records which show Joran did call him...

that's all I have.

[Blonde]

not that this is important, but in my opinion the guy that allegedly committed last nites robbery at the fashion boutique is the same exact person.


robbery suspect on left - marijuana gang member from Lorenzo bust on right

business robbed / attacked.


look at how he is dressed. Carpe would you wear that belt?


This guy should try out for the Aruba Model of the Year. He looks like he has the look!

Raunchy should make a call and rehabilitate this guy. 

Rob Look at his chin, I think it's the same guy, just a new look for him.

[Blonde]

From the last thread, a small post of interest regarding the sandals, cement, and a body.

******* wrote - "Yes,plenty of places including the cemetaries..It would be all too easy to put her in a hole and pour concrete on top of her."

I've never thougt that the cement at the VDS place could have been a diversion.  IIRC, there was construction going on, and perhaps cement being poured elsewhere.  Are there places a cement truck would have been out of place?  Places where a cement truck (or pouring by some other means) would not have been out of place at the time?  jmho

Also the backhoe, are there any reports of a backhoe being at the VDS property?  I think that is a good sized piece of equipment to get on the property and I'm thinking that someone would have seen or heard something.  There would be places that a backhoe would not be out of the ordinary.  imho

construction going on, and perhaps cement being poured elsewhere.  Are there places a cement truck would have been out of place?  Places where a cement truck (or pouring by some other means) would not have been out of place at the time?
Remember this picture someone posted

[MumInOhio]

Blonde...I am not sure, but that may be near the Racquet Club. There was a lot of construction at the Racqet Club in 2005, and villas were built near there as well...the pic may have come from Kermit, again not sure...

Caps….Would you mind please checking the latest database for Zedans and Arambatzis.  They appear to be multiplying like rabbits, both on Aruba and in Venezuela…Some are adding the name, Arambatzis, and others are dropping it! … Rodriguez appears to be the common denominator…Surprise…Surprise!

If you could post the latest database in Shango, it would be greatly appreciated…Thanks in Advance!

[Blonde]

Blonde...I am not sure, but that may be near the Racquet Club. There was a lot of construction at the Racqet Club in 2005, and villas were built near there as well...the pic may have come from Kermit, again not sure...

Mum you are right I was just pointing out lots of places that were under  construction at this same time.

[Buckeye]

caesu

(simple trick to get the  subscription articles shown is to change the URL a little as were it an article for the printer)

I can get this to work on archived articles.  Is there a trick to open the current subscription articles?  Maybe I am doing something wrong.  TIA

[beachwego]

Morning Monkeys! 

This guy, Dale Netherton, sure has written a lot of articles on Natalee's disappearance.  He brings up a lot of good points to consider...even though I dont agree with the human slavery aspect....I do think it fits in with the "after hours party" & "something bad happened" theory.  This particular article does make you consider the government's role in Natalee's disappearance in regards to the investigation & motive for coverup.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/8969

The Element of Motive
Dale Netherton
May 02, 2006
People do not commit crimes without a motive. The motive may be irrational, but it is what motivates them to violate the rights of another person or persons. The criminal expects that by violating a victim’s right to life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness they will gain or alleviate something that is impeding their wishes. Whether the criminal is seeking property or the elimination of a witness, they assume the violation of the victim’s rights will resolve the impediment to their desires. The criminal may be delusional, incompetent or simply vicious, but when they act, something moves them, even if they are acting in a blind rage to attack their victim. It may be so deranged that it is hardly comprehensible to a rational *******, but no one acts to violate the rights of another person without a motive unless they suffer from a random outburst of mental instability often referred to as insanity.. Thus, the insanity defense is the defense of last resort for criminal action. That is not what we are dealing with in the Natalee Holloway disappearance.

Someone(s) abducted Natalee. If she had simply run off as some naive pseudo-sleuths have proposed ,one would have to ask why and secondly why has she not been seen? This was no runaway bride scenario. Who runs away on a small island if escape is the motive? There are far better locations she had access to and there was no history of any discontent. There is nothing to indicate she was or is a runaway. Which brings us back to the motive of someone to abduct her. Why would anyone want Natalee? The first question then becomes, what did she possess that a criminal would want? Did she have a lot of cash on her person? Was she robbed and then murdered to prevent a witness from identifying the criminal? That conjecture certainly doesn’t fit with any of the evidence so far revealed. What then would motivate a criminal to abduct Natalee?

