Lively Case Discussion #485 7/1 - 7/3/2006

[klaasend]

Another thought to stir the pot before I head out...

If it was just fear of uncovering illicit activities like gambling or porno, the high rollers involved would serve Joran up as a sacrificial lamb and pin it on him to deflect attention from themselves. They would NOT protect Joran.

They are protecting THEMSELVES. They are covering up the fact that they somehow DIRECTLY had a hand in Natalee's disappearance/death, and that Joran is just a cog in the wheel.

One thing SB.  We have been told that Joran was home on his computer at 3-3:30 that night.  How do we know it was Joran?  Couldn't it have been Freddy or Paulus or someone else?

[klaasend]

Now I'm really gone...nite

[sb]

One thing SB.  We have been told that Joran was home on his computer at 3-3:30 that night.  How do we know it was Joran?  Couldn't it have been Freddy or Paulus or someone else?

IF Freddy or Paulus is contacting Deepak (which appears to be what was done with the computer, among other things), we have a larger circle of perps. Which is EXACTLY what I am thinking. We have a system in place; if you will, a conspiracy.

It implies premeditation, planning, organization, etc. of a number of people.

[sb]

I guess I put everyone to sleep!

i'm gonna check out for the night... see y'all tomorrow...

[Tylergal]

I guess I put everyone to sleep!

i'm gonna check out for the night... see y'all tomorrow...

Sb, you did not put me to sleep. I am sending you an e-mail and I would like a respones, s'il vous plait.

[Tylergal]

Another thought to stir the pot before I head out...

If it was just fear of uncovering illicit activities like gambling or porno, the high rollers involved would serve Joran up as a sacrificial lamb and pin it on him to deflect attention from themselves. They would NOT protect Joran.

They are protecting THEMSELVES. They are covering up the fact that they somehow DIRECTLY had a hand in Natalee's disappearance/death, and that Joran is just a cog in the wheel.

One thing SB.  We have been told that Joran was home on his computer at 3-3:30 that night.  How do we know it was Joran?  Couldn't it have been Freddy or Paulus or someone else?

Yes, but Melody has already told us Freddy was at Joran's house that night.

[sb]

OK, I'll take a look... thanks!

Do be careful with whatever you uncover. I get a little worried that someone is going to put their hand in that fire a bit too much.

I have a feeling when that "onion" is unpeeled, that there is going to be some very powerful people in the middle, who really don't much care who they hurt.

[Tylergal]

Well, honestly, it's probably not a big person at all.  My thoughts are more mundane than that, as in small fish, not big fry.

[Kat_Gram]

Another thought to stir the pot before I head out...

If it was just fear of uncovering illicit activities like gambling or porno, the high rollers involved would serve Joran up as a sacrificial lamb and pin it on him to deflect attention from themselves. They would NOT protect Joran.

They are protecting THEMSELVES. They are covering up the fact that they somehow DIRECTLY had a hand in Natalee's disappearance/death, and that Joran is just a cog in the wheel.

One thing SB.  We have been told that Joran was home on his computer at 3-3:30 that night.  How do we know it was Joran?  Couldn't it have been Freddy or Paulus or someone else?

Someone was on the computer.
As for who is the catalyst for the cover up :
Paulus. Because he is the only one who has the motive ( protect Joran ) at any cost.
Paulus. Because he is the one who knows the Dutch laws.
Paulus. Bacause he has friends in the prosecutors office.
Paulus. Because he has connection in the police department.
Paulus . Because he has influential friends.
Paulus has the will to defend his son in the face of everything he knows.
No one is going to come forward for the money. They either have enough OR there just is too much at stake to come clean.

 

Yes, but Melody has already told us Freddy was at Joran's house that night.

[Sue]

Sheesh just when I was hungry too

[ldstlou]

Beth has NEVER explicitly said that Joran "KILLED" Natalee, in any public statement (or otherwise) that I have heard of. She always leaves the thing out there as "the 3 guys know what happened to her".

We have established the 3 AM phone call as an actual event, if I recall. I think nonesuche confirmed it in so many words and there was a strong indication that the family stood behind that fact.

That phone call to me virtually abolishes any idea that Joran killed Natalee by his own hand.

FWIW, I never HAVE believed Carlos the Columbian.

I'm back!! Can I ask why you think the phone call eliminates Joran?

[sb]

I'm back!! Can I ask why you think the phone call eliminates Joran?

