Natalee Case Discussion #765 7/15 - 7/22

[LilPuma]

If she was sick or in a coma, why didn't someone call 911? 

If she was sick or in a coma, why didn't someone call a responsible person to help?

Why would someone choose to just dispose of a body?  Living or dead?

Why didn't someone just leave her to be found by a responsible person?  Outside the hospital?  Police station?  Hotel?

Did she cry out for help and no one dialed 911?  Why not?

Whiskey Girl, it's not because they were young and scared.  Young and scared would call an ambulance and not be able to sleep.  It's because their DNA was on her and her body, dead or alive, showed evidence of a crime. 

As for what happened to her body, I always go back to what Joran has said.  So much of it is deception, but there's some truth to what he says.  The lies are intended to cover the truth as well as explain any evidence that anyone might have.    I always thought he and a friend buried her that night.  When the Twittys showed up, they told the story of her drinking, possibly doing drugs, falling.  Because if her body was found, they needed an explanation of the GHB and injuries she sustained at their hands.   Paulus and friends knew they needed to dispose of the body so there would be no case against Joran and they took care of that in some fashion.  After hearing Joran's confession to Patrick, I'm considering the possibility that Joran and one or more friends took her out into the ocean.  Remember, Joran also tells us he and Natalee were on the beach, she fell asleep, she was a awake and wanted him to stay; the story changes but he left her at the beach.  That's the ocean connection.  Now go to Aru-Bay videos and the piece of cloth and painting the rocks.  Could be a botched attempt to dispose of her body, it washed up near the rocks in the Aru-Bay videos, the cloth was Natalee's top, not fishnet.  From there, Paulus's friends step in to make sure there is no body and no case.  Joran also tells us he went to the casinos so he'd be on their security tapes.  So he needed an alibi for the evening of May 30th because that's when Natalee's body was finally disappeared. 

I agree with MrsKub that cremation is probably the only way to ensure that Natalee would never be found.  I do think it's possible they used a fish trap to put her in the ocean though. 

[LilPuma]

Psychologist Bram Bakker Joran is a psychopath!



Joran van der Sloot has no  conscience '

A psychiatric report of Joran van der Sloot would psychiatrist Erik Gerretsen very interested. "I am sincerely interested to hear a report on that boy," said Gerretsen, who works at the Forensic Psychiatric Service of the Ministry of Justice. "Because everything is incomprehensible. That lie, for example, what is it? It suggests that the boy lives in different realities." Van der Sloot leads to an antisocial personality disorder, believes psychologist Bram Bakker.
Bakker: "I do not diagnosis, but I say what strikes me at that boy. What still does not want to say that Joran is not responsible for his deeds. He simply has no conscience and act only from self-interest. He wanted nota bene still earn money in the affair. "
According to Bram Bakker act there is very little people like Joran. "You voost with a girl on the beach, which gets convulsions and death seem to go, and then you do not call the doctor but you dumped her into the sea. That is not typical. Fortunately, there are not many of those types." Psychiatric disorders are a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Bakker: "It is tempting to think that you Joran issue again when the father, who also wanted to save from the currency situation. From the conscience of man that I am not really impressed."

Also Gerretsen father believes that Van der Sloot a "remarkable role 'plays. Which, said he would not speculate. "You would first have to go after how that family structure is ."

Thank you, Johan,  Very interesting that no matter what the culture or language, Joran is considered a sociopath.  Who was it that said Joran is a sociopath, a guest on Nancy Grace or someone from the FBI team that was in Aruba? 

[LilPuma]

Joran told the True
Psychologist Corine the Ruiter



The public prosecutor wants know what happend when he was under the influence of narcotics during the conversations in the car. „
This is  not so  important. Narcotics will to slow down someone a bit , but it is not this way that you will tell all kinds of fantasia tales under the influence of cannabis.

trans via google ( i try to find a better translator ha ha )

