Lively Case Discussion #485 7/1 - 7/3/2006

[Anna]

Be sure to read this warning from the Alabama Seciruties and Exchange Commission:

http://tinyurl.com/z3kfh

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[crazybabyborg]

Can the H/T’s sue Carlos-n-Charlies and the Excelsior Casino?  Wouldn’t bringing the action at least give them an opportunity to people on the ground in Aruba and do a proper investigation?

This all just seems too simple to me and should have been solved quickly, if there was any serious investigation undertaken by the proper authorities in Aruba.

Joran and friends enter a familiar bar not long before closing and single out their prey, which is probably the first girl in the place willing to talk to them for more than five minutes.  He lures his victim away from her crowd by talking her into going to a less crowed bar on the other side of the joint where he probably knows the bartender.  He gives the bartender a nod and slips him an extra twenty for two shots of 151.  Minutes later Natalee feels light-headed and dizzy.  Joran assures her it is just from the strong drink and offers to walk her outside to get fresh air and walk off the effect.

Natalee had enough to drink that she was not being as cautious as she normally would have been and she was probably under the impression that Joran was also staying at the Holiday Inn.  She agrees to walk out of the bar with the creep and he leads her toward the back parking lot.  He then convinces her to sit down in the car, or he pushes her into it and they drive away.

We do not know for certain what she said as they passed by a group of her friends.  We have heard different accounts and the Dutch re-enactment has too many flaws to be believable.  Maybe Joran did tell Deepak to circle the bar a few times to reassure Natalee and give the drug more time to take effect.  That is uncertain, but at some point Natalee began to drift into unconsciousness while being groped by the big Dutch kid.

They did not go to the lighthouse, or to the beach.  They went straight to Joran’s apartment and she was carried into the place.  That is where she began “to talk crazy” and that is when Joran became concerned about waking his dear old dad.  Then “something bad happened” to Natalee and that was probably an effort to keep her quiet.  The big jerk either hit her, knocked her down and she hit her head causing a mortal wound, or he grabbed her and while trying to muffle her screams he broke her neck.

That is basically what I think happened up to that time and caused her death, but the mystery begins after that tragedy.  What happened next?  How would these three characters react to such a thing?  What would be their first step?

Can we think like these three guys and determine a logical progression based upon the theory I have put forth?

I'm right with you. I keep trying to layer Freddy in, but am unsure where exactly to put him. The recorded van conversation tells me that Freddy is a key player in this, along with JK2.
Beth agrees with the scenario too. She has said many times that they know Natalee was taken to Joran's apt. but what happened after, is what they want to find out.

[Kat_Gram]

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There is a long post in the comments on Red's article about date rape drugs.  I sent it to Klaas as am not sure if it is good to post it here or not so she can decide.  I don't think you can make a link to a certain comment or at least I don't know how.  Maybe Klaas will or just post the whole comment as it is yet another stunner.

But it is mostly about Michael Posner and his act not being so clean of late as we have been led to believe.  

More lies, Aruba???

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Did anyone ever think he was clean ? Ever. He just moved his act to where the climate was more how you say ... friendly ?

[Tylergal]

Be sure to read this warning from the Alabama Seciruties and Exchange Commission:

http://tinyurl.com/z3kfh

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Great post, Anna.

[Tylergal]

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There is a long post in the comments on Red's article about date rape drugs.  I sent it to Klaas as am not sure if it is good to post it here or not so she can decide.  I don't think you can make a link to a certain comment or at least I don't know how.  Maybe Klaas will or just post the whole comment as it is yet another stunner.

But it is mostly about Michael Posner and his act not being so clean of late as we have been led to believe.  

More lies, Aruba???

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Did anyone ever think he was clean ? Ever. He just moved his act to where the climate was more how you say ... friendly ?

Well, some of our newspaper reporters referred to them (Posners) as upstanding Aruban partners, er uh, I mean citizens.

[Anna]

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A while back someone asked me about how I knew of suicides of two young males in Aruba that seem suspicious to me, think it may have been Louise.  Well, I ran across this while looking for something else this morning.  My filing system leaves a lot to be desired but I never guessed I would be needing things over a year later and so did not even label most of them.  Now I can't find anything.

Anyway, this is about them and is the thread where their strange deaths were discussed:


Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject:    
 
Here's one Jaci  

This is from poster expat from back in June...

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?p=23574#23574
good morning everyone...

I have been following this forum for the past couple of weeks now and have gained much insight from reading here....many thanks.

