Larry King 8/5/08
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Caylee Anthony's mother was charged today in the case of her missing two year old daughter. Do investigators now know what happened? Answers ahead. Stay with us.
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KING: Today, state prosecutors filed formal charges against the 22-year-old mother of the missing two-year-old girl in central Florida. The mother, Casey Anthony, was charged with child neglect -- that's a third-degree felony -- and filing a false statement, which is a misdemeanor. She's held on bond, 500,000 dollars. That's the bail and those same charges since last month have been set and carried on. Her two-year-old daughter Caylee went missing in mid-June, wasn't reported until July 15th. Standing by at the Anthony home is Adam Longo, a reporter for WKMG TV, and in Orlando is Holly Gagne. Holly is a family friend of the Anthony's, has known the family for years. Casey Anthony, in fact, used to babysit her three boys and she's helping in the search for Caylee. Adam, what's the latest? Is there any chance of bail being posted?
ADAM LONGO, WKMG-TV: That is a chance at this point, Larry, because now that the state attorney's office has moved forward filed these formal charges, the defense in this case certainly has another opportunity to represent its case as far as why 22-year-old Casey Anthony, the client in this case, should have reduced bond. There had been some talk up to this point about appealing an initial bond hearing that happened several weeks ago, appealing it to the Florida State Supreme Court because it already went through an appellate court. That remains in limbo right now because these charges have been filed, Larry.
KING: What's the latest on the DNA testing, the stain in the car, the hair samples? Any results back yet?
LONGO: No, Orange County sheriff's detectives say they're still waiting for those results to come back. And interesting enough, if I can go back to the fact that the charges were filed today. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the defense and the Anthony family is actually saying that this is a victory, because they're saying the state attorney's office clearly doesn't have enough evidence to pursue any higher charges in this case. And they are convinced that this could bring Casey home sooner rather than later.
KING: Holly, you know Casey very well. She used to babysit your boys. What do you make of this?
HOLLY GAGNE, ANTHONY FAMILY FRIEND: There's a lot of confusion, Larry. And, you know, I have answered the question so many times that I just say that the Casey that I knew that babysat my children and that has been in my home and we've been friends with for six years would not harm her child or be a part of her child being harmed in any way.
KING: So you're totally shocked?
GAGNE: That is putting it lightly. That is putting it lightly, yes. When my husband and I had gotten home from our vacation and we heard the news, we went straight to Cindy and George's home, which we were their neighbors for over three years. And I just fell into Cindy's arms and I said, what is going on? And she said, you know, at that time we just don't know. There's been so many twists and turns, Larry, that, you know -- and there's so many scenarios. But in my mind and in my opinion, a scenario that she harmed her child, that she hurt her child, that she knows her child is not alive and she's torturing her parents and putting us all through this, I don't believe that.
KING: Adam, reporter, supposedly photographs have surfaced of Casey Anthony at a nightclub, reportedly taken several days after her daughter disappeared. A freelance camera man says they were taken on June 20th. Where has that gone?
LONGO: Well, Cindy Anthony herself, Larry, has said a lot of people have come out of the woodwork. Being in the media, a lot of people have come out of the woodwork. Until somebody can prove to me beyond -- make it conclusive that these photos were actually taken on the date that they said they were taken on -- that hasn't been proven to my -- I wouldn't go on with confirmation of that right now, Larry. I wouldn't be comfortable in doing that. That's still hanging out there right now.
KING: Adam, thanks for outstanding reporting. Holly will be back with us and we'll have other guests as well. This intriguing case gets more intriguing daily. Don't go away.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE's GRANDMOTHER: I just found out that they did charge her formally today, which actually is a good thing because of what they charged her with. They didn't charge her with anything but voluntary child neglect and withholding evidence. If they had anything concrete on her, I think they would have used that today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Holly Gagne remains with us, the family friend. In Pittston, Pennsylvania is Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensics expert and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Here in Los Angeles, a familiar face, Mark Geragos, the well-known defense attorney. And in Miami, Stacy Honowitz, assistant Florida state attorney. Dr. Kobilinsky, DNA tests on the stain, the hairs found, et cetera -- do you think DNA is going to crack this case?
DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY: It very well might, Larry. I think with any DNA test you need to be able to compare the question sample against an exemplar. I think during the second search of the home, the crime scene investigators recovered several items. And I think the reason why they went there was to gain an exemplar or a pseudo- exemplar of Caylee's DNA. Now they should be able to compare that with the DNA in that stain and know if it was Caylee or not.
KING: Now, Stacy, did prosecutors have to charge her?
STACY HONOWITZ, ASSISTANT FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: Yes, well, everybody was -- yes, well, everybody was flipping out, saying they didn't have enough time and she was going to walk. The bottom line was they had 21 days to charge her, and then they had 33. The max they could do was 40 days. It wasn't a matter of never charging her. It was just a matter of releasing her on her own recognizance. The state could always come back and charge her with information.
Now formal charges are pending, and I'm sure, probably, they're going to move for another bond reduction. That's going to be the next move.
KING: Mark, this is not a homicide case.
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not yet, hopefully not. But I agree with the grandmother who was on there. Short of dismissing and releasing her, getting charged, at least now she can apply for a bail reduction, potentially get out. I'm sure they can do some kind of a property bond and she could walk out the door. For a while here, it was somewhat ridiculous, I think, to have held her basically without bail and not do anything. And so at least at this point they can move forward. Her lawyers can see what they've got.
KING: Holly, do you think the public has convicted the mother?
GAGNE: Oh, Larry, everyday and twice on Sunday. Yes, they're showing these pictures over and over and over again. And Larry, I want to make a point. They're saying she's out clubbing and partying while her child was missing. However, if you were to look at the report, there's a tip from Jesse, a former boyfriend, that says he might have heard Caylee on the phone on June 26th, 24th, or 27th. So the time line is all messed up.
How can we think she's out clubbing, you know, and not caring about her daughter when someone says they heard her talking to her daughter at the end of June? You know, let's not crucify this girl, you know, until we know what's going on. And it's just not fair. It just is not fair and the media's taken it and they've run with it and they've just -- all you hear about is Casey, Casey, Casey, but the tips or things that are positive, you just hear a snip-it.
GERAGOS: While she's talking -- while she's talking, they're putting the pictures up there. We have no idea when those pictures were taken, yet they're being shown.
KING: That's like a pre-conviction, right?
(CROSS TALK)
KING: What else, Stacy?
GERAGOS: It's all of this she doesn't act right evidence. What about real evidence?
HONOWITZ: No, no, no, it's not just the pictures. That came after the fact. When you hear all of these conversations that she's had with her parents, with the police officers in the jail. Never once, as I mentioned before, has she ever mentioned trying to find this child. The public's crucifying her because they can't believe that this mother --
GAGNE: Can I comment on that, Larry?
GERAGOS: Once again, Stacy, it's she doesn't act right evidence, and that's an awful thing. It's become almost endemic for prosecutors and for people in general to say there's a certain way you've got to act. There was a woman in San Diego recently, Stacy, that you know, who was convicted on the doesn't act right evidence and the conviction was vacated. It turned out the guy wasn't even murdered.
HONOWITZ: Mark, I didn't say anything about murdering this child. I'm saying do you think, honestly, that this mother is acting rationally?
GERAGOS: Whether she's acting --
(CROSS TALK)
KING: One at a time.
GAGNE: Larry, I would like to comment on.
GERAGOS: Whether she's acting rationally or acting bizarre doesn't mean all of sudden -- That doesn't jump to murder.
KING: Holly, you want to say something? A little comment from the doctor.
GAGNE: Yes, I'd like to jump in real quick. They're not airing the phone call with her father or the interview with her father on Sunday where she was crying the entire time. They're not showing you the entire phone recording. They're showing you a snip-it to say, look at this mother. Just because you're acting irrational doesn't mean you killed your child, put her in the trunk of your car and --
HONOWITZ: I never accused her of murder at all.
