Lively Case Discussion #522 9/10 - 9/12/2006

[Anna]

.
My, those Kelpoe boys are certainly into the fabric fiber content to both comment that the pants were cotton.  Nothing but natural fibers for those guards, huh?  

What kid would say he had cotton pants on.  Right there we know someone is helping them write these statements.  If you ask a kid what kind of pants he had on they would say he had black pants on.  Were they that good in giving details that they could even read the label on the pants.  I wonder if they knew what temperature they should wash them on or what size they were

No, boys this age and even older NEVER read the label!!  I find the labels say things like hand wash, dry flat on little T Shirts sometimes like they are going to do that?  

Most I would venture could not name five different types of fabric either.  Not if still living at home as these were doing.  So odd they both said "cotton pants" instead of long pants or just pants or solid-colored pants, etc.

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[Anna]

.
I was once chewed out and royally for misspelling supersede so just to be sure we are all on the same page with this, it is tricky being the only sede word in the English language but it is indeed supersede:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
su‧per‧sede  /ˌsupərˈsid/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soo-per-seed] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object), -sed‧ed, -sed‧ing. 1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.  
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usually in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete: They superseded the old statute with a new one.  
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.  


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[Origin: 1485–95; < L supersedēre to sit above or upon, forbear, equiv. to super- super- + sedēre to sit1]

—Related forms
su‧per‧sed‧a‧ble, adjective
su‧per‧sed‧er, noun


—Synonyms 1. See replace. 2. void, overrule, annul, revoke, rescind.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source new! su·per·sede (spr-sd)  Pronunciation Key    
tr.v. su·per·sed·ed, su·per·sed·ing, su·per·sedes
To take the place of; replace.
To cause to be set aside, especially to displace as inferior or antiquated. See Synonyms at replace.


[Middle English superceden, to postpone, from Old French superceder, from Latin supersedre, to refrain from  : super-, super- + sedre, to sit; see sed- in Indo-European Roots.]
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super·seder n.
super·session (-sshn) n.

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source new!
Main Entry: su·per·sede
Pronunciation: "sü-p&r-'sEd
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: -sed·ed; -sed·ing
1 : to subject to postponement or suspension; especially : to suspend the operation of (a judgment or order) by means of a supersedeas
2 : to take the place of in authority : PREEMPT, OVERRIDE
3 : to take the place of and render null or ineffective

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
WordNet - Cite This Source new!
supersede

v : take the place or move into the position of; "Smith replaced Miller as CEO after Miller left"; "the computer has supplanted the slide rule"; "Mary replaced Susan as the team's captain and the highest-ranked player in the school" [syn: supplant, replace, supervene upon]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

[Anna]

Don't believe for a minute that Janssen cant charge and prosecute the "witnesses" for signing false declarations. There is no truth to the "supercede" theory or any other BS you might hear. They lied, it led to the false arrest of others, it took the heat off of them for awhile, and now its time to prosecute. Charges please.

That's what I think too...in fact, it's way past time to prosecute.

Nancy Grace had a Dutch law professor on the show last fall and he clarified three points: (1) if there are false witness statements they can and should be charged for obstruction, (2) making false declarations is a serious crime resulting in jail time (3) plea bargaining is allowed at the discretion of the prosecutor, the judge, and the defense attorney.

Again, I do understand what you are saying and what you heard.  I do not understand how any judiciary or law enforcement agency could even begin to conduct an investigation with permitting false statements to be made with complete impunity.  But in order to prosecute, KJ has to see it as such and also as worthwhile for we know in this country many times perjury is overlooked in the prosecution of a greater crime.

I suppose KJ would say she did not do so as the case is still open and she is hoping to bring greater charges eventually.  And there is that Local Policy deal which seems to mean they will bend, twist or whatever the law to suit their immediate purpose and need.  Yes, I think she COULD do it but do I think she will?  In a word, no.  This is a woman who actually wrote to our Justice Department and asked if Beth Twitty could be related to Hitler so much does she buy into her friend's son's stories.


Does anyone else ever wonder if ALE is miffed about the Dutch coming in and are leaking these statements for some nefarious purpose?  Maybe they can't be used in court if leaked or they are trying to prove they really did question the suspects and don't realize how bad these statements make them look?  So far looks to me as though these statements could have all been taken if a very few days.  How long could it take for that one of Satish for example?  Half an hour tops maybe?

[Anna]

As Easy would sing,
~All Alone Am I. . .. . ~

BBL maybe when there are more here.

 

[San]

As Easy would sing,
~All Alone Am I. . .. . ~

BBL maybe when there are more here.

 

You are not alone Anna I just am running back and forth to my computer between chores.