For those of you who may be interested, I would like to share an experience my husband and I had in Aruba some three years ago...we were on one of our many trips to Aruba and were staying at LaCabana resort. Our time there was during the first anniversary of 9/11, so there were not many tourists on the island at the time.

We were staying in a top floor unit, located in the back of the resort, facing the highway. One morning as we were preparing to start our day and heading to our car in the parking lot below, we were shocked to see that a young Aruban male had deliberately jumped to his death from the roof of the resort above us. Due to polis and rescue personnel, we delayed in leaving as planned.

As troubling as we felt this event was at the time, we were even more surprised to learn that a similar suicide had occurred two weeks earlier at the Hyatt....again some young Aruban male had lept to his death from this resort.

Little or no mention was made of the suicide in the local newspapers during our days to follow in Aruba.......we wondered why it got so little attention. In talking to the locals there and mentioning this most troubling of events, we were told at that time that chances were, both guys were in serious trouble with drug dealers on the islands,,,,,columbians, most likely, and that these folks are ruthless.....these two, chances are, leapt to their deaths to spare their immediate families of any repercussions from these drug lords....
_________________
 
 

[Tylergal]

Yep.  I'm changing my name to "Clueless"...would someone please post who ArbeeJ and Dayo are?  TIA.  And good morning monkeys.  BBL to check for a response.  Great photos and links, Klaas.  Thank you!

Tidycat, do you remember Arlee, ArbeeJ or Rhonda who was Dash/Alana's mother, who once posted here, and for some reason unbeknownst to me, decided to post with Roger at Scrux and later on moved to RWV and Refugees.  Her daughter was said to have been tutored by Natalee, in order that she would pass her calculus classes and she was said to be one of the last or maybe the last MB kids who saw Natalee, and who asked her if she was ok, and Natalee responded that she was and was "going back with them.." and she assumed she meant "them" to be another group of MB kids.

About Dayo Gould, another puzzle in this rapidly expanding jigsaw.

[Anna]

[Did anyone ever think he was clean ? Ever. He just moved his act to where the climate was more how you say ... friendly ?

We were first told by a trusted Aruban poster that it wasn't even the same Michael Posner and that this one was born on the island.   Then every one of them just about has spoken of his high character and status as an upstanding member of the community.

So, yes, Kat Gram, I did think he was clean.  I am a bit naive and tend to try to think the best of people sometimes.    

[crazybabyborg]

Guess you can tell I'm catching up..................just got to the earring discussion.  Yes, she does have the same earrings in all photos, as Klaas has established. I can't help but laugh. If anyone is as big a fan of big earrings as I am, check out "Tabra". They are all hand made, and gorgeous. I've been collecting them for years.

http://www.siouxeagle.com/Tabra/Tabra%20Earrings/tabra_earrings.htm

[klaasend]

Here is the post Anna was referring to:

grande Says:
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:35 am
“On September 20 2005, MSNBCtelevision news journalist Rita Cosby interviewed an FBI agent who identified Posner as a convicted felon with alleged organized crime ties. Posner’s casino, the Excelsior, has been implicated in the Natalee Holloway disappearance.”

Michael is also the owner of Brickel Bay Beach Club in Aruba, as well as, multiple online gambling sites affiliated with the Excelsior Casino. Also registered in the same office is Aruba Aloe with Luis Posner being a registered officer. The Posner’s also have business interests in Curacao and the Aruba Free Zone along with Jossy Mansur and Co. “Curaçao’s major container port is St. Annabaai. The major food wholesalers are Consales, J.P. Maal, Posner’s Agencies, and C. Winkel and Zomen”

Early on in the investigation, Jossy Mansur essentially called Mike Posner out for what he is, a lifelong criminal affiliated with the infamous Chicago Outfit. Jossy noted that Mike was released from prison on parole in 1992. http://i3.tinypic.com/16ggwuh.jpg. The motives for this article are questionable at minimum.

At some point during the investigation, Mike stated through his attorney that he has been clean for 15 years. According to the New York Department of Justice Michael has been anything but clean. “In January, federal prosecutors in New York issued an 88-count indictment charging 17 defendants with operating an illegal gambling business that, over the last four years, brokered more than $200 million in bets on horse racing and other sporting events.”

Based on the Federal Indictment multiple simulcast affiliates have cut the Excelsior off including the Lincoln Park Track and the Birmingham track.

