Natalee Case Discussion #766 7/22 - 8/5/08

[WhiskeyGirl]

Boat, or no boat, they were most likely on burial detail the night the family arrived.

In Deepaks car, IIRC before the carpet and other stuff was replaced at the shop. 

Wonder what they would have found if they'd checked that car when the MB group/ALE arrived early in the morning?

Maybe she left a note or something behind?

Also, if she was in the car, the body would have been stored somewhere before disposal.  I wonder why PVDS didn't allow a search of the grounds?

IMO, Natalee didn't have much time or many resources.  It's said she had the keycard, $50, and an ID/driver's license.  Looks like she had earrings, the blue bracelet, and another bracelet; but, I couldn't see a watch.

If they had checked the car earlier, it is possible she may have lost or misplaced something.  They chose not to look.  People leave things in taxis all the time, that 's what I was thinking.  Ex., they would know she didn't have her drivers license after that because it lost in the seat cushions of the Kalpoe vehicle.  Same with money and the other stuff.  I would have thought they would have checked to ensure that there weren't any clues, but they didn't.

If she had left behind her keycard, she may not have been able to get into her hotel.  Or, someone could have gotten into the hotel with the lost card.

Just random thoughts.

[igsigs]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

[Destiny]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

Hi,

I don't get the *arrow* part of your post...

Destiny

[MumInOhio]

I have always thought the Racquet Club was a key element in this case. All the sightings, meetings and the many references to the Racquet Club in the PVs., including employees being questioned. There was construction going on at the Club and Joran, Guido, Freddy, Andre and Sander all had ties to tennis. Even Satish and Deepak had a connection to a drowned tennis coach!…(we tried to work out which one in the Shango thread, but it depended which article you read…LOL)

Was all this Racquet Club reference a diversion as well? Why believe this part of the PVs and not other parts. Then how credible was “gardener witness”? Just who is Jorge Porras Sanches, mentioned in the Dr Phil Log? Is this the Holiday Inn/Racquet Club tennis pro, Sanchez, or the kid that Caps alluded to, Sanches? IIRC there was a Rodriguez connection to that kid. What of his did he request ALE return to him? And why did ALE have something of his? If the Racquet Club was a diversion, why even have a record of Jorge’s request?

More questions…More reading….

[wreck]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

Hi,

I don't get the *arrow* part of your post...

Destiny

(the arrow points to igs' avatar)

[Buckeye]

Hi Mum
About time you got back in the cage!  I think the Gottenbos were way too smart to get caught in the middle of this mess.  Just because the Sloots knew them doesn't mean they ran in the same circles. Sander admits he invited Joran on the boat that day...so that places Sander and not Koen in contact with Joran.  Dave was led to Koen in some way, of which I have forgotten by now, concerning the boat.  Who told him that?  Was it another diversion? Was the daddy Gottenbos angry that Sander left the boat there and Joran used it?  There is a reason that PV has the story of Joran being seasick and not going on the boat.  There is also a reason Sander said what he did about Joran going or not going on the boat.  There are too many details that lead me to think another diversion of some sort.  But then again I am skeptical of most anything that comes out of Aruba by now. Thoughts anyone?

Well, if not involved, it was pretty "in your face" of Sander to be at Joran's prison release, holding a sign.

[klaasend]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

Hi,

I don't get the *arrow* part of your post...

Destiny

Igsigs is saying that PVDS is Daury 

[MumInOhio]

Hi Mum
About time you got back in the cage!  I think the Gottenbos were way too smart to get caught in the middle of this mess.  Just because the Sloots knew them doesn't mean they ran in the same circles. Sander admits he invited Joran on the boat that day...so that places Sander and not Koen in contact with Joran.  Dave was led to Koen in some way, of which I have forgotten by now, concerning the boat.  Who told him that?  Was it another diversion? Was the daddy Gottenbos angry that Sander left the boat there and Joran used it?  There is a reason that PV has the story of Joran being seasick and not going on the boat.  There is also a reason Sander said what he did about Joran going or not going on the boat.  There are too many details that lead me to think another diversion of some sort.  But then again I am skeptical of most anything that comes out of Aruba by now. Thoughts anyone?

Well, if not involved, it was pretty "in your face" of Sander to be at Joran's prison release, holding a sign.

Good point, Buckeye...had forgotten that.  Thanks!