Psychologist Corine the rider recognises the pattern which shows of of the ditch immediately. Much suspected show this behaviour. But Joran do it complete consistently. By Joke measured Corine the rider. Corine the rider. * Nieuwsthema - the disappearance of Natalee Holloway Utrecht, 6 febr. Also Corine the rider saw the `bekentenis' of Joran of of the ditch in zaak-Natalee the Holloway, Sunday evening for the hidden camera of godfather R. freezes. And the rider, professor forensic psychology within a couple minutes recognised from the university Maastricht, a pattern at the young man who blowend drunk to talk in the driver's mate chair. „Macho behaviour, the arrogance, the disrespect for frequently see the police force, them it at suspected which she examines as getuige-deskundige in criminal matters. „But here it was no slip or the tongue, was consistent. That was for me shocking. Whereas I have nevertheless seen a lot of these types. On its rag top the link of the retransmission twists. „Will find them its, Joran, say to entrepreneur Patrick of of the Eem. „No, say Joran. The rider: „How he looks at there, hè. Almost contented. `I have the control. That macho attitude, also that moment, which feeling-false-driven. It does not concern Natalee. It concerns him. He has not been caught. He counts on damages because he has been stuck undeserved. You see also a type lachje for its mouth. Joran: „I that agent has looked at right in its face. No word said. The rider: „That are possible them, this type chilly boys. Them is able someone gone stare. Joran: „Deepak and Satish. Stupid boys. The rider: „Joran let lie those boys for him. He looks at when he can use people. But he has no link with them. Your praat not this way denigrating concerning people who are your friends. What is the picture which you got? „The picture of a considerably antisocial boy. Very self-centred. A blown up feeling of eigenwaarde. A instrumentele relation with others. Lack of empathy. He talks concerning Natalee as if she is an use object. Vele smoking dope, gambling, little girls score, a certain fascination with the onderwereld. It tends to an antisocial life style and has appetites of psychopathy. Of course can you put no diagnosis on the basis of a television broadcast, emphasise the rider. For that much more knowledge is necessary concerning one's context. Everything what you see in the retransmission, you must verify. Not only the facts, also the behaviour. „But the picture are a lot persuading. Lying, playing on are appropriate the recherche, it all at each other. And if he not this type had characteristics, he have been differently handled the situation around Natalee. Cover-up are very calculating. He the next day has simply gone to school. YOU see never suspected yourself in these setting. How weet you what that with someone does? „I have, however, some faith that this truth Joran am. He says litterally of of the Eem: „I trust you. This, someone who trusts easily others would not be. He is on its qui vive, because he does not do be probably solicit that in order. Can it be that he lay to make impression on of of the Eem? „That must examine you. But it is more probable that he tells truth to nú, or sharing truth, then in a police force politieverhoor. On the baffle Joran describe the mangrove shrubs where he Natalee against have laid and the small boats which lie at the marriott hotel in sea. He zoekt to words. „That happen very truthful. It is a sign that he is in its memory for zoeken. But what I find incomprehensible, is that he says here that he is in panic. Why would you be in panic if someone becomes indisposed? Then the question comes on: he has not done nevertheless something as a result of which Natalee have died? But why he would that conceal whereas he talks this way freely? „It is a distrusting boy. He puts down a façade. It is possible something do has with deviante (derogatory) sexual operations. That is speculative, but those ideas rise at me. And thereby the tale of its shoes which have disappeared. And the fact that he says: If the lijk is found, then I hang. The public prosecutor wants know hoezeer he was under the influence of narcotics during the conversations in the car. „Nou, which are not this way important. Narcotics ontremmen a smattering, but it is not this way that you will tell all kinds of fantasia tales under the influence of cannabis. Do we have to be  have be frightened for Joran of of the ditch? „That he makes such a chilly impression, bears me, however, look. This way calculating institution is a risk factor for violence. Because he is thereby this way fool, he is also considerably krenkbaar. At the farewell she repeats that you no diagnosis can put on the basis of a television broadcast. And that she hopes that she has it wrong. „I hope that he is not what he seems be.

nrc handels blad

He wasn't on LSD, he was smoking dope.  Most of us know from experience - ourselves or others - that if you're high on alcohol or marijuana, you're more likely to blurt out the truth than make up some kind of story.  This is one more expert in the field who states what we know.  Difference is the experts could testify to it in court.  But the Prosecutor would have to bring the charges AND  have a reasonable expectation that he could gain a conviction.  I know many of you think Mos is dirty or spineless.  I think he doesn't want to let Joran say he was tried and found not guilty.  He knows he's up against dirty judges and there are no juries in Aruba. 