A young boy like Joran evidently had a desire to be with Natalee for some reason as he admits he was with her and they even expressed affection for each other. And one could conjecture that affection led to arousal and rape was the end result. This scenario has a lot of flaws. First of all, rape is a crime of violence and is not initiated by affection. Secondly, there is no evidence of a pattern of sexual violence by Joran and the likelihood that he was that overcome with passion that night would indicate someone desperate for a sexual encounter. Arriving after midnight to the “party” is hardly indicative of someone seeking desperately to have a sexual encounter. Joran was known by many girls and it strikes me as highly unlikely he would pick someone he had only known for a brief period as someone he desperately had to have sex with. And if he was going to achieve submission through affection would he invite other boys to tag along?

Enter the Kaploe brothers. Was this a gang rape gone bad? From what we know from Joran, he was not on a personal friend basis with the brothers. They ‘drove him around’. This was what he indicated on his interview on Fox with Greta Van Sustran. Whether he is believable is of course another question. But strictly from a motive standpoint ,why would three boys suddenly decide to accost a visiting female knowing she would not be easy. If she were easy and had invited them, there would have been no motive for harm. Joran didn’t know any easy marks for such an episode? Doesn’t fit with what we know of motivational behavior. Imagine Joran saying to the brothers,” I met this girl and I think we can rape her and hide her body so no one will find her”. And the brothers would reply, “ Yeah that sounds like a great plan.” If this sounds plausible I expect abduction by aliens would also fit.

This brings us back to what could have possibly happened to Natalee and who had a motive to do her harm? With sex and violence out of the picture and running away not credible, we have to look at the possibility that she was herself a valuable commodity to someone for some purpose. This would suggest an abduction for profit. And here we see the most plausible motive. There is human trafficking in the Carribean. This is known. There is the opportunity for abduction. There are visiting attractive young females. and there is a lot of money to be made from selling their “services” by those involved in the criminal trade. Whether Joran and his drivers had anything to do with abducting Natalee has yet to be proven. But the motive of a payoff or island privilges could very well have had a role in asisting the abduction of Natalee.

What specifically was the reason Joran considered Natalee someone he was interested in? If it was a casual encounter, does it follow that he would “make out” with her and just dump her with no further interest whatsoever? And if she was upset with him for some reason would she not have asked him to take her home? But what if someone said to Joran, “ If you will bring a girl to a specified location at a certain time you will be extended casino privileges. All you have to do is drop her off and leave. We’ll take care of the rest.” Is this so far fetched that it couldn’t happen and if it didn’t, then what is the answer to where Natale disappeared to? We have already considered the runaway scenario and the sex scenario and found them wanting. But what about this possibility?



This option has the issue of motive clearly established. And if money was the motive what would be the downside of attempting such an abduction? The downside for any criminal is getting caught. And how does a criminal avoid getting caught? Either he is so clever that he knows where law enforcment will be when he commits the crime or he has a connection that he can pay off to look the other way. Since the possibility of a police officer or a camera or a radar for boats leaving the island ( which I understand is under police jurisdiction) could spot some unusual behavior the buy off option is the most plausible. If you are in the highly lucrative human trafficking business one of the costs of doing business has to be avoiding confronntation with authorities by pay offs. There was probably not a concentration of this activity on one island as just a bank robber doesn’t hit a bank in the same vicinity if he suspects this may call too much attention to his activity. Suppose it just happened to be the night for an Aruba pickup and Joran simply picked Natalee because she mistook his attention for a genuine interest in her. He offered her a ride back to her hotel and took her to the pickup point, dropped her off and maybe doesn’t know what happened to her but that wasn’t his assignment.

