Lively Case Discussion #522 9/10 - 9/12/2006

[klaasend]

The time of the statement is missing from the English version.  It is 7:20 PM according to the original.

Thanks Leslie - have no idea how I missed that.  I've added it to the English version in the forum.  Not sure if it really makes enough difference to correct the front page one.

[San]

All three of us walked to the bar and my brother Deepak bought a whisky coke for me and also a drink for himself. Joran also bought an alcoholic drink for himself.

the above quoted from Satish's statement...


 This is what I meant by Joran's semantics in my assessment based on what Jossy said about drinks costing $20 if they were drugged... Joran in an interview said the drinks cost $20... and here we have k2 buying their own drinks....

Sorry, Shiz... I don't mean to seem like I am hammering your thoughts, just my opinion is the polar opposite and everything that you say seems like it is totally opposite of what I think....

Deepak's 5/31/05 Statement:

All three of us walked to the bar and Joran bought three glasses of "whisky coke".  After Joran paid for this we walked around.

They can remember every little detail but can't remember who paid for what drink.

[mrs. red]

All three of us walked to the bar and my brother Deepak bought a whisky coke for me and also a drink for himself. Joran also bought an alcoholic drink for himself.

the above quoted from Satish's statement...


 This is what I meant by Joran's semantics in my assessment based on what Jossy said about drinks costing $20 if they were drugged... Joran in an interview said the drinks cost $20... and here we have k2 buying their own drinks....

Sorry, Shiz... I don't mean to seem like I am hammering your thoughts, just my opinion is the polar opposite and everything that you say seems like it is totally opposite of what I think....

Deepak's 5/31/05 Statement:

All three of us walked to the bar and Joran bought three glasses of "whisky coke".  After Joran paid for this we walked around.

They can remember every little detail but can't remember who paid for what drink.[/quote


I am thinking that maybe they don't let Satish out to talk is that he is going to inadvertently slip up and say something that shouldn't be discussed.... personally, I think that k2 probably did buy their own drinks... but that is of course, based on my theory of Joran's semantics...

[Sam]

I am going to have to read and compare all three of there statements together beofre I can make a judgement of any sort. As far as times and other things we all see things a little differently meaning it is a proven fact that you can have a dozen folks in a room and what they see will all be different.

Off topic, I had an email from Darleen of Alabama today. I did not notice when it was sent but go the feeling she was home again. Has she been in yet?

[Ono]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

Good question...for one thing, it was constantly being 'sold' as the safest place in the Caribbean.  Also, I think the thrill of "flying off to an island" is appealing? Little did anyone dream of just how many pirates still roam the landscape there and just how dangerous Aruba really is.

[San]

All three of us walked to the bar and my brother Deepak bought a whisky coke for me and also a drink for himself. Joran also bought an alcoholic drink for himself.

the above quoted from Satish's statement...


 This is what I meant by Joran's semantics in my assessment based on what Jossy said about drinks costing $20 if they were drugged... Joran in an interview said the drinks cost $20... and here we have k2 buying their own drinks....

Sorry, Shiz... I don't mean to seem like I am hammering your thoughts, just my opinion is the polar opposite and everything that you say seems like it is totally opposite of what I think....

Deepak's 5/31/05 Statement:

All three of us walked to the bar and Joran bought three glasses of "whisky coke".  After Joran paid for this we walked around.

They can remember every little detail but can't remember who paid for what drink.[/quote


I am thinking that maybe they don't let Satish out to talk is that he is going to inadvertently slip up and say something that shouldn't be discussed.... personally, I think that k2 probably did buy their own drinks... but that is of course, based on my theory of Joran's semantics...

I agree that they bought their own drinks.  Once again we have Joran using them.

[mrs. red]

I am going to have to read and compare all three of there statements together beofre I can make a judgement of any sort. As far as times and other things we all see things a little differently meaning it is a proven fact that you can have a dozen folks in a room and what they see will all be different.

Off topic, I had an email from Darleen of Alabama today. I did not notice when it was sent but go the feeling she was home again. Has she been in yet?

I was copied on a mass email that she replied to... I think she might be home... I haven't seen her in the cage though...

[mrs. red]

All three of us walked to the bar and my brother Deepak bought a whisky coke for me and also a drink for himself. Joran also bought an alcoholic drink for himself.

the above quoted from Satish's statement...