GAGNE: I'm telling you what the media's saying and what they're saying down here.
KING: Doctor Kobilinsky, is this a rare case, from your standpoint?
KOBILINSKY: I wouldn't say so. Larry, it's a very circumstantial case. But as a criminalist I would say follow the evidence. You've got to see what the stain tells you. You've got to see whether the hair is postmortem. And you've got to follow the cell phone records, the phone records, and any other kind of evidence that will give us the entire picture.
KING: We've not heard the last of this, obviously. Holly and Dr. Kobilinsky, thank you. Mark Geragos and Stacy Honowitz remain. We'll be joined by Judge Alex Ferrer and Ed Smart. For more information, by the way, go to HelpFindCaylee.com. If Casey Anthony knows where her daughter is, why doesn't she just say so? Maybe some answers coming up.
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KING: Mark Geragos and Stay Honowitz remain with us. We're joined in Salt Lake City by Ed Smart. His daughter Elizabeth abducted from her home in 2002, found alive nine months later. And in Miami, Judge Alex Ferrer, the host of TV's "Judge Alex." Judge, do you ever judge anyone based on their actions? JUDGE ALEX FERRER, "JUDGE ALEX": Well, yes, everybody judges people based on their actions. In this case, this case is sadly similar to the Drew Peterson case. There isn't evidence of any wrongdoing, in the sense of the child being murdered or sold or given away or anything like that. But the reactions of the mother are completely different from what you would expect or what the public would expect from a mother who loses her two-year-old child, to go a month without reporting it? In fact, the mother didn't report it. The grandmother did.
So immediately while the system of justice will presume her innocent and wait to see where the evidence goes, the public is not that kind. The public looks at it and goes, something's wrong here. And something is wrong here. It's just a question of whether the evidence will lead to it.
KING: Ed Smart, what do you make of this case?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: I would love to hear from the mother. I really haven't heard her comments, her explanation. And I think that's really important to try and get some credibility on the subject. You know, the parent, I think when your child is missing, you would do anything. You would cooperate. You would try to, you know, give them any information possible to try and help find where your daughter is. And, you know, I'm anxious to hear what the mother has to say.
KING: With us on the phone is the grandmother, Cindy Anthony. The obvious question, Cindy, everyone asks, why won't your daughter talk?
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Casey's maintained that she's protecting Caylee, and she's also protecting the family from physical harm. We believe that 100 percent. The reason I called in, I spoke to Nancy, is I had a question for Doctor Kobilinsky. He made a comment -- because I'm kind of intrigued when asking the authorities about what constitutes decomposition, things like that. He talked about check and see if the hair samples postmortem. I just want to know how can you determine a hair that's fallen off of someone's head, is it postmortem or is it just a hair that's fallen off on a normal thing, maybe shedded on clothes, and will sit there and decompose?
KING: Good question. Dr. Kobilinsky has left, but Stacy Honowitz might be able to answer it. Is there a difference?
HONOWITZ: Well, you know, hair transfers all the time, but I guess the forensics person would really be able to tell you whether or not there is a difference. Obviously, if he made that distinction early on, there is an ability for them to analyze it. He would not have said it if it wasn't the truth. They're able to make a distinction as to whether or not it's a transfer or --
GERAGOS: I'll tell you, my experience with the hairs and with this postmortem, there's a lot of courts that believe that's junk science. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that. ANTHONY: Thank you. That's kind of what I'm wondering. We were also told that, you know, sweat cells, old blood, urine, those can also be used for DNA purposes. But my question is, how long, you know, is that something, because I know that car has had lots of hairs from all of our family. That's been a family car for at least seven or eight years.
KING: Hold it, Cindy, he's going to answer you.
