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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #522 9/10 - 9/12/2006  (Read 136395 times)
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sb
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« Reply #340 on: September 11, 2006, 12:08:42 AM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "sb"
I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

1.  Because Joran leaving an obviously drunk girl to fend for herself would seem better if Joran left her in the hands of a security guard?

2.  Because PVDS knew that some of the SG's sold drugs to the tourists and would be easy targets?

3.  Paulus didn't expect Beth, Jug and Dave to show up and ruin his plans otherwise the SG and HI story would have worked?


ALL 3 Could Be true... Taking all 3 in order, my questions would be:

1. Doesn't this work better if Joran HIMSELF says it? "I left her with 2 SGs". This would play into the angle of Anita's "There were adults there" statement. Joran seems to have failed to stick up for himself in this manner.

2. This may be the most plausible reason of the 3, for Paulus to put 2 layers of separation into the mix instead of just 1. Instead of trying to pin it on K2, he lets them pin it on other unknown persons.

3. The story was so transparently full of holes, it likely would have fallen apart even if the HT family had been delayed a month getting down there. If I recall, Beth was far more concerned with searches than in proving or disproving the veracity of anyone's story. She only went proactive in calling for the SG's release when it was obvious to HER that they were a rabbit trail and a dead end that was erroneously being run down, that confused the investigation and put roadblocks in the way of finding Natalee. Her immediate influence in disproving the story was not so great at first. In other words, she didn't oppose the story and interfere, until more or less after the fact.
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San
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« Reply #341 on: September 11, 2006, 12:10:42 AM »

Quote from: "LilPuma"
Quote from: "SunFreak2"

Had the 4 girls reported the attempted break-in while they were taking their nap? They said they saw what was a the backside of someone dressed in black rounding the corner just as they got to the sliding door.   Paulus must have thrown the SG guard in b/c of this report, and then Jacobs, the narcotics officer, got Boeti to say it was Johns & Jones.


I'm now wondering if Jacobs came up with the security guard story and the Fisherman's Huts story.  Joran's missing statement tells me he said things that Paulus & Friends didn't want on the record, some of which Jug and friends heard.  Before issuing another statement, they had to get their ducks in a row so that Joran's statement wouldn't incriminate him.  Unfortunately, Charles Croes, Jug and his friends, the DEA agent, and Anita van der Sloot all repeated some of the things he said before vdStraaten, Jacobs and Paulus could cover all their bases.

I agree.  Joran said something wrong or mentioned someone she should not have.
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #342 on: September 11, 2006, 12:12:34 AM »

Quote from: "LilPuma"


I'm now wondering if Jacobs came up with the security guard story and the Fisherman's Huts story.  Joran's missing statement tells me he said things that Paulus & Friends didn't want on the record, some of which Jug and friends heard.  Before issuing another statement, they had to get their ducks in a row so that Joran's statement wouldn't incriminate him.  Unfortunately, Charles Croes, Jug and his friends, the DEA agent, and Anita van der Sloot all repeated some of the things he said before vdStraaten, Jacobs and Paulus could cover all their bases.


:::::waving back at LilPuma:::::

Good point.  Jossy seems to believe it vdSTraaten being an honest cop.  Oduber & vdSTraaten were at odds.  It doesn't make sense that the top cop & the PM would be at odds if they were both corrupt.  So if we consider vd Straaten to be good cop, and Jacobs the dirty cop, how would this change the scenario of the cover-up?
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the big hammer
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« Reply #343 on: September 11, 2006, 12:13:55 AM »

Deepak: Off the Reservation on 6/11

Deepak comes out w/ the beach drop-off story on 6/11 in his "suspect statement" -- breaking the party line on the HI story and "officially" goes off the reservation...

WHY?

After all, he has lied as a "witness" in a capital crime case, he has perjured himself and is open to numerous additional charges.  His attorney learns that there is no "relevant" jvds "witness" statement on 6/9. (And this TRUE, whether a jvds witness statement exists or not.) And within 48 hours, deepak is singing a completely different tune.

I believe deepak and his attorneys correctly surmised and deduced they were being set up.  And this would be wholly keeping w/ Paulus method of having a "plan B" if the arrest of the guards failed to produce desired outcome.  The longer k2 sticks with HI lie, the worse the perjury gets, the worse the potential obstruction charges get.

To protect himself and his brother, he goes off the reservation.  He tells the "truth" on 6/11 -- directly implicating jvds as last person w/ Natalee.  He does so because he is threatened and exposed.

The stated "IRRELEVANCE" of the jvd witness statement by k2 attorney is clear signal, during 6/9-6/11 w/ security guard/HI story collapsing, the sloots will try to pin k2, and their own FALSE WITNESS statements are Exhibit 1.
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #344 on: September 11, 2006, 12:22:37 AM »

Quote from: "the big hammer"
Deepak: Off the Reservation on 6/11

Deepak comes out w/ the beach drop-off story on 6/11 in his "suspect statement" -- breaking the party line on the HI story and "officially" goes off the reservation...

WHY?

After all, he has lied as a "witness" in a capital crime case, he has perjured himself and is open to numerous additional charges.  His attorney learns that there is no "relevant" jvds "witness" statement on 6/9. (And this TRUE, whether a jvds witness statement exists or not.) And within 48 hours, deepak is singing a completely different tune.