 This is what I meant by Joran's semantics in my assessment based on what Jossy said about drinks costing $20 if they were drugged... Joran in an interview said the drinks cost $20... and here we have k2 buying their own drinks....

Sorry, Shiz... I don't mean to seem like I am hammering your thoughts, just my opinion is the polar opposite and everything that you say seems like it is totally opposite of what I think....

Deepak's 5/31/05 Statement:

All three of us walked to the bar and Joran bought three glasses of "whisky coke".  After Joran paid for this we walked around.

They can remember every little detail but can't remember who paid for what drink.[/quote


I am thinking that maybe they don't let Satish out to talk is that he is going to inadvertently slip up and say something that shouldn't be discussed.... personally, I think that k2 probably did buy their own drinks... but that is of course, based on my theory of Joran's semantics...

I agree that they bought their own drinks.  Once again we have Joran using them.

Yes San, it's amazing that the two brothers haven't figured out yet that they are only for using... not really part of Joran's pimping team....

[igsigs]

We are talking about 3 guys here, who were not drunk, being asked to recall a 20/25 min period at C&Cs on a boring, otherwise uneventful Sunday night. Should not be hard.

[mrs. red]

I need to run out for a while... but o/t .. if any one who is interested in the Black Dahalia case hasn't seen it... the thread in the Unsolved Crimes has some cool pictures that LV took of one of the places that is thought to be involved in the murder... be sure and check that out!!

Keep the faith monkeys.... I do think Justice will prevail!!

[nonesuche]

San,

I think you may need a bigger gun now  

[nonesuche]

We are talking about 3 guys here, who were not drunk, being asked to recall a 20/25 min period at C&Cs on a boring, otherwise uneventful Sunday night. Should not be hard.

yes and even with tutoring from Paulus, they could not keep it straight or maybe we can call some of this freudian slips?

[Leslie]

Random thoughts:
The Kalpoe's buy their own booze according to this statement.  
Satish was wearing a blue cap?
Why does the 15 minutes spent at Joran's apt. (printing out homework) between the Kalpoe's arrival and the departure for C&C's always get mentioned? I wonder if the trip into the room in the main house, where the family computer is, was also a visit to the VDS's well stocked bar.
Why do they never get asked what was discussed in the car on the way to C&C's?  None of them have ever said what the topic of conversation was and it is important.

[klaasend]

I need to get some "real" work done now, will be lurking and not posting for a while.

[Leslie]

The description of the black security guard seems to be missing an important detail - his approximate age. That might narrow the field a little.  I guess Paul forgot to cover every detail in this piece of fiction.

[San]

Random thoughts:
The Kalpoe's buy their own booze according to this statement.  
Satish was wearing a blue cap?
Why does the 15 minutes spent at Joran's apt. (printing out homework) between the Kalpoe's arrival and the departure for C&C's always get mentioned? I wonder if the trip into the room in the main house, where the family computer is, was also a visit to the VDS's well stocked bar.
Why do they never get asked what was discussed in the car on the way to C&C's? None of them have ever said what the topic of conversation was and it is important.

Their answer will be we were watching a movie.

[Leslie]

Satish was sitting in the front, passenger seat yet he noticed that Joran was "fingering" Natalee.  I can imagine the Deepak, the driver watching the backseat activities in his rearview mirror but Satish would have had to turn around to see that.  I doubt if Natalee would allow that.

[Shizaru]

We are talking about 3 guys here, who were not drunk, being asked to recall a 20/25 min period at C&Cs on a boring, otherwise uneventful Sunday night. Should not be hard.

Minor discrepancies like who paid for drinks aren't important, but so far we've seen two fairly large discrepancies in the accounts of events at CnCs.  In Deepak's 6/14 statement he has Satish temporarily leaving the bar to bring him the keys after recieving his missed call, while Satish appears to agree with Joran that he was with Joran the entire time.  And now we have Satish saying in his 5/31 statement that Deepak and Joran remained together  inside CnCs while he walked around inside, vs.  Deepak and Joran consistently saying that Satish and Joran remained together inside CnCs while Deepak went out to the car.  And while it isn't explicitly stated, Satish's 5/31 statement also implies that the 4 walked out together, vs. Deepak and Joran consistently saying that Deepak waited for them in the car.