[LilPuma]

Hi Mum
About time you got back in the cage!  I think the Gottenbos were way too smart to get caught in the middle of this mess.  Just because the Sloots knew them doesn't mean they ran in the same circles. Sander admits he invited Joran on the boat that day...so that places Sander and not Koen in contact with Joran.  Dave was led to Koen in some way, of which I have forgotten by now, concerning the boat.  Who told him that?  Was it another diversion? Was the daddy Gottenbos angry that Sander left the boat there and Joran used it?  There is a reason that PV has the story of Joran being seasick and not going on the boat.  There is also a reason Sander said what he did about Joran going or not going on the boat.  There are too many details that lead me to think another diversion of some sort.  But then again I am skeptical of most anything that comes out of Aruba by now. Thoughts anyone?

Well, if not involved, it was pretty "in your face" of Sander to be at Joran's prison release, holding a sign.

I remember Dave saying that Koen was very nervous when being asked about Joran and Natalee.  That's why he wanted Dompig to talk to Koen himself.  he didn't want it messed up.  The assistant D.A. that resigned from the case and talked to Dave might have been the source of the boat and Koen.  I believe she wanted ALE to talk with him again and they refused.  Hard to remember that far back, but maybe this will job another monkey memory.

[LilPuma]

Uh, that's supposed to be JOG another monkey's memory. 

[Destiny]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

Hi,

I don't get the *arrow* part of your post...

Destiny

Igsigs is saying that PVDS is Daury 

Thanks Klaas...excuse me while I find my *dunce* hat......

Des

[WhiskeyGirl]

Nancy Grace for July 26, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 26, 2005 - 20:00:00 

...But first to WBMA reporter, Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, bring us up-to-date, friend.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA REPORTER COVERING STORY: Nancy, investigators in Aruba are draining the pond of a racket club as we speak. That just started moments ago. That information came from a gardener at the racket club who gave sworn statements to police over the weekend saying that he saw Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers in that car near the racket club at 2:30 in the morning the night Natalee Holloway disappeared.

Why they`re draining the pond, what they hope to find there? Sources tell us they may find a body there. They`re looking for a body there. That`s the latest from here.

GRACE: I want to quickly go to David Wohl. David, I`ve had cases where bodies were found in water, where we looked for evidence, for clues in water. Very, very difficult. You and I watched it in court in the Laci Peterson case, how difficult that is to find evidence in water.

Have you ever observed a body of water actually being drained or dredged?

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I haven`t. But I mean, you know what happens to bodies. We know what happened to Laci Peterson after she was in the water of San Francisco Bay for a while. There generally isn`t much left. That`s why DNA evidence is so critical here. I`m sure it will be here.

However, I don`t hold out a lot of hope. That gardener said he saw a car resembling the car that the boys were driving. And I don`t think the identification has been overly particular in this case.

So I got my fingers crossed for Natalee`s family, but I don`t know at this point. We`ll have to wait and see. It doesn`t seem to be certain.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know about you, but when he said -- when this gardener said -- correct me if I`m wrong and just jump in -- he saw not only the car parked over to the side of the road, because he nearly ran into it, but also, when he looked at the car, and the lights came around, Joran Van Der Sloot tried to hide his face, and the two Kalpoe brothers ducked down in the back of the seat.

Now, I don`t know about you, Anastasiya, but when I see people in a car all ducking down, that makes me look even more.

BOLTON: Nancy, all I can say that he gave sworn statements to police that he saw the three men that looked like the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot in that car. So far, police tell us that his story is checking out, unlike Joran Van Der Sloot who, at this point, they say has given them 22 different accounts of what happened the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared.

GRACE: So we`re going to give people a gold star, extra credit for hiding the body?

Hold on, very quickly to the editor of "Diario," joining us from Aruba, Jossy Mansur. Sir, thank you for being with us. I want to find out more about this gardener. What do you think of his story?

JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": I`m totally convinced he`s telling the truth. He has no reason to invent a story. He`s not after money. The reward posts don`t say -- do not specify any reward for just any information of the three suspects.

I mean, the information is for Natalee being found alive, $1 million, or any information leading to the location -- or, in other words, to finding this girl in whatever shape she`s in, that`s $100,000. So he`s not after money.

...Back to Anastasiya Bolton. I want to go back to this gardener, because this is the first real lead we`ve gotten, other than Natalee was last seen with a judge`s son -- all we see of this judge, as I said many times, is his back side whenever we try to ask him questions -- and these other two, the Kalpoe brothers.

This is the first real lead we`ve gotten. And I want to ask you, Anastasiya, isn`t it true that, with the new arrangement with the FBI, the FBI got to sit in during his interrogation of this gardener?

