Lively Case Discussion #522 9/10 - 9/12/2006

[igsigs]

You're welcome SPOCK. Seeing this Lejuez interview was shocking to me. The prosecuter is saying that Joran does not implicate the SGs on 5/31. That much is clear to me. It's starting to look like Jacobs is trying to get them all on the same page. And Janssen.

I thought Deepak said he was responsible for that part of the lie.  He embellished the story that first night with the Twittys.  He admitted and apologized to the SGs.

Yes. In the backseat tapes Deepak admits the SG story was his baby. Joran alternately has blamed it on himself and Deepak together and just Deepak.

[Carnut]

I wish we knew who it was with her at the Wyndham argueing with her over buying a piece of jewelry.  Has anyone ever confirmed that story and the video or is that just an internet rumor from RU?

It could be a figment of Julia's imagination...did I say that?  Yes, I did.  

That's what I always thought it was, along with the cabbie blue eyed dutch marine story.

[Lala'sMom]

Joran's June 9th suspect statement:


We drove back to the Holiday Inn Hotel to drop Natalee off there. When we arrived there Deepak parked on the left lane and not on the right lane that lies in front of the Lobby. Natalee got out the back door on the right side and she fell to the floor. I got out of the same car door and helped her get up. After I did that Natalee said to me not to touch her and she walked into the direction/towards the lobby. I saw that she touched a pillar. We did not kiss and I got back into the car. Then we drove home. Later, when we just found out she had gone missing Deepak and Satish told me that they had seen a guard dressed in black when we were driving off. According to them the guard also had a walkie talkie in his hands. Deepak and Satish said that the guard walked towards/in the direction of Natalee. (with Natalee is meant the missing woman named "Natalee Ann HOLLOWAY"; comment Jacobs).

The plan was to implicate the K2 all along.  Deepak was telling the truth when he said they all had sex with her and Joran knew he needed another alibi and so he was planning to let the K2s take the fall...then Beth happened.  They never expected a mother with such determination.

[Carnut]

"MISSING" jvds Witness Statement

sb writes: "...The Kalpoes, unknowingly, were set up to mention the 2 guys and become canaries (and we know what the bad guys do those who sing)..."

IMO, the most direct and simple reason for jvds "witness" statement to be missing, especially at time of K2 attorney press story which is dated June 9, 2005 would be that it doesn't exist (or that it has been destroyed).

IMO, wholly possible that jvds never gave an "Official" witness statement, though he may have said many things to polis and others.

And now if you were Paulus, and looking for some insurance, or even looking for a way to set up k2 and get the goon child off free and clear, do you think you would consider witholding a "witness statement" made by son, and allowing INTENTIONALLY FALSE witness statements to be signed by k2 -- thereby exposing k2 to perjury/false witness, obstruction and contempt charges?

I sure do.

With those false witness statements signed, submitted and on file, who do you think looks "more guilty."  That would be k2.

Yes, now looking at the statements, that appears to be what was happening.

[Kat_Gram]

Don't believe for a minute that Janssen cant charge and prosecute the "witnesses" for signing false declarations. There is no truth to the "supercede" theory or any other BS you might hear. They lied, it led to the false arrest of others, it took the heat off of them for awhile, and now its time to prosecute. Charges please.

That's what I think too...in fact, it's way past time to prosecute.

Nancy Grace had a Dutch law professor on the show last fall and he clarified three points: (1) if there are false witness statements they can and should be charged for obstruction, (2) making false declarations is a serious crime resulting in jail time (3) plea bargaining is allowed at the discretion of the prosecutor, the judge, and the defense attorney.

My understanding of this was that they could charge the K Bros with making false statements as witnesses, but then they could not up the charges. This leaves the question: What do they do with Joran ?
He didn't point the finger at the guards, it was the Kalpoes.
There were no charges against Steve Croes either .

[Lala'sMom]

Can someone please direct me to a discussion about Larry Garrison and his supposed new lead?
I am completely lost here with all that has been discussed of late.
TIA.

Hi there, it's good to see you.  I am sorry, I don't know where that discussion is...I missed it as well.

[Lala'sMom]

Jacobs seems to be everywhere?  Is he sleeping with Julia Renfro?

No comment

    What a 'visual' !

Sounds more like a nightmare to me.  

[klaasend]

Joran's June 9th suspect statement:


We drove back to the Holiday Inn Hotel to drop Natalee off there. When we arrived there Deepak parked on the left lane and not on the right lane that lies in front of the Lobby. Natalee got out the back door on the right side and she fell to the floor. I got out of the same car door and helped her get up. After I did that Natalee said to me not to touch her and she walked into the direction/towards the lobby. I saw that she touched a pillar. We did not kiss and I got back into the car. Then we drove home. Later, when we just found out she had gone missing Deepak and Satish told me that they had seen a guard dressed in black when we were driving off. According to them the guard also had a walkie talkie in his hands. Deepak and Satish said that the guard walked towards/in the direction of Natalee. (with Natalee is meant the missing woman named "Natalee Ann HOLLOWAY"; comment Jacobs).

Thanks Klaas, odd that we can't review the 5/31 Joran statement to see if he discussed a walk on the beach by the fisherman huts. Jacobs had a reason (tip) for asking that question of D and S.

You are assuming we don't have or aren't going to be able to review Joran's 5/31 statement.  I don't know that's the case.  I say let's wait and see if it becomes available...I really don't know if it is but I'm not ready to say it's not.