[LoRain]

Bravo!!!..excellent article...MO....

[klaasend]

Joran told the True
Psychologist Corine the Ruiter



The public prosecutor wants know what happend when he was under the influence of narcotics during the conversations in the car. „
This is  not so  important. Narcotics will to slow down someone a bit , but it is not this way that you will tell all kinds of fantasia tales under the influence of cannabis.

trans via google ( i try to find a better translator ha ha )

Psychologist Corine the rider recognises the pattern which shows of of the ditch immediately. Much suspected show this behaviour. But Joran do it complete consistently. By Joke measured Corine the rider. Corine the rider. * Nieuwsthema - the disappearance of Natalee Holloway Utrecht, 6 febr. Also Corine the rider saw the `bekentenis' of Joran of of the ditch in zaak-Natalee the Holloway, Sunday evening for the hidden camera of godfather R. freezes. And the rider, professor forensic psychology within a couple minutes recognised from the university Maastricht, a pattern at the young man who blowend drunk to talk in the driver's mate chair. „Macho behaviour, the arrogance, the disrespect for frequently see the police force, them it at suspected which she examines as getuige-deskundige in criminal matters. „But here it was no slip or the tongue, was consistent. That was for me shocking. Whereas I have nevertheless seen a lot of these types. On its rag top the link of the retransmission twists. „Will find them its, Joran, say to entrepreneur Patrick of of the Eem. „No, say Joran. The rider: „How he looks at there, hè. Almost contented. `I have the control. That macho attitude, also that moment, which feeling-false-driven. It does not concern Natalee. It concerns him. He has not been caught. He counts on damages because he has been stuck undeserved. You see also a type lachje for its mouth. Joran: „I that agent has looked at right in its face. No word said. The rider: „That are possible them, this type chilly boys. Them is able someone gone stare. Joran: „Deepak and Satish. Stupid boys. The rider: „Joran let lie those boys for him. He looks at when he can use people. But he has no link with them. Your praat not this way denigrating concerning people who are your friends. What is the picture which you got? „The picture of a considerably antisocial boy. Very self-centred. A blown up feeling of eigenwaarde. A instrumentele relation with others. Lack of empathy. He talks concerning Natalee as if she is an use object. Vele smoking dope, gambling, little girls score, a certain fascination with the onderwereld. It tends to an antisocial life style and has appetites of psychopathy. Of course can you put no diagnosis on the basis of a television broadcast, emphasise the rider. For that much more knowledge is necessary concerning one's context. Everything what you see in the retransmission, you must verify. Not only the facts, also the behaviour. „But the picture are a lot persuading. Lying, playing on are appropriate the recherche, it all at each other. And if he not this type had characteristics, he have been differently handled the situation around Natalee. Cover-up are very calculating. He the next day has simply gone to school. YOU see never suspected yourself in these setting. How weet you what that with someone does? „I have, however, some faith that this truth Joran am. He says litterally of of the Eem: „I trust you. This, someone who trusts easily others would not be. He is on its qui vive, because he does not do be probably solicit that in order. Can it be that he lay to make impression on of of the Eem? „That must examine you. But it is more probable that he tells truth to nú, or sharing truth, then in a police force politieverhoor. On the baffle Joran describe the mangrove shrubs where he Natalee against have laid and the small boats which lie at the marriott hotel in sea. He zoekt to words. „That happen very truthful. It is a sign that he is in its memory for zoeken. But what I find incomprehensible, is that he says here that he is in panic. Why would you be in panic if someone becomes indisposed? Then the question comes on: he has not done nevertheless something as a result of which Natalee have died? But why he would that conceal whereas he talks this way freely? „It is a distrusting boy. He puts down a façade. It is possible something do has with deviante (derogatory) sexual operations. That is speculative, but those ideas rise at me. And thereby the tale of its shoes which have disappeared. And the fact that he says: If the lijk is found, then I hang. The public prosecutor wants know hoezeer he was under the influence of narcotics during the conversations in the car. „Nou, which are not this way important. Narcotics ontremmen a smattering, but it is not this way that you will tell all kinds of fantasia tales under the influence of cannabis. Do we have to be  have be frightened for Joran of of the ditch? „That he makes such a chilly impression, bears me, however, look. This way calculating institution is a risk factor for violence. Because he is thereby this way fool, he is also considerably krenkbaar. At the farewell she repeats that you no diagnosis can put on the basis of a television broadcast. And that she hopes that she has it wrong. „I hope that he is not what he seems be.