BOLTON: My understanding is that the FBI is, indeed, now able to sit in on the interrogations. And, more importantly, as I understand it, they will be able to sit in on the interrogations of Joran Van Der Sloot.

They`re not able to ask questions, but the FBI is able to take a more active role in the investigation.

GRACE: And very quickly, Jossy, before we go break -- everyone, Jossy Mansur is with us. He is the editor of "Diario" there in Aruba. You say this guy, this gardener, has no reason to lie. And also, the circumstances of the way he saw these three, allegedly, how they all ducked down in the back of the car, and tried to hide their faces, why, Jossy, would they feel they had to hide their faces and hide, that they were parked there near that racket club?

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.

GRACE: And very quickly, as we go to break, Dr. Patricia Saunders, the fact that they were trying to hide from somebody they didn`t even know, I find highly, highly probative.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it screams to consciousness of guilt, as does Mr. Joran changing his stories 22-plus times.

I want to go straight back to the editor of "Diario." He is with us from Aruba tonight, Jossy Mansur.

Now, Mr. Mansur, it`s my understanding that you actually found the gardener and had him go to authorities with his story.

MANSUR: That is correct, because we were searching for him for three- and-a-half weeks after we heard the rumor about the domino game in prison. And then we wanted to know his identity. And we searched and searched with a team that we have investigating this, Eduardo Mansur (ph) and (INAUDIBLE) and they finally found him last Friday.

And they did a lot of talking to him and reassured him that the paper will stand behind him, as well as nothing the police -- the police aren`t going to do anything to him. So he was finally convinced to go to the police.

He went at 7:00 at night. And he laid off his sworn testimony and signed it that same night.

GRACE: Now, what domino game behind bars?

MANSUR: That there was a domino game behind bars in which one of the Kalpoe brothers participated. And one other player in there yelled at him, "Listen, my gardener saw you at the racket club that early morning that Natalee disappeared."

He got very white. He threw the dominoes on the table and walked away. So that rumor started to filter out, because there were many other people present around that domino table. We found out about it. And we started a search for this gardener.

GRACE: Well, Jossy Mansur, that is a heck of a story. And apparently he is believable because, as we speak, the pond near where the gardener says he saw Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers parked around 2:30 a.m. near this racket club is being drained.

Back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Tell me about the gardener. Who did he work for? Why did he happen to be there that night at 2:30 a.m.? And how close was the car to this pond?

MANSUR: You know, he`s a gardener of a friend of ours that we know very well. And that night, it was very hot in his apartment, as it has been hot all this week in Aruba. And he left his own apartment to go this house where he works as a gardener, where he has an air-conditioned room.

And when he passed by the racket club, there was a car blocking the road. It`s a dirt road that goes around where the water is being drained now. And for him to be able to pass this car, he had to climb a little mount that was by the car.

He was very close to it, less than a yard away. And when he looked inside the car, he saw these three people that he identified was the many folders that have come out in the "Diario."

GRACE: And when he saw the three of them, what, if anything, did they do?

MANSUR: One of them -- the one that was sitting behind the driver`s seat, which was Joran, threw his hands across his face to hide from him. And the other two ducked.

GRACE: The other two were in the back seat?

MANSUR: One in the back seat, one in the front seat. Both ducked, so as not to be seen by him.

GRACE: And how close was this car to this pond that is being drained as we speak?

MANSUR: Very close. Very close. A few yards away.

GRACE: I want to go back to that domino game you told us about. We`re showing video right now, Mr. Mansur, of the pond. It is being drained right now, based largely on what this gardener has told police there in Aruba. It`s going down right now.

Back to this domino game. Who was playing dominoes with the Kalpoe brother, and how did you find out about it?

MANSUR: Because his gardener told him through his father. He`s a young fellow. His father visits him in jail. He`s there for the possession of some kind of illegal arm, nothing serious. And then they were playing there with four people, four people play domino. And some onlookers around them.

And then this happened when he confronted Kalpoe, one of the Kalpoe brothers with this fact. Then the guy got mad. He became pale, threw the dominoes, and walked away. So it`s an abnormal reaction to some kind of finger-pointing at him.

GRACE: Jossy, question about the pond. What in the gardener`s statement has led police to drain this pond?

MANSUR: The fact that he identified these three suspects in the Kalpoe`s car at that hour, between 2:30 and 3:00, at that particular place. We have to remember that Joran is a member of the racket clubs. He knows that area very well, from the palm of his hand.

And we have to remember also that Joran confessed to the police on the 13th of June that, at 2:00 that same morning, he went to the beach to the north of the Marriott Hotel with Natalee.