Since he was seen with her it would have looked very suspicious if the polce has not at least picked him up. But what motivated them to be so secretive about their interrogation? Would it not have been a feather in their hat to grill him and the Kalpoe brothers, pitting them against each other until one finally cracked? There is no indication that the interrogation had any such element. The recorded conversation did not reveal anything significant. Why? If the boys had known what had happened after they dropped her off at the drop off point, wouldn’t they have discussed or speculated? Instead they talked in generalities and revealed nothing. Maybe this too was a ploy to show the world that the police was secrretly recording and trying to get answers for questions they already had answers they did not want to make public. It all fits so well with the motivation of money. Why would the police be protective of a potential criminal unless they wanted to be sure Joran and the Kalpoe brothers didn’t spill the beans. Getting Joran to go on television with instructions to avoid any implication of the authorities would also fit as an attempt to demonstrate his involvement was not significant. If they can get Joran exonerated by the public they are practically home free. For there is no known closer link to her disappearance. Making another arrest also diverts attention for Joran and further dilutes the case and this is the motive behind the display of ineptitude, the endless unproductive searching and the wild speculation , resignations and the portrayal of having cnducted an exhaustive search. For if it were found that the police had colluded with a ring of human traffickers the outrage by the populalce could bring down the government and the wrath of would be tourists. There is a huge amont of motivation that such involvement be diverted in any way it can be. But the facts of the case center around the motivation of the abductors and this aspect of the investigation has been almost avoided. It is the central driving force that explains why anyone would cause Natalee to disappear. Motive must be analyzed and openly discussed, for the why of the abducttion leads to the possible actors and their actions. Waiting for evidence to appear does not constitute an active investigation. The element of motive is a central component leading to possible suspicious behavior. Consider it carefully and you may come to some surprising conclusions that will make you wonder why certain avenues of investigation haven’t been and are not being pursued. For whatever your theory, motive must be a central component. And in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, it has mostly been overlooked.

[klaasend]

interview with Jörg from june 2007.

http://www.amigoe.com/cgi-bin/artikel/exec/view.cgi?archive=83&num=31674

public prosecutors on Aruba are:

Hans Mos, Frans van Deutekom, Dop Kruimel, Casper van der Schaft and Elivia Lugo.
Lugo is the only Aruba prosecutor.

i am going through the archives from 2005 until now to find anything about Deutekom.

article goes further about the political involvement in the OM.
Jörg send a report of alleged corruption of Rudy Croes to Curaçao.

if that link doesn't work this one might work:
http://www.amigoe.com/cgi-bin/artikel/exec/view.cgi?archive=83&num=31674&printer=1

(simple trick to get the  subscription articles shown is to change the URL a little as were it an article for the printer)

Nice trick!  Thanks!

For those that didn't catch this post last night, this is a cool trick that enables you to read articles that normally require a subscription:

Notice in the url where it says artikel:



This particular article is not suscription, but if I click on the print option you can see how the URL changes:



Now let's try the same thing on an article that is subscription only:









All you have to do is change the word ARTIKEL in the URL to PRINTER and you will get the article.

[bleachedblack]

not that this is important, but in my opinion the guy that allegedly committed last nites robbery at the fashion boutique is the same exact person.


robbery suspect on left - marijuana gang member from Lorenzo bust on right

business robbed / attacked.


look at how he is dressed. Carpe would you wear that belt?


This guy should try out for the Aruba Model of the Year. He looks like he has the look!

Raunchy should make a call and rehabilitate this guy. 

Rob Look at his chin, I think it's the same guy, just a new look for him.

.....looking at the store that was robbed, I think he did it! I think he stole the belt!

[johan555]

interview with Jörg from june 2007.

http://www.amigoe.com/cgi-bin/artikel/exec/view.cgi?archive=83&num=31674

public prosecutors on Aruba are:

Hans Mos, Frans van Deutekom, Dop Kruimel, Casper van der Schaft and Elivia Lugo.
Lugo is the only Aruba prosecutor.

i am going through the archives from 2005 until now to find anything about Deutekom.

article goes further about the political involvement in the OM.
Jörg send a report of alleged corruption of Rudy Croes to Curaçao.

if that link doesn't work this one might work:
http://www.amigoe.com/cgi-bin/artikel/exec/view.cgi?archive=83&num=31674&printer=1

(simple trick to get the  subscription articles shown is to change the URL a little as were it an article for the printer)

Nice trick!  Thanks!