It's complicated, but I'll summarize by saying that the longer Natalee lived that night, the greater the likelihood that Joran had assistance in whatever happened to her at the end. If she lives till 3 or 4 AM, he almost HAS to have had someone else participating in some way. And yes, if Freddy is establishing an alibi at 3 AM while Joran is off doing... whatever... it was, there is a wider ring of people involved here.

The evidence, scarce as it is, SEEMS to indicate that Joran and Paulus can be tracked to the McD at 4 AM. By that time he either has killed and disposed of Natalee, or handed her off.  Unless he did something after the phone call, to her, all on his own. That call was supposed to have more like 3:15 AM actually, further tightening the timeline.

[justinsmama]

Shizaru, I remember that being attributed to ArbeeJ, but I never remember Alana (Dash) saying that. She was on BOR. Can someone get the video? I have come to question a lot of Rhonda a/k/a ArbeeJ based on the Dayo Gould posts and the Scrux posts of ArbeeJ.

If I am recalling correctly, there was no verification from MB grads that Natalee shouted out "Aruba". The story went around the kids, though not from any original witness to said action. This was all over the internet. I believe the suspects learned of this and that is why it was included in their fabrication.


Argh! Oncall and awakened for an issue with my most histrionic and self-centered client!

[justinsmama]

Shizaru, I remember that being attributed to ArbeeJ, but I never remember Alana (Dash) saying that. She was on BOR. Can someone get the video? I have come to question a lot of Rhonda a/k/a ArbeeJ based on the Dayo Gould posts and the Scrux posts of ArbeeJ.

It was Arbee who said it did NOT happen if I recall correctly.  At first they thought it had and later asking each kid, no one would say they actually say her shout anything.
Rerun on NOW!
.

Again, I'm pretty sure that in his book Dave did say he found some kids who saw it happen.

My book is packed away. Shiz~ If you have the book handy, could you try to find that part and cite it here?

[justinsmama]

Something from the last thread rings a bell with me. The TIMELINE.

The "experts" are all saying that it would take 2 hours + for her to die of a lethal overdose. OK, she's relatively fine at 1 AM. Joran and/or Deepak is home at 3 on the computer. So no overdose... according to Dr. Baden and the like. Supposedly this implies a death by other means.

IF Joran has never done anything like that before, any even CLOSE-to-normal human being does not disinterestedly get on a computer at 3 AM and download porno stuff or send e-mails immediately after killing another person.

In my opinion, this is a hint that either one of 2 things is true here:

1. Joran is of a psychotic nature so far beyond hope that we can't fathom how evil he really is (which admittedly is possible)

or

2. SOMETHING ELSE took place which made Joran at least think he could reasonably wash his hands of her- close the books on her, in his mind- with only a limited degree of remorse or sense of guilt. Like as if he handed her off to someone else.

Thoughts?

I believe that he is quite capable of having killed someone, whether accidently or semi-accidently or even purposely, and having the only thought to "bother" him is that he may get caught. Oops, broke that "toy". Better hide it so no one finds out!

[justinsmama]

No monkeys awake?  

[Tylergal]

No monkeys awake?  

I am awake but just barely, only staying up because my medication is due soon and if I go to sleep, I will dislike having to get up for it.  Darned old doctors.  They have some bad hours for medicine delivery.

[spooky112483]

Sorry I'm late I had a friend over and we were watching movies. I am just now catching up (sorry I missed all the music discussion, I love music and all the bands and songs ya'll talked about) I just flipped over to the news and heard this: "american soldiers accused of stalking, rape and murder....Israel and Palastine going at it...." i cant handle all that tonight. i might take out a gun and shoot my new TV
think I'll watch "Ray" and enjoy the music...."if you dont want you dont have to get in trouble"

[Tylergal]

Sorry I'm late I had a friend over and we were watching movies. I am just now catching up (sorry I missed all the music discussion, I love music and all the bands and songs ya'll talked about) I just flipped over to the news and heard this: "american soldiers accused of stalking, rape and murder....Israel and Palastine going at it...." i cant handle all that tonight. i might take out a gun and shoot my new TV
think I'll watch "Ray" and enjoy the music...."if you dont want you dont have to get in trouble"

Don't shoot the messenger.  You just bought it.

[spooky112483]

ok now i see this photo of Natalee...only hours before....i am so sad now. and so MAD. JUST BRINGS IT ALL BACK HOME. damn them to hell! justice will be served i believe this with every fiber of my being!!!!!!