GRACE: So he is a member, his family is a member, of the racket club. And we`ve caught him in another lie, bottom line.

MANSUR: Of course, we caught him in a lie, because, not only him, but the Kalpoe brothers also, because they claim they dropped him off there at 2:00 and then went home.

But they were with him, because in a further statement to the police on the 13th of June, Joran said that Deepak Kalpoe walked back to the beach where he had left Natalee asleep and then he didn`t hear anything more. Then, at the end, when the police asked him what he thought happened between Deepak and Natalee, he said, "I think he raped her and then murdered her."

This is from the police records.

GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot said a Kalpoe brother raped her and murdered her?

MANSUR: Yes, he said that of Deepak. He mentioned Deepak in that statement.

GRACE: Well, you have been saying that from the get-go, along with the rest of Natalee`s family.

Back to Jossy Mansur, the editor of "Diario." We understand tonight that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, has changed his story up to 22 times. What are the different stories, Jossy, that he has given?

MANSUR: From what I understand, he gives varied answers to the same questions, but not with too much of a difference, but he keeps changing. For example, on one time, he says to the police that he left the girl on the beach and went away because she wanted to walk back to the hotel, the Holiday Inn. On another occasion, he said that he left her asleep there. Then on another occasion, he said that she got sick and he left her on the beach. So it keeps changing, but not with a variation that is very noticeable.

GRACE: Jossy, didn`t at one point he said he left her at the Holiday Inn and she was walking in and stumbled, and two -- a security guard tried to help her? Then later, he said he left her at the Marriott out on the beach?

MANSUR: Oh, the story goes on and on and on. Sure. He said that -- the first time that they spoke about this was that they left her at the Holiday Inn. She got out of the car and she stumbled. Two security guards came over. He even described the uniforms that they had. That`s why these two people were picked up by the police for questioning and then released, because they were innocent. But he keeps changing his story all the time, with some variations.

GRACE: This is what I don`t understand, Jossy Mansur. With an allegation like that by Joran Van Der Sloot, even though he`s a liar, why did they let the Deepak -- the Kalpoe brothers go?

MANSUR: Oh, that`s the $64,000 question. It`s been going on and on in my mind also. I don`t think they should have let them go. I`ve said that many times before. I think should have been held -- at least Deepak should have been held in custody and questioned and questioned all over again.

And I can confirm that Joran said this about Deepak. I can confirm it because there are police records that have it. It`s signed -- these records are signed by four officers present when he made that statement, under oath.

GRACE: And Jossy, how have you learned what is the content of the police records? I thought prosecutors were keeping them so secret.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html

a few notes about the pond and gardener

[MumInOhio]

<---------------------------------- "Daury"




Guido and Joran returned to Sloot house monday evening - after Paulus bag drop off. Or during bag drop. You decide. They haven't.

Hi,

I don't get the *arrow* part of your post...

Destiny

Igsigs is saying that PVDS is Daury 

Thanks Klaas...excuse me while I find my *dunce* hat......

Des

I didn't get it either Destiny...

[dennisintn]

Am really, really, really hoping that Mr. Peter DeVries KNOWS that such a large group of PERVERTED DUTCHMEN & DUTCHWOMEN are involved in this cover-up & the complicity of kidnapping, rape & murder.  From the Dutch wannabe's involved from the Government Offices of LieRuba, the Netherland placed Justice Officials, attorney's & parents.

Am really, really, really hoping the whole worthless rotten group of them go down here on this earth cuz I KNOW they are going down, down, down when their souls are for eternity damned.

This kind of evil, if not stopped, increases.  It really is in the best interest of any community, regardless what country to actively oppose such evil as it encourage tribal hate, which leads to horrific circumstances & is then much more difficult to contain & put to a stop.

i wouldn't exclude the possibility that there are also american expats. included in this group you're describing.
dennisintn

[San]

Hi Mum
About time you got back in the cage!  I think the Gottenbos were way too smart to get caught in the middle of this mess.  Just because the Sloots knew them doesn't mean they ran in the same circles. Sander admits he invited Joran on the boat that day...so that places Sander and not Koen in contact with Joran.  Dave was led to Koen in some way, of which I have forgotten by now, concerning the boat.  Who told him that?  Was it another diversion? Was the daddy Gottenbos angry that Sander left the boat there and Joran used it?  There is a reason that PV has the story of Joran being seasick and not going on the boat.  There is also a reason Sander said what he did about Joran going or not going on the boat.  There are too many details that lead me to think another diversion of some sort.  But then again I am skeptical of most anything that comes out of Aruba by now. Thoughts anyone?