GERAGOS: Cindy, actually the one thing they can do with hair with some degree of certainty is what's called mitochondrial DNA, which goes through the maternal line. They can take a sample of your hair and they could then --
ANTHONY: That just proves that its Caylee's hair, or Casey's hair or my hair or my son's hair, whoever's hair. But does that prove that that hair follicle fell off an article of clothing that was placed in the trunk, or did that fall off of a body that was placed in the trunk?
GERAGOS: They're never going to be able to prove, even if they find a hair that's in there.
ANTHONY: Then that's circumstantial evidence.
GERAGOS: That's all it is.
KING: Cindy, do you have any doubt? Are you convinced your granddaughter is alive?
ANTHONY: I'm absolutely 100 percent convinced she's alive or at least was alive when Casey gave her to the person she gave her to.
KING: Stay with us one more minute, Cindy. We'll be right back with Ed Smart, Judge Ferrer, Mark Geragos, Stacy Honowitz and Cindy Anthony. Don't go away.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CINDY ANTHONY'S LAWYER: We're not asking for immunity on anything because she doesn't know anything. She doesn't know where the child is.
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KING: We have a time limitation. Cindy, were you going to talk to your daughter today?
ANTHONY: I had a scheduled visit for her for 1:00 and I changed my mind early in the morning not to go.
KING: Any reason?
ANTHONY: Yes, because we never know when those video recordings are going to be released and, you know, the thing is, I have to figure out which is more important right now, me seeing my daughter or protecting Caylee. And right now, Casey is in a place where I know she's protected, Caylee's not. So what I have to do is make sure that I protect my granddaughter.
KING: Is Caylee about to have a birthday?
ANTHONY: Yes, on Saturday.
KING: She'll be what?
ANTHONY: Three.
KING: Three. Can she get a fair -- can we have a fair trial out of this, judge?
FERRER: Oh, absolutely. You know, we have had much more high profile cases than this, and the defendants get a completely fair trial. It's all a matter of jury selection. And if the jury selection does not render a fair and impartial jury, then you move the location of the trial. I remember when O.J. Simpson was aired -- his Bronco chase was aired all over the world. The joke used to be, knock, knock, who is there? OJ. OJ who? Welcome to the jury. They thought the trick was finding somebody who never heard of OJ. But that's not true. It can be done. More publicity makes it difficult.
KING: Ed Smart, you might have a little sympathy for the mother in that during the time your mother was missing there were accusations about you.
SMART: There were accusations. I think that we tried to do everything we could to answer those accusations, and to change the focus from -- away from us back onto Elizabeth. And I think that's what needs to happen. So much time is being spent focusing on the mother that, you know, it's just sad to see the attention go away from where it needs to be.
KING: Mark, this is a puzzlement, is it not?
GERAGOS: It's puzzling. It's strange. But at the same time, as Ed says, he spent a lot of time trying to meet the accusations and there were wild accusations about Ed at the time. But she's in a different position. She's behind bars. She's fighting for her liberty. That makes it entirely different. The calculation of her defense lawyer is entirely different than the calculation that Ed had while he was out.
KING: A prosecutor here, Stacy, is searching for the truth or anxious to convict?
HONOWITZ: Searching for the truth. That's what our job is. I know Mark's probably cracking up. I can't see the monitor, but I know he's probably laughing at that. That's the bottom line. The thing is, she holds the key to everything. Everyone is accusing her and being, you know, cross with her because she's the only one that knows. And if you listen from day one, the statements are so inconsistent that nobody can get a grasp on why she just won't say here's where my child is. That's all that matters.
KING: We're out of time but we haven't heard the last of this. I'm sure we'll be doing more on it, probably tomorrow. For more information, go to HelpFindCaylee.com. Our website is CNN.com/LarryKing. You can send Thursday's guest an email, Christian Singer, Steven Curtis Chapman and his family will be here. They suffered a tragedy in the driveway of their own home and they will talk about it and how it made them stronger. That's Thursday night.
Tomorrow, Jetblue CEO David Neeleman on his airline's latest cost cutting move, charging for pillows and blankets. He's taking your calls. That's Wednesday's LARRY KING LIVE. Time now for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?
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