In a simple public search of the Florida Secretary of State Corporate Division you will see that Luis Posner registered Aruba Aloe in Florida under the name ‘Aruba Aloe of America’ http://i5.tinypic.com/16giepz.jpg, with a principal business address at XXX Brickell Avenue Suite XXXX in Miami. Also at XXX Brickell Avenue Suite XXXX you will find a business by the name of PLAINVIEW, INC. registered with a Perdro Martin as an officer.

County Clerk records outline the various transactions the Mansur’s and Posner’s have made in the Miami as well Plantation, Florida.

Scared Monkeys administration confirmed the origin of the Shango posts were from Florida. I cannot confirm that, however it is rather ironic to me that the Aruba Tourism Authority, Aruba Air and apparently Curacao is now in Plantation Florida > http://i5.tinypic.com/16gkg79.jpg along with Luis/Mike/Walter/Oiky/Israel/Ron Posner (Rufus NV) and presumably the rest of the ABC crew. You will find little if any formal documents regarding Michael in the states without a Freedom of Information act request. I would suspect that is based on his past and potentially current litigation and criminal activity. Perhaps Michael is a silent partner and the source of the seed capital also known as dirty money, for the familia.

Shango, your reference ‘All secrets are hidden in Plainview’, does this suggest that the Posner’s know more than they have lead on ? Perhaps this was a reference to the short surveillance video provided by the Excelsior or perhaps something more sinister.

In any case, I firmly believe Michael William Posner knows more than he has stated publicly.


REGARDING PLANTATION FLORIDA - >

http://tinyurl.com/z3kfh

Thomas E. Twitty, Jr., Bowron, Latta & Wasden, P.C.
Mobile, Alabama Practicing in Securities


Note:  I'm not sure about the Thomas E. Twitty reference above

[msmarple]

Hi monkeys, this is just a flyby. A comment on the earrings:

Many women - and high school girls - make jewelry these days. I think NH's look like they might have been made for her, maybe by a friend. (If NH was into making them, I think we probaby would have heard by now about it?)

Both of my daughters make jewelry for themselves and each other. Exact length, material, stone, etc. they want ... and no two pair alike.

[Tylergal]

Thomas E. Twitty is a securities attorney out of Mobile.

[Anna]

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Off to finish my work so I can listen in tonight.  Dr Rosenthal on TV said sunscreen does NOT block out the most harmful rays of the sun, only the ones that cause sunburn!  He said only zinc oxide or special sunblockers get the bad rays that lead to melanoma and other forms of skin cancer.  That is the white stuff life guards put on their noses or you can get a whole tube of it for a dollar or two as diaper rash ointment.  Thing is, who is going to smear that all over??  And get on clothing.   Very hard to remove but he said it would block it all.  

I am sure it would but your appearance would be very startling to say the least.  It is hard to apply, too.  

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[Tylergal]

Hi monkeys, this is just a flyby. A comment on the earrings:

Many women - and high school girls - make jewelry these days. I think NH's look like they might have been made for her, maybe by a friend. (If NH was into making them, I think we probaby would have heard by now about it?)

Both of my daughters make jewelry for themselves and each other. Exact length, material, stone, etc. they want ... and no two pair alike.

LOL.  I was going to say that my DIL who lives in Bham makes jewelry like that in her spare time, or did until her baby was born last June.  She also sells to stores in the Seaside and Dunes of Destin area and I believe I saw the top that Natalee was wearing on the Seaside website, which I posted here once.  Lots of people in MB have summer homes at Seaside and Watercolor.

[Tylergal]

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Off to finish my work so I can listen in tonight.  Dr Rosenthal on TV said sunscreen does NOT block out the most harmful rays of the sun, only the ones that cause sunburn!  He said only zinc oxide or special sunblockers get the bad rays that lead to melanoma and other forms of skin cancer.  That is the white stuff life guards put on their noses or you can get a whole tube of it for a dollar or two as diaper rash ointment.  Thing is, who is going to smear that all over??  And get on clothing.   Very hard to remove but he said it would block it all.  

I am sure it would but your appearance would be very startling to say the least.  It is hard to apply, too.  

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Anna, are you saying it would have the opposite effect of a pheremone?

[Nut44x4]

I suppose I will wait relentlesly in the hopes of a judges decision in NY. I have to say that IF tacojoe reads any forums at all (which I doubt)...that it would be this one and not Refugees. IF he does read in THAT place, hopefully he will see by the "Topics' in general, that he would deem them all as freaks. He is a good lawyer, no matter what some say about him and he does know what is right and wrong in any case.....He may not always be on the RIGHT side, in our opinions but.....just reading through the topics there (At Refs) will give the normal human being a sense of reality. They are whacked...and they all have the nerve to call us "conspiracy theorist", when in fact they are the biggest conspiracy theorists of all. You don't even have to read the posts.....just scan through the topics.....it is pathetic.  He (Taco) has to know that those people are whacked.