For those that didn't catch this post last night, this is a cool trick that enables you to read articles that normally require a subscription:

Notice in the url where it says artikel:



This particular article is not suscription, but if I click on the print option you can see how the URL changes:



Now let's try the same thing on an article that is subscription only:









All you have to do is change the word ARTIKEL in the URL to PRINTER and you will get the article.

Haha klaas  thanks for the tip !!!!!!!!!

[bleachedblack]

beachwego wrote;

Morning Monkeys!

This guy, Dale Netherton, sure has written a lot of articles on Natalee's disappearance.  He brings up a lot of good points to consider...even though I dont agree with the human slavery aspect....I do think it fits in with the "after hours party" & "something bad happened" theory.  This particular article does make you consider the government's role in Natalee's disappearance in regards to the investigation & motive for coverup.

Here is a more current article written by Netherton from July 6th 2008. He discusses the slavery issue. You are right he is a very prolific writer. Sometimes the articles are good, sometimes not so.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/67407

[always 1]

Here is an article about rave parties - http://drugcaucus.senate.gov/ecstacymarshall.html

[Rob]

I've been thinking about Deutekom, and to me this guy DOES fit the profile of Dirty Hand by Shango. Several have pointed out that we have not been able to identify him for three years even though there are an army of finger police looking. When he was first ID'd by Caps several months ago that was my exact thought. HE IS / WAS UNIDENTIFIABLE. That is part of the key to identifying him.

Last night I was able to mix a few keywords and find some minor info on him. There wasn't much there, but the combo of words I used were -

Fiscal + Aruba
Fiscal + Deutekom
Fiscal prosecutor + Aruba
Fiscal OM + prosecutor + Aruba

Those are just a sample of combinations. I tried many more.

That alone told me that this is the person we have all been trying to find. The riddle indicates he is "hidden". He is hidden on the net also. This is basically Aruba's garbage man. He takes out the garbage and sometimes he re-arranges the garbage to appear as if it is a tasty meal.

A government as corrupt as Aruba's does need a person behind the scenes to make it all appear as if all is well, when in fact, it's all bubbling under the surface. That "bubbling" erupted on 5-30-2005. The after-shock is not able to be contained as it had been in the past.

In my own speculation Dirty Hand is the person most responsible for Aruba's panoramic (yet false) international image. This is the person that made the travel brochures seem real. When in fact it was as Hero described "a corrupt hornet's nest".

Aruba has a huge cushion of three years. They have hidden the master manipulator this entire time while they took a beating. I also speculate that hiding Dirty Hand was much more important that allowing tourism to sink into the sea. Dirty Hand can sink Aruba, but not without sinking himself also. They need each other.

There is probably not much of a document trail inside the archive of Aruba indicating exactly what Deutekom has actually done. This is the type of work that is accomplished and then the paper trail is destroyed. No sense allowing anyone to ever see those docs, so why take a chance. All of the back-room deals, bribery, and mega-corruption would all be exposed. That's the real tourism wrecker. It would also get the Arawaks to "light the fires and bang the drums"... no one in the MEP wants any of that. That's how people end up getting killed.

A small island nation like Aruba is not like the town you live in where the order of law rules the day. On Aruba when things go nuts, the "mob mentality" will come out of the wood work faster than you or I could imagine.

[ldstlou]

Morning Monkeys

Did we start a thread on van der straaten? If so, can you kindly point me to the door?

[klaasend]

Morning Monkeys

Did we start a thread on van der straaten? If so, can you kindly point me to the door?

Yes, right here:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.0

[Buckeye]

Thanks Klaas

Couple questions:

What do you mean by "click on print option"?

When do I use &printer=1 ?   

[Buckeye]

Rob

Aren't most Dutch, sent to Aruba for a limited time?  Do we have a date of Deutekom's arrival and any idea of the Aruban situation that led to his arrival on the island.  Was he a replacement for someone or an addition?

I do remember Paulus's philosophy that it is better to mediate a solution than to go to trial.

[beachwego]

Heya BB!  yes this article even makes me think back to the summer of 05 when Beth was on the island ...the man who was following her...the phone call from Posner (I think it was him), her phones being tapped..and the reason for changing hotels. 

Also, I think if one looks at the "issues" the Bethhaters continiously to this day, make such a big deal of...it gives you a little insight into who or what is behind them....