nrc handels blad

This was from February 2008 and we did a front page on it:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/06/joran-van-der-sloot-a-psycho-so-says-foresic-psychologist-corine-de-ruiter/

[LoRain]

Brave!!!...excellent article...MO....

Well it must be twice as good...can't get typo post deleted....

[klaasend]

Brave!!!...excellent article...MO....

Well it must be twice as good...can't get typo post deleted....

I deleted it for you    Members don't have the ability to edit or delete their own posts here either, for the same reason we don't have PM's, it all goes back to September/October 2005 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Brave!!!...excellent article...MO....

Well it must be twice as good...can't get typo post deleted....

Only Admins & Moderators can edit.  We all make typos, and your fix was understood.

[2NJSons_Mom]

   Klaas!

[dennisintn]

[quote  And that she hopes that she has it wrong. „I hope that he is not what he seems be.

nrc handels blad
[/quote]

if jvds wasn't exactly what he seems to be to her, and most of us, natalee would be at U.A. with fond memories behind her and a bright future as a physician in front of her, and aruba could still call itself "the happy island".
dennisintn

[LilPuma]

Don't know where I was that day that I missed this on the FP.  I do like that the Dutch experts are reiterating what those in the US have said.  Thanks to Peter, Joran's sympathy stock plummeted and the likelihood of a lawsuit, let alone a successful one, in Aruba or in a civil suit in the US dropped like a rock.  Joran, Paulus and Anita, along with Joe Tacopina were probably all seeiing dollar signs until Peter and Patrick exposed him and the Dutch made the same determinations that we had a long time ago.  From that FP article: 


“It’s not about Natalee. It’s all about him. He got away with it. He is counting on compensation for being unjustly held in police custody.”
 
“Such a scheming mindset us a risk factor for violence. And since Joran is so narcissistic, he easily feel offended.” (Peter R. De Vries.com)
 
So easily offended that he is capable of anything. If Joran would throw a glass of wine in the eyes of a person with people around including his parents, what is he capable of doing when no one is there to see his actions?

Joran started by killing his dog, beating up his brother, tussling with tourists and chollers, trolling for tourists to have sex with.  Then came rape and manslaughter.  Is first degree murder on the horizon for Joran? 

[dennisintn]

[
[/quote]

He wasn't on LSD, he was smoking dope.  Most of us know from experience - ourselves or others - that if you're high on alcohol or marijuana, you're more likely to blurt out the truth than make up some kind of story.  This is one more expert in the field who states what we know.  Difference is the experts could testify to it in court.  But the Prosecutor would have to bring the charges AND  have a reasonable expectation that he could gain a conviction.  I know many of you think Mos is dirty or spineless.  I think he doesn't want to let Joran say he was tried and found not guilty.  He knows he's up against dirty judges and there are no juries in Aruba. 

[/quote]

puma, i agree with you wholeheartedly.  mos has now seen just how far the judges there will go to "NOT" convict jvds or anyone with "connections".  for every expert or witness mos can produce, the defense can and will provide bought and paid for experts and witnesses to refute, and the judges will take the defense arguments as gospel. 
dennisintn

[LilPuma]

Brave!!!...excellent article...MO....

Well it must be twice as good...can't get typo post deleted....

I deleted it for you    Members don't have the ability to edit or delete their own posts here either, for the same reason we don't have PM's, it all goes back to September/October 2005 

I don't know what happened at SM, I wasn't a member then, but on another Holloway board, some posters used "edit" and "delete" to make it look like others said what they had said.  People were banned, reprimanded or otherwise blamed for things they didn't do.  So while I sometimes wish I could edit my posts, I haven't found it to be a big problem here. 