[Kat_Gram]

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Off to finish my work so I can listen in tonight.  Dr Rosenthal on TV said sunscreen does NOT block out the most harmful rays of the sun, only the ones that cause sunburn!  He said only zinc oxide or special sunblockers get the bad rays that lead to melanoma and other forms of skin cancer.  That is the white stuff life guards put on their noses or you can get a whole tube of it for a dollar or two as diaper rash ointment.  Thing is, who is going to smear that all over??  And get on clothing.   Very hard to remove but he said it would block it all.  

I am sure it would but your appearance would be very startling to say the least.  It is hard to apply, too.  

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So, put diaper rash ointment on the nose ?
I just use sunscreen for kids.. 40 SPF.
My old skin doctor told me to stay out of the sun. This was after he removed several pre cancerous things from my face. That was 18 years ago. I used to love to bake in the sun. Bad thing to do.
I go to the waterslides and the beach once in a while but am all smeared up with goo goo. If I miss a spot with the goo goo, it just tuns red and
itchy. I get sunscreen moisturizer and use it all year. The suns rays off the SNOW ( yes snow... it is 85 degrees here now )  in the winter is also very damaging. The ozone layer is different and more damaging rays come thru.

[Peaches]

I suppose I will wait relentlesly in the hopes of a judges decision in NY. I have to say that IF tacojoe reads any forums at all (which I doubt)...that it would be this one and not Refugees. IF he does read in THAT place, hopefully he will see by the "Topics' in general, that he would deem them all as freaks. He is a good lawyer, no matter what some say about him and he does know what is right and wrong in any case.....He may not always be on the RIGHT side, in our opinions but.....just reading through the topics there (At Refs) will give the normal human being a sense of reality. They are whacked...and they all have the nerve to call us "conspiracy theorist", when in fact they are the biggest conspiracy theorists of all. You don't even have to read the posts.....just scan through the topics.....it is pathetic.  He (Taco) has to know that those people are whacked.

I think Taco depends on Medley to keep him in the loop.  Everytime there is something on TV, she frantically emails Joe to let him know.  Give me a freaking break.

[Kat_Gram]

I suppose I will wait relentlesly in the hopes of a judges decision in NY. I have to say that IF tacojoe reads any forums at all (which I doubt)...that it would be this one and not Refugees. IF he does read in THAT place, hopefully he will see by the "Topics' in general, that he would deem them all as freaks. He is a good lawyer, no matter what some say about him and he does know what is right and wrong in any case.....He may not always be on the RIGHT side, in our opinions but.....just reading through the topics there (At Refs) will give the normal human being a sense of reality. They are whacked...and they all have the nerve to call us "conspiracy theorist", when in fact they are the biggest conspiracy theorists of all. You don't even have to read the posts.....just scan through the topics.....it is pathetic.  He (Taco) has to know that those people are whacked.

I go there once in a while also and am very shocked at the version of reality over there. It's like an alternate universe. Glenda is Julia according to most. She still believes that Natalee ran away and had help from the MB students. Plus that Beth is under investigation. But there are never any " sources " that any one can check. They hide behind niks and say the most disturbing and vile things. I don't know who runs Refugees. Or what their reason for existing is. Frank thought they were Canadians, but they must be imports. There are alot of Dutch words and little sayings so that must be the nationality of many of them. The only one that I find disturbing is Glenda because Julia has that rag in Aruba.

[Kat_Gram]

Yep.  I'm changing my name to "Clueless"...would someone please post who ArbeeJ and Dayo are?  TIA.  And good morning monkeys.  BBL to check for a response.  Great photos and links, Klaas.  Thank you!

Tidycat, do you remember Arlee, ArbeeJ or Rhonda who was Dash/Alana's mother, who once posted here, and for some reason unbeknownst to me, decided to post with Roger at Scrux and later on moved to RWV and Refugees.  Her daughter was said to have been tutored by Natalee, in order that she would pass her calculus classes and she was said to be one of the last or maybe the last MB kids who saw Natalee, and who asked her if she was ok, and Natalee responded that she was and was "going back with them.." and she assumed she meant "them" to be another group of MB kids.
Does - - - 's Mumma say those horrid things ?

About Dayo Gould, another puzzle in this rapidly expanding jigsaw.