Well, if not involved, it was pretty "in your face" of Sander to be at Joran's prison release, holding a sign.

I remember Dave saying that Koen was very nervous when being asked about Joran and Natalee.  That's why he wanted Dompig to talk to Koen himself.  he didn't want it messed up.  The assistant D.A. that resigned from the case and talked to Dave might have been the source of the boat and Koen.  I believe she wanted ALE to talk with him again and they refused.  Hard to remember that far back, but maybe this will job another monkey memory.

FROM DAVE'S BOOK:

While still in Aruba, I found out that there was a prosecutor named Amalin Flanegan who had resigned from Natalee's case about a month into it.  She had worked along with Karin Janssen, and she has to report to Theresa Crose Vernandez-Pedra, the attorney general.  I wanted to know why she had residend.  Art and I met with Ms. Flanegan at a local restaurant, and she seemed very apprehensive.  We told her how we felt about the way the investigation was going, how the evidence had been dealt with, Dennis Jacob's handling of the interviews, and that there were important things missing.  We explained how we were first told that there was blood in Deepak's car.  Then, there was no blood in the car. The seat had been cut out of  the  car, and it tested positive for Blood.  Ten, is supposedly tested positive for chocolate syrup and c leaning fluid.   But the prime minister had said that it was definitely blood, and a police officer that Art talked to said it tested positive for blood.  Art also told Ms. Flanegan about how the police disregarded the evidence of the belt that was found that was similar to the one Joran had used on his Web site nad the pieces of plastic dovered near the same area.

{Skipping part}

I also had to give some serious thought to Karin Janssen, the prosecutor.  She has been in charge of the prosecution on Natalee's case and, to date, not one of her efforts have been successful.

Art and I talked to Ms. Flanegan about all of the red flags that we were seeing and that we thought that Koen, Joran, and Deepak took Natalee out in the boat.  She agreed with that theory. She added that the reason she had left the case was because she thought Koen was lying, and when she asked the police to reinterview him, they refused.  We told her that we were going to talk to the prime minister the next day to lay it all out.

I then contacted Dompig to talk to him about my thoughts on Dennis Jacobs, but he was very supportive of him. I asked Dompig to do the interview of Koen instead of having Jacobs do it. I became concerned because he said he would have to discuss it with Jacobs first. Several weeks later, I heard that Koen's father had been interviewed, but Koen had not been questioned yet. I wondered if they were prepping the father to prep his son for questioning. That was something that seemed all to familiar.

[MumInOhio]

Am really, really, really hoping that Mr. Peter DeVries KNOWS that such a large group of PERVERTED DUTCHMEN & DUTCHWOMEN are involved in this cover-up & the complicity of kidnapping, rape & murder.  From the Dutch wannabe's involved from the Government Offices of LieRuba, the Netherland placed Justice Officials, attorney's & parents.

Am really, really, really hoping the whole worthless rotten group of them go down here on this earth cuz I KNOW they are going down, down, down when their souls are for eternity damned.

This kind of evil, if not stopped, increases.  It really is in the best interest of any community, regardless what country to actively oppose such evil as it encourage tribal hate, which leads to horrific circumstances & is then much more difficult to contain & put to a stop.

i wouldn't exclude the possibility that there are also american expats. included in this group you're describing.
dennisintn

I would have thought that the FBI would have been able to question the expats without the OK of ALE, after all they are American citizens. The ones that come to mind are the Zeollas...were you looking after Sebastian, while his mother was in the Netherlands? 

[echosofangels]

Am really, really, really hoping that Mr. Peter DeVries KNOWS that such a large group of PERVERTED DUTCHMEN & DUTCHWOMEN are involved in this cover-up & the complicity of kidnapping, rape & murder.  From the Dutch wannabe's involved from the Government Offices of LieRuba, the Netherland placed Justice Officials, attorney's & parents.

Am really, really, really hoping the whole worthless rotten group of them go down here on this earth cuz I KNOW they are going down, down, down when their souls are for eternity damned.

This kind of evil, if not stopped, increases.  It really is in the best interest of any community, regardless what country to actively oppose such evil as it encourage tribal hate, which leads to horrific circumstances & is then much more difficult to contain & put to a stop.

I Couldn't Agree More. I Am Hoping that Peter DeVries Will Keep On His Mission And Bring Justice For Natalee. Whoever Were Involved Has Gotten away With it For Far too long.