[klaasend]

Brave!!!...excellent article...MO....

Well it must be twice as good...can't get typo post deleted....

I deleted it for you    Members don't have the ability to edit or delete their own posts here either, for the same reason we don't have PM's, it all goes back to September/October 2005 

I don't know what happened at SM, I wasn't a member then, but on another Holloway board, some posters used "edit" and "delete" to make it look like others said what they had said.  People were banned, reprimanded or otherwise blamed for things they didn't do.  So while I sometimes wish I could edit my posts, I haven't found it to be a big problem here. 

Exactly what happened at SM and we decided to eliminate the problem 

[muisje]

Are there any of our Dutch posters on right now?
I am curious as to what this word means-afkickkliniek .

I am sort of guessing since the context of the sentence is talking about Natalee and her being a drug abuser. That it is referring to a rehab type place.

Sick , sick , author( Gillien) needs to be in some sort of rehab place herself. JMHO
Sam

Hi Sam,

Sorry for this late reply, I just get in (timedifference)
You are right: afkickkliniek means clinic for rehabilitation (for drugs or other kinds of addictions)

[LoRain]

Well....lol...I guess the article was brave....but what I meant to post was "Bravo".....either way it's still a good article...thanks Klaasend....I too have seen some playing around with edit buttons...from admins!!...(but not here)....

[klaasend]

Well....lol...I guess the article was brave....but what I meant to post was "Bravo".....either way it's still a good article...thanks Klaasend....I too have seen some playing around with edit buttons...from admins!!...(but not here)....

Yes we had that problem as well back in 2005 and fired most of the Admins/Mods that were here at the time.  Messing around with peoples posts, except to correct obvious errors upon request, edit out direct links to offensive sites or edit out unacceptable cuss words, is not desireable or acceptable.   If a moderator here makes a mistake in judgement, they are told and if they continue they are no longer a moderator.

[klaasend]

Posted by Glenda at RU regarding the recent article in Bondia about Joran confessing again in Thailand:

Tin indicacion cu un biaha mas tin cintanan di
grabacion cu ta contene confesion cu Joran vd Sloot lo
a haci, pero e biaha aki durante su estadia na
Tailandia.

There is indication that one more time there is a tape recording containing a confession made by JvdS, but this time it was during his stay in Thailand.

[carpe noctem]

Psychologist Bram Bakker Joran is a psychopath!



Joran van der Sloot has no  conscience '

A psychiatric report of Joran van der Sloot would psychiatrist Erik Gerretsen very interested. "I am sincerely interested to hear a report on that boy," said Gerretsen, who works at the Forensic Psychiatric Service of the Ministry of Justice. "Because everything is incomprehensible. That lie, for example, what is it? It suggests that the boy lives in different realities." Van der Sloot leads to an antisocial personality disorder, believes psychologist Bram Bakker.
Bakker: "I do not diagnosis, but I say what strikes me at that boy. What still does not want to say that Joran is not responsible for his deeds. He simply has no conscience and act only from self-interest. He wanted nota bene still earn money in the affair. "
According to Bram Bakker act there is very little people like Joran. "You voost with a girl on the beach, which gets convulsions and death seem to go, and then you do not call the doctor but you dumped her into the sea. That is not typical. Fortunately, there are not many of those types." Psychiatric disorders are a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Bakker: "It is tempting to think that you Joran issue again when the father, who also wanted to save from the currency situation. From the conscience of man that I am not really impressed."

Also Gerretsen father believes that Van der Sloot a "remarkable role 'plays. Which, said he would not speculate. "You would first have to go after how that family structure is ."

Johan...is this a current article?  We aren't doctors of psychiatry but Bakker isn't saying anything that hasn't been said here.

Yep! ...but at least Bram recognizes that Joran is a psychopath.

Joran lives in a parallel universe. He is making it up as he goes along,

and leaving a swath of destruction in his path.

...and there are many people that are simply standing by letting it happen,

and they could put a stop to it.

[always 1]

Carpe, loved your comments earlier about Dompig, but didnt get a chance to say so!