[LilPuma]

I certainly was not suggesting that Natalee was in any way to blame.  The reason it matters why she got in the car, whether she was willing or drugged, is that her condition and state of mind is relevant to what occured after that, where they took her and how she died.  I think that she got in the car willingly, because her judgement was seriously impaired by alcohol.  I don't think she knew what kind of effect a 151 shot would have on someone her size.  I think she knew she was getting into a private vehicle, not likely she'd mistake a car parked behind the building for a cab.  However I don't think she expected anything more when she got in the car, than a ride back to her hotel with maybe some making out on the way.  Maybe she thought Joran was cute and wanted a little romance on her last night on the island, maybe she was trying to make some MBer jealous, maybe it was both.  Either way I think she was a good girl who trusted the wrong person and paid for it with her life.  I don't think this was a planned crime tho.  If that is the case why were 2K Joran's third choice?  Are Andre and Florencia part of the rape gang too?  And why were 2K giving away that they weren't cab drivers by coming in and drinking with Joran?  Frankly this "20 times before quote" is being used dishonestly.  Joran was not saying they had committed rape 20 times before, just that they had picked up tourist girls 20 times before.  I think the plan that night was the same as the other 20 times,  find some drunk tourist girls, have Joran get them even drunker by buying them some 151 shots, then offer them a ride back to their hotel and see what happened.  Maybe I'm wrong but I think there is far too much uniformity of opinion on the pro-family boards that this was a premediated abduction by a well-organized pimp squad, the alternative that it was a crime of opportunity doesn't even get 5% as much attention.  Which is unfortunate because there is certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing to the latter, and which sort of crime it was makes a difference as to which scenarios are more plausable when trying to determine what ultimately happened to her.

I didn't take your original post to mean you thought Natalee was in any way responsible for her own demise.  I do think this was planned in that some of the island boys have a routine that gets them the tourist girls.  Joran getting to C&C's so late and lying about the fact that he planned to go there long before he played blackjack with Natalee's friends, the kalpoes going along with the late arrival and driving just for one drink, tells me this was a routine scenario where they expected more than a drink.  20 times before: show up late looking for some girls you've seen around, met, get them to come with you.   I think Natalee may have gone with Joran willingly as he was known to the MB kids casually.  I think she may have wanted to see the lighthouse and sharks and she got separated from her friends before she could tell them she was going with Joran and they couldn't talk her out of it.  Getting separated from her friends after drinking a shot of 151 and it was "so simple that night":  she was trusting and naive, so giving her a ride, getting her in the car, was easy.  I think she expected to see the lighthouse and sharks and go back to her hotel.  The falling asleep and waking up makes me think she was drugged.  But if she was, I doubt there was a 3 am phone call from her.  Also, Joran at first said she was drinking and maybe doing drugs:  he was covering for putting something in her drink perhaps.  I think at some point she did tell Joran to "just put me down".  But it wasn't because she didn't want to go to her hotel.  She was conscious and didn't want to go where he was taking her.  This is also where she hit her head, scraped her knee or whatever that Joran's initial story tried to cover.

[Tylergal]

Morning, Monkeys.  Lots of theories and speculation going on and so much of it seems so plausible.  I think the truth would have put all the theories to rest, but I think SunFreak might be onto something.  Is this not when they were "driving fast?"  I think that was when they had a very seriously injured or dead Natalee on their hands.

CALL OUT TO MRS. RED:  There must be Waffle House's in the Northeast.  I saw the website of John Kerry's girlfriend and the theme song was by John Kerry, and he was singing, "I get my women at the waffle house."

Sunfreak - I have decided that they ran over her... it makes, in my mind, the most sense for a lot of things.

Tyler, I promise I have never, ever seen one.... and Red and I drive all over the place.... LOL.  Kerry is just trying to "play" to the South...  

Waffle House - you can pick your state and it will tell you how many stores.

http://www.wafflehouse.com/default.asp

Hi All!

I saw that... ME, CT, MA, RI, NH, NJ and NY are not even listed.... those are all my driving distance places.... and Red hates Waffle House...  he is all about Cracker Barrell...

It was meant to be a joke.  Remember Bush saying Kerry waffled all the time?  Well, he did have several mistresses and they put together a webite called "Hedgefund mistresses" and the used that song from FloraBama "I get my women at the waffle house" as a play on words.