[Blonde]

Hi Mum
About time you got back in the cage!  I think the Gottenbos were way too smart to get caught in the middle of this mess.  Just because the Sloots knew them doesn't mean they ran in the same circles. Sander admits he invited Joran on the boat that day...so that places Sander and not Koen in contact with Joran.  Dave was led to Koen in some way, of which I have forgotten by now, concerning the boat.  Who told him that?  Was it another diversion? Was the daddy Gottenbos angry that Sander left the boat there and Joran used it?  There is a reason that PV has the story of Joran being seasick and not going on the boat.  There is also a reason Sander said what he did about Joran going or not going on the boat.  There are too many details that lead me to think another diversion of some sort.  But then again I am skeptical of most anything that comes out of Aruba by now. Thoughts anyone?

Well, if not involved, it was pretty "in your face" of Sander to be at Joran's prison release, holding a sign.

I remember Dave saying that Koen was very nervous when being asked about Joran and Natalee.  That's why he wanted Dompig to talk to Koen himself.  he didn't want it messed up.  The assistant D.A. that resigned from the case and talked to Dave might have been the source of the boat and Koen.  I believe she wanted ALE to talk with him again and they refused.  Hard to remember that far back, but maybe this will job another monkey memory.

I don't remember Koen ever talking to anyone, I think he still hiding in Mommy bed. (spelling)

[WhiskeyGirl]

From an old RWV thread -

Sunday, July 24, 2005
Natalee Holloway Discussion 69

Greetings, Forum Participants!

Contrary to what the Aruba PM said, some officials on Aruba have already made it perfectly clear that the USA FBI will not get "to look at everything," as they did the last time the PM pledged "cooperation" with the FBI.

American governmental agencies have to be sensitive to the wishes of other nation's authorities, especially when they are working out of country in their jurisdiction and need their cooperation.

T. J. Ward and his people do not have to be as "sensitive," and they seem to be adequately covered by the PM's very carefully worded statement, apparently giving them legal protection from the Aruba Polis.

It's going to be a long, hot Summer on Aruba.



Posted by: AbleAdvocateDAN | July 24, 2005 09:27 AM

Billy,

that could work

However the part that gets me, why would JVDS father get involved?

If she died in Deepak's car, then its Deepak's burden to bear.

I dont see PVDS sweating for her dying in Deepak's car (whether accidental or murder)

Deepak's dad or even stepfather hasnt been in the limelight only PVDS

I dont see even the Aruba Police dragging their feet on this case unless someone of porminence is involved. Enter judgetobe PVDS

Rape is less than death of unknown cause

People with nothing to hide hide nothing

Posted by: seedyrum | July 24, 2005 09:32 AM

popa was involved with her at the house....

why haven't sloots killed the monkey yet?

popa knows what jurine did and dpak can prove it, maybe with his cam pics?
not hard to hide a memory stick from a forensics team...hid in moms feminine napkins. Dpak wont go down w/o taking all involved. think logical, think simple, none of these guys are going to be working for Nasa or Arbitron.

Posted by: billy | July 24, 2005 09:37 AM

I wonder if they took any memory sticks as evidence?  Anyone remember?  It seems like young people use these all the time.

[MumInOhio]

Nancy Grace for July 26, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 26, 2005 - 20:00:00 

...But first to WBMA reporter, Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, bring us up-to-date, friend.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA REPORTER COVERING STORY: Nancy, investigators in Aruba are draining the pond of a racket club as we speak. That just started moments ago. That information came from a gardener at the racket club who gave sworn statements to police over the weekend saying that he saw Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers in that car near the racket club at 2:30 in the morning the night Natalee Holloway disappeared.

Why they`re draining the pond, what they hope to find there? Sources tell us they may find a body there. They`re looking for a body there. That`s the latest from here.

GRACE: I want to quickly go to David Wohl. David, I`ve had cases where bodies were found in water, where we looked for evidence, for clues in water. Very, very difficult. You and I watched it in court in the Laci Peterson case, how difficult that is to find evidence in water.

Have you ever observed a body of water actually being drained or dredged?

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I haven`t. But I mean, you know what happens to bodies. We know what happened to Laci Peterson after she was in the water of San Francisco Bay for a while. There generally isn`t much left. That`s why DNA evidence is so critical here. I`m sure it will be here.

However, I don`t hold out a lot of hope. That gardener said he saw a car resembling the car that the boys were driving. And I don`t think the identification has been overly particular in this case.