[nonesuche]

Don't believe for a minute that Janssen cant charge and prosecute the "witnesses" for signing false declarations. There is no truth to the "supercede" theory or any other BS you might hear. They lied, it led to the false arrest of others, it took the heat off of them for awhile, and now its time to prosecute. Charges please.

I agree.  Forget the murder rap let's go with the lesser charge.

Oddly enough, if one believes what the former poster Daniel shared, it appears that kidnapping carries a greater probability for a longer sentence under Dutch and Aruban law, than murder does? Something related to pleas as he detailed it...

I don't know if anyone remembers that thread but he explained this in detail once upon a time.

[memphis]

Shizaru your post fits with my recent thoughts......the reason nothing is mentioned is because she was unconscious by this time.

It is unbelievable to think that none of the three TALKED while jailed and interrogated. I believe, if not in the first couple of months, then at some point since....one of the three have spilled the can of worms. hence the comments about carrying guns, and the completion of the case in a few weeks . The Netherlands knows they are going in after the big boys. Oraganized crime/cartel boys.......

   I haven't ruled such a scenario out and it certainly fits with Holland bringing their guns. Also fits with Joran beating his chest, "What do you want me to do about it?"

[Carnut]

.
I was once chewed out and royally for misspelling supersede so just to be sure we are all on the same page with this, it is tricky being the only sede word in the English language but it is indeed supersede:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
su‧per‧sede  /ˌsupərˈsid/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soo-per-seed] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object), -sed‧ed, -sed‧ing. 1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.  
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usually in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete: They superseded the old statute with a new one.  
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.  

Humm, I are hooked on phonics.

[Florida]

Shizaru your post fits with my recent thoughts......the reason nothing is mentioned is because she was unconscious by this time.

It is unbelievable to think that none of the three TALKED while jailed and interrogated. I believe, if not in the first couple of months, then at some point since....one of the three have spilled the can of worms. hence the comments about carrying guns, and the completion of the case in a few weeks . The Netherlands knows they are going in after the big boys. Oraganized crime/cartel boys.......

   I haven't ruled such a scenario out and it certainly fits with Holland bringing their guns. Also fits with Joran beating his chest, "What do you want me to do about it?"

I agree 1000%....The person responsible for Natalee's disappearance COULD be a Dutch citizen and why Interpol was called in. So...WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG?

[Florida]

That Monday morning two surf shop employees also "disappeared"

And the daily charter "Octopus" Trimaran went out & came back...
2 weeks later.

[klaasend]

That Monday morning two surf shop employees also "disappeared"

And the daily charter "Octopus" Trimaran went out & came back...
2 weeks later.

I'm not sure about the surf shop employees.  The only person I've seen tell that story is SandraK and I don't put much creedance into her tales.

[LilPuma]

.
LilPuma,

I tend to agree that SOMETHING had to have happened to create the need for the professional cover-up.  Hard to believe this would have been done over an overdose for they would have just said Natalee took the drugs or drank the alcohol or whatever herself.

But as MsMarple's sig line asks, why disappear the remains if they had nothing to hide.  Why lie if they did nothing wrong?  Why cover up at all unless they had a very good reason to do so.

.

That's what I think.  Once the 3 Pimps were arrested, Paulus and Croes were arrested and the media was in a frenzy, I think they would have come clean if they could pull off a "voluntary drug/alcohol induced overdose" or an accident of any kind.  There had to have been evidence of a crime - the car, the bloodstream, bruising, her clothes, somewhere, something.  It's clear that one of the main objectives in Aruba was to make sure that Joran finished high school (arrested after finals) and was able to start college on time (Judge did an about-face and let him leave for the Netherlands).   His punishment for being stupid and hurting a tourist was 3 months in jail - (really, Joran, even the druggies are told not to hurt the tourists).  So a slap on the wrist for obstruction, lying and hurting a tourist was 3 months in jail, even if that tourist was never seen again.  If not for folks like the Monkeys, that's the ONLY price he would have paid.  As it is, he's in something of a self-made prison and he's inspired a lot of influencial people to pursue this case.  When I hear and see the determination of people like Jossy, Dana, Klaas, Larry, Joe Mammana, Red and the Mrs., I start to believe that the van der Sloots and others in Aruba will, in fact, have to face the music.

[LilPuma]

I agree 1000%....The person responsible for Natalee's disappearance COULD be a Dutch citizen and why Interpol was called in. So...WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG?