[SunFreak2]

"MISSING" jvds Witness Statement

sb writes: "...The Kalpoes, unknowingly, were set up to mention the 2 guys and become canaries (and we know what the bad guys do those who sing)..."

IMO, the most direct and simple reason for jvds "witness" statement to be missing, especially at time of K2 attorney press story which is dated June 9, 2005 would be that it doesn't exist (or that it has been destroyed).

IMO, wholly possible that jvds never gave an "Official" witness statement, though he may have said many things to polis and others.

And now if you were Paulus, and looking for some insurance, or even looking for a way to set up k2 and get the goon child off free and clear, do you think you would consider witholding a "witness statement" made by son, and allowing INTENTIONALLY FALSE witness statements to be signed by k2 -- thereby exposing k2 to perjury/false witness, obstruction and contempt charges?

I sure do.

With those false witness statements signed, submitted and on file, who do you think looks "more guilty."  That would be k2.

I agree Hammer.  Didn't Joran say that he called Deepak in the middle of giving his own statement to ask Deepak what Natalee had been wearing?  I've never heard of any police allowing someone to call someone else to ask them for details while giving a statement.  Didn't he also warn Deepak that he & Satish would have to give a statements later that day? Somethink is hinky with this whole deal of witness statements given on 5/31.  Why would the polis pickup Deepak & Satish for their statements, yet Paulus was allowed to go get Joran and deliver him to the poliz?  And why at the Bubali precint & not at Noord?  How many precints are there in Aruba? When Dave arrived in Aruba he says he had to go to 3 different precints to find someone who knew about NAtalee's case.  I wonder if he stopped at the Bubali precint?

[klaasend]

Can someone please direct me to a discussion about Larry Garrison and his supposed new lead?
I am completely lost here with all that has been discussed of late.
TIA.

There really wasn't much said.  It was pretty vague:

GMA....9/7

Larry Garrison was on talking about the case in Aruba...also plugging his book.....he said, right now that someone has come forward in this case, and is telling everything they know. He of course wouldn't elaborate.

[Lala'sMom]

I think I am calling it a night.  See you monkeys later.  Has anyone seen CP405 lately?  Hugs to Nemo.  

[sb]

I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

[klaasend]

I think I am calling it a night.  See you monkeys later.  Has anyone seen CP405 lately?  Hugs to Nemo.  

Nite Lala's - no I haven't seen CP405.

[Ono]

CHRIS LEJUEZ, ATTORNEY FOR ABRAHAM JONES: Nancy, i have seen only the statements of two of the three men. The evidence that i got, the documentation, the files that i recieved from the prosecuter's office contained only two of the statements.

My colleague has asked the prosecuter why only the two, not the one of the Dutch boy? She was told by the prosecuter, at least by the prosecuter's office, that the statement would not be relevant to the case of her suspect, her client.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/09/ng.01.html

  Was Joran's 5/31 statement "not relevant" to the case against the SGs because...he did not include them in his statement? Did Joran abandon the HI lie on 5/31?

Oh..I remember this now...This statement most likely nailed Joran on something...

[klaasend]

I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

1.  Because Joran leaving an obviously drunk girl to fend for herself would seem better if Joran left her in the hands of a security guard?

2.  Because PVDS knew that some of the SG's sold drugs to the tourists and would be easy targets?

3.  Paulus didn't expect Beth, Jug and Dave to show up and ruin his plans otherwise the SG and HI story would have worked?

[SunFreak2]

I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

Had the 4 girls reported the attempted break-in while they were taking their nap? They said they saw what was a the backside of someone dressed in black rounding the corner just as they got to the sliding door.   Paulus must have thrown the SG guard in b/c of this report, and then Jacobs, the narcotics officer, got Boeti to say it was Johns & Jones.

[San]

I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

1.  Because Joran leaving an obviously drunk girl to fend for herself would seem better if Joran left her in the hands of a security guard?

2.  Because PVDS knew that some of the SG's sold drugs to the tourists and would be easy targets?

3.  Paulus didn't expect Beth, Jug and Dave to show up and ruin his plans otherwise the SG and HI story would have worked?

I agree Klaas.

[Ono]

I wish we knew who it was with her at the Wyndham argueing with her over buying a piece of jewelry.  Has anyone ever confirmed that story and the video or is that just an internet rumor from RU?

I vote that it's an internet rumor.

[LilPuma]

I think I am calling it a night.  See you monkeys later.  Has anyone seen CP405 lately?  Hugs to Nemo.  

I saw CP405 in the Monkey Lounge last week.

[LilPuma]

Had the 4 girls reported the attempted break-in while they were taking their nap? They said they saw what was a the backside of someone dressed in black rounding the corner just as they got to the sliding door.   Paulus must have thrown the SG guard in b/c of this report, and then Jacobs, the narcotics officer, got Boeti to say it was Johns & Jones.

I'm now wondering if Jacobs came up with the security guard story and the Fisherman's Huts story.  Joran's missing statement tells me he said things that Paulus & Friends didn't want on the record, some of which Jug and friends heard.  Before issuing another statement, they had to get their ducks in a row so that Joran's statement wouldn't incriminate him.  Unfortunately, Charles Croes, Jug and his friends, the DEA agent, and Anita van der Sloot all repeated some of the things he said before vdStraaten, Jacobs and Paulus could cover all their bases.