So I got my fingers crossed for Natalee`s family, but I don`t know at this point. We`ll have to wait and see. It doesn`t seem to be certain.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know about you, but when he said -- when this gardener said -- correct me if I`m wrong and just jump in -- he saw not only the car parked over to the side of the road, because he nearly ran into it, but also, when he looked at the car, and the lights came around, Joran Van Der Sloot tried to hide his face, and the two Kalpoe brothers ducked down in the back of the seat.

Now, I don`t know about you, Anastasiya, but when I see people in a car all ducking down, that makes me look even more.

BOLTON: Nancy, all I can say that he gave sworn statements to police that he saw the three men that looked like the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot in that car. So far, police tell us that his story is checking out, unlike Joran Van Der Sloot who, at this point, they say has given them 22 different accounts of what happened the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared.

GRACE: So we`re going to give people a gold star, extra credit for hiding the body?

Hold on, very quickly to the editor of "Diario," joining us from Aruba, Jossy Mansur. Sir, thank you for being with us. I want to find out more about this gardener. What do you think of his story?

JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, "DIARIO": I`m totally convinced he`s telling the truth. He has no reason to invent a story. He`s not after money. The reward posts don`t say -- do not specify any reward for just any information of the three suspects.

I mean, the information is for Natalee being found alive, $1 million, or any information leading to the location -- or, in other words, to finding this girl in whatever shape she`s in, that`s $100,000. So he`s not after money.

...Back to Anastasiya Bolton. I want to go back to this gardener, because this is the first real lead we`ve gotten, other than Natalee was last seen with a judge`s son -- all we see of this judge, as I said many times, is his back side whenever we try to ask him questions -- and these other two, the Kalpoe brothers.

This is the first real lead we`ve gotten. And I want to ask you, Anastasiya, isn`t it true that, with the new arrangement with the FBI, the FBI got to sit in during his interrogation of this gardener?

BOLTON: My understanding is that the FBI is, indeed, now able to sit in on the interrogations. And, more importantly, as I understand it, they will be able to sit in on the interrogations of Joran Van Der Sloot.

They`re not able to ask questions, but the FBI is able to take a more active role in the investigation.

GRACE: And very quickly, Jossy, before we go break -- everyone, Jossy Mansur is with us. He is the editor of "Diario" there in Aruba. You say this guy, this gardener, has no reason to lie. And also, the circumstances of the way he saw these three, allegedly, how they all ducked down in the back of the car, and tried to hide their faces, why, Jossy, would they feel they had to hide their faces and hide, that they were parked there near that racket club?

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.

GRACE: And very quickly, as we go to break, Dr. Patricia Saunders, the fact that they were trying to hide from somebody they didn`t even know, I find highly, highly probative.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it screams to consciousness of guilt, as does Mr. Joran changing his stories 22-plus times.

I want to go straight back to the editor of "Diario." He is with us from Aruba tonight, Jossy Mansur.

Now, Mr. Mansur, it`s my understanding that you actually found the gardener and had him go to authorities with his story.

MANSUR: That is correct, because we were searching for him for three- and-a-half weeks after we heard the rumor about the domino game in prison. And then we wanted to know his identity. And we searched and searched with a team that we have investigating this, Eduardo Mansur (ph) and (INAUDIBLE) and they finally found him last Friday.

And they did a lot of talking to him and reassured him that the paper will stand behind him, as well as nothing the police -- the police aren`t going to do anything to him. So he was finally convinced to go to the police.

He went at 7:00 at night. And he laid off his sworn testimony and signed it that same night.

GRACE: Now, what domino game behind bars?

MANSUR: That there was a domino game behind bars in which one of the Kalpoe brothers participated. And one other player in there yelled at him, "Listen, my gardener saw you at the racket club that early morning that Natalee disappeared."

He got very white. He threw the dominoes on the table and walked away. So that rumor started to filter out, because there were many other people present around that domino table. We found out about it. And we started a search for this gardener.

GRACE: Well, Jossy Mansur, that is a heck of a story. And apparently he is believable because, as we speak, the pond near where the gardener says he saw Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers parked around 2:30 a.m. near this racket club is being drained.

Back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario." Tell me about the gardener. Who did he work for? Why did he happen to be there that night at 2:30 a.m.? And how close was the car to this pond?

MANSUR: You know, he`s a gardener of a friend of ours that we know very well. And that night, it was very hot in his apartment, as it has been hot all this week in Aruba. And he left his own apartment to go this house where he works as a gardener, where he has an air-conditioned room.

And when he passed by the racket club, there was a car blocking the road. It`s a dirt road that goes around where the water is being drained now. And for him to be able to pass this car, he had to climb a little mount that was by the car.