Unlike our FBI, I doubt the average cold case investigator in Holland is expected to be ready to pack up and ship out for a few months at a moment's notice.  They may have other cases that they need to close out or turn over to someone else.  I also suspect there are documents that have to be signed by Aruba and The Netherlands to ensure that the Dutch police have full police power and authority; it seems that was what Aruba had to agree to in order to get this help.   It sounded to me like the Dutch didn't want to be helpers, observers or consultants.  If they want Holland to do it, they need to really turn the power over to these investigators and that would require some kind of legal agreement.  :::shrug:::  Just my take on the situation.

[San]

I agree 1000%....The person responsible for Natalee's disappearance COULD be a Dutch citizen and why Interpol was called in. So...WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG?

Unlike our FBI, I doubt the average cold case investigator in Holland is expected to be ready to pack up and ship out for a few months at a moment's notice.  They may have other cases that they need to close out or turn over to someone else.  I also suspect there are documents that have to be signed by Aruba and The Netherlands to ensure that the Dutch police have full police power and authority; it seems that was what Aruba had to agree to in order to get this help.   It sounded to me like the Dutch didn't want to be helpers, observers or consultants.  If they want Holland to do it, they need to really turn the power over to these investigators and that would require some kind of legal agreement.  :::shrug:::  Just my take on the situation.

I hope the place where the Dutch team will be staying is always guarded.  I would bet anything that Aruba has the rooms, phones bugged.

[LilPuma]

.


Later, we learn from that same source also that much is LOCAL POLICY and not actually Dutch law at all.  So I wonder just who sets this so-called Local Policy and if this, too, falls under that rather than the letter of the law.  Lots of things seem to fall through that crack and must be the size of the Grand Canyon.  And at the time we did not realize Arlene was the cousin of Guido, fellow PIMP or whatever of Joran.

So we are also dealing with the concept of Local Policy.

It's like the claims that anything leaked to the press or public cannot be used in a court of law in Aruba.   I find this very hard to believe, but people have repeated over and over that Beth talking to the media is what side-tracked this case.  I think I read on Aruba.com that the Prosecutor typically does not talk to the media.  That's a long haul from can't be used in court if it gets out to the media.

[LilPuma]

I agree 1000%....The person responsible for Natalee's disappearance COULD be a Dutch citizen and why Interpol was called in. So...WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG?

Unlike our FBI, I doubt the average cold case investigator in Holland is expected to be ready to pack up and ship out for a few months at a moment's notice.  They may have other cases that they need to close out or turn over to someone else.  I also suspect there are documents that have to be signed by Aruba and The Netherlands to ensure that the Dutch police have full police power and authority; it seems that was what Aruba had to agree to in order to get this help.   It sounded to me like the Dutch didn't want to be helpers, observers or consultants.  If they want Holland to do it, they need to really turn the power over to these investigators and that would require some kind of legal agreement.  :::shrug:::  Just my take on the situation.

I hope the place where the Dutch team will be staying is always guarded.  I would bet anything that Aruba has the rooms, phones bugged.

I think they should ask the FBI to help them guard any statements, evidence and sweep the premises every day.  They could also help keep an eye on witnesses to make sure that after talking to the Dutch, they don't get a surprise visit from Jacobs or anyone else.

[San]

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Later, we learn from that same source also that much is LOCAL POLICY and not actually Dutch law at all.  So I wonder just who sets this so-called Local Policy and if this, too, falls under that rather than the letter of the law.  Lots of things seem to fall through that crack and must be the size of the Grand Canyon.  And at the time we did not realize Arlene was the cousin of Guido, fellow PIMP or whatever of Joran.

So we are also dealing with the concept of Local Policy.

It's like the claims that anything leaked to the press or public cannot be used in a court of law in Aruba.  I find this very hard to believe, but people have repeated over and over that Beth talking to the media is what side-tracked this case.  I think I read on Aruba.com that the Prosecutor typically does not talk to the media.  That's a long haul from can't be used in court if it gets out to the media.

Well then they should have shut Gerald Dompig, Steve Cohen, and Julia Renfro up because they are the biggest offenders.

[memphis]

I very much respect Shizaru and appreciate all the hard work but I do believe Natalee was set up.  It is not coincidental that we see the Casino vidoes with a dealer seemingly giving a high sign to what appears to be Paulus.  It is not coincidental that immediately Joran's plan goes into action.  >SNIP<

Hi Tyler! Did those video clips show a dealer making some kind of a sign? I musta missed that. Anyone? Do we have any stills?

Did KatzHome comment on it?

[terryd270]

Hi everyone!  Whats the status of rumors, new Dutch Team arriving, new suspects and anything on the news about the case?

[San]

Hi everyone!  Whats the status of rumors, new Dutch Team arriving, new suspects and anything on the news about the case?

Satish's 5/31/05 Witness Statement is posted on the front page.