He was very close to it, less than a yard away. And when he looked inside the car, he saw these three people that he identified was the many folders that have come out in the "Diario."

GRACE: And when he saw the three of them, what, if anything, did they do?

MANSUR: One of them -- the one that was sitting behind the driver`s seat, which was Joran, threw his hands across his face to hide from him. And the other two ducked.

GRACE: The other two were in the back seat?

MANSUR: One in the back seat, one in the front seat. Both ducked, so as not to be seen by him.

GRACE: And how close was this car to this pond that is being drained as we speak?

MANSUR: Very close. Very close. A few yards away.

GRACE: I want to go back to that domino game you told us about. We`re showing video right now, Mr. Mansur, of the pond. It is being drained right now, based largely on what this gardener has told police there in Aruba. It`s going down right now.

Back to this domino game. Who was playing dominoes with the Kalpoe brother, and how did you find out about it?

MANSUR: Because his gardener told him through his father. He`s a young fellow. His father visits him in jail. He`s there for the possession of some kind of illegal arm, nothing serious. And then they were playing there with four people, four people play domino. And some onlookers around them.

And then this happened when he confronted Kalpoe, one of the Kalpoe brothers with this fact. Then the guy got mad. He became pale, threw the dominoes, and walked away. So it`s an abnormal reaction to some kind of finger-pointing at him.

GRACE: Jossy, question about the pond. What in the gardener`s statement has led police to drain this pond?

MANSUR: The fact that he identified these three suspects in the Kalpoe`s car at that hour, between 2:30 and 3:00, at that particular place. We have to remember that Joran is a member of the racket clubs. He knows that area very well, from the palm of his hand.

And we have to remember also that Joran confessed to the police on the 13th of June that, at 2:00 that same morning, he went to the beach to the north of the Marriott Hotel with Natalee.

GRACE: So he is a member, his family is a member, of the racket club. And we`ve caught him in another lie, bottom line.

MANSUR: Of course, we caught him in a lie, because, not only him, but the Kalpoe brothers also, because they claim they dropped him off there at 2:00 and then went home.

But they were with him, because in a further statement to the police on the 13th of June, Joran said that Deepak Kalpoe walked back to the beach where he had left Natalee asleep and then he didn`t hear anything more. Then, at the end, when the police asked him what he thought happened between Deepak and Natalee, he said, "I think he raped her and then murdered her."

This is from the police records.

GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot said a Kalpoe brother raped her and murdered her?

MANSUR: Yes, he said that of Deepak. He mentioned Deepak in that statement.

GRACE: Well, you have been saying that from the get-go, along with the rest of Natalee`s family.

Back to Jossy Mansur, the editor of "Diario." We understand tonight that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, has changed his story up to 22 times. What are the different stories, Jossy, that he has given?

MANSUR: From what I understand, he gives varied answers to the same questions, but not with too much of a difference, but he keeps changing. For example, on one time, he says to the police that he left the girl on the beach and went away because she wanted to walk back to the hotel, the Holiday Inn. On another occasion, he said that he left her asleep there. Then on another occasion, he said that she got sick and he left her on the beach. So it keeps changing, but not with a variation that is very noticeable.

GRACE: Jossy, didn`t at one point he said he left her at the Holiday Inn and she was walking in and stumbled, and two -- a security guard tried to help her? Then later, he said he left her at the Marriott out on the beach?

MANSUR: Oh, the story goes on and on and on. Sure. He said that -- the first time that they spoke about this was that they left her at the Holiday Inn. She got out of the car and she stumbled. Two security guards came over. He even described the uniforms that they had. That`s why these two people were picked up by the police for questioning and then released, because they were innocent. But he keeps changing his story all the time, with some variations.

GRACE: This is what I don`t understand, Jossy Mansur. With an allegation like that by Joran Van Der Sloot, even though he`s a liar, why did they let the Deepak -- the Kalpoe brothers go?

MANSUR: Oh, that`s the $64,000 question. It`s been going on and on in my mind also. I don`t think they should have let them go. I`ve said that many times before. I think should have been held -- at least Deepak should have been held in custody and questioned and questioned all over again.

And I can confirm that Joran said this about Deepak. I can confirm it because there are police records that have it. It`s signed -- these records are signed by four officers present when he made that statement, under oath.

GRACE: And Jossy, how have you learned what is the content of the police records? I thought prosecutors were keeping them so secret.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html

a few notes about the pond and gardener

Thanks WhiskeyGirl...Need to reread all my notes on the Racquet Club and find the discussion from a little while back in Shango about the gardener and his credibility.