I believe deepak and his attorneys correctly surmised and deduced they were being set up.  And this would be wholly keeping w/ Paulus method of having a "plan B" if the arrest of the guards failed to produce desired outcome.  The longer k2 sticks with HI lie, the worse the perjury gets, the worse the potential obstruction charges get.

To protect himself and his brother, he goes off the reservation.  He tells the "truth" on 6/11 -- directly implicating jvds as last person w/ Natalee.  He does so because he is threatened and exposed.

The stated "IRRELEVANCE" of the jvd witness statement by k2 attorney is clear signal, during 6/9-6/11 w/ security guard/HI story collapsing, the sloots will try to pin k2, and their own FALSE WITNESS statements are Exhibit 1.


So if there was a 6/10 confession, we can assume it wasn't Deepak's if he changes his story on 6/11 to distance himself from the HI lies.  Or maybe it is to back Joran's 2nd set of lies about the FH's to keep the heat away from the real site of the crime.
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #345 on: September 11, 2006, 12:23:56 AM »

Quote from: "sb"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "sb"
I agree w/ Hammer that PVDS may have set them up THAT way.

What I am trying to derive is the methodology whereby the K2 decided to tell a story of 2 SG's that didn't exist. We KNOW the HI scenario is fiction with-or without- the 2 guys anyway. What prompted them to fit the 2 guys in there? Either:

1. Paulus told them to say it, or

2. They came up with the idea as an embellishment of what Paulus told them to say.

All right, in the K2's shoes for a second (ugh)... Paulus is the Master of All Things, the Benefactor, the Hope of exoneration, the Big Wheel who will get them OFF THE HOOK. He gives them a story. What would you do with the story if in their spot?

In their spot, they hew to the Party Line, CHAPTER, VERSE, VERBATIM, down to the last jot and tittle. NO editorializing, NO embellishments. Stick to the script, boys, and all will be well.

Besides, I don't think either of them is smart enough to think up an additional detail like that.

I believe for some esoteric reason, Paulus included the SG sequence as part of the cover story. Now why?

1.  Because Joran leaving an obviously drunk girl to fend for herself would seem better if Joran left her in the hands of a security guard?

2.  Because PVDS knew that some of the SG's sold drugs to the tourists and would be easy targets?

3.  Paulus didn't expect Beth, Jug and Dave to show up and ruin his plans otherwise the SG and HI story would have worked?


ALL 3 Could Be true... Taking all 3 in order, my questions would be:

1. Doesn't this work better if Joran HIMSELF says it? "I left her with 2 SGs". This would play into the angle of Anita's "There were adults there" statement. Joran seems to have failed to stick up for himself in this manner.

2. This may be the most plausible reason of the 3, for Paulus to put 2 layers of separation into the mix instead of just 1. Instead of trying to pin it on K2, he lets them pin it on other unknown persons.

3. The story was so transparently full of holes, it likely would have fallen apart even if the HT family had been delayed a month getting down there. If I recall, Beth was far more concerned with searches than in proving or disproving the veracity of anyone's story. She only went proactive in calling for the SG's release when it was obvious to HER that they were a rabbit trail and a dead end that was erroneously being run down, that confused the investigation and put roadblocks in the way of finding Natalee. Her immediate influence in disproving the story was not so great at first. In other words, she didn't oppose the story and interfere, until more or less after the fact.


I've always thought that the insertion of the 2 Security Guards was due to a key missing word: 2 BLACK Security guards. My impression is that racism is alive and well on Aruba, and particularly in the VDS mind. I remember the insertion of Natalee's ALLEDGED slave comments re: K2. There seems to be a mindset that inserting race can help them solve something or distract blame away from them.


HI GUYS!
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sb
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« Reply #346 on: September 11, 2006, 12:26:04 AM »

2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?
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« Reply #347 on: September 11, 2006, 12:28:54 AM »

Quote from: "the big hammer"
Deepak: Off the Reservation on 6/11

Deepak comes out w/ the beach drop-off story on 6/11 in his "suspect statement" -- breaking the party line on the HI story and "officially" goes off the reservation...

WHY?

After all, he has lied as a "witness" in a capital crime case, he has perjured himself and is open to numerous additional charges.  His attorney learns that there is no "relevant" jvds "witness" statement on 6/9. (And this TRUE, whether a jvds witness statement exists or not.) And within 48 hours, deepak is singing a completely different tune.

I believe deepak and his attorneys correctly surmised and deduced they were being set up.  And this would be wholly keeping w/ Paulus method of having a "plan B" if the arrest of the guards failed to produce desired outcome.  The longer k2 sticks with HI lie, the worse the perjury gets, the worse the potential obstruction charges get.

To protect himself and his brother, he goes off the reservation.  He tells the "truth" on 6/11 -- directly implicating jvds as last person w/ Natalee.  He does so because he is threatened and exposed.

The stated "IRRELEVANCE" of the jvd witness statement by k2 attorney is clear signal, during 6/9-6/11 w/ security guard/HI story collapsing, the sloots will try to pin k2, and their own FALSE WITNESS statements are Exhibit 1.


Let's not forget about the CONFESSION/RETRACTION!
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klaasend
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« Reply #348 on: September 11, 2006, 12:30:58 AM »

Quote from: "sb"
2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?


#2 - I was actually posting in the TripAdvisor forum when that post about the 3:45 am boat ride was posted.  They deleted it soon after it was posted claiming it was a troll/hoax.  I'm not so sure now.
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sb
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« Reply #349 on: September 11, 2006, 12:31:11 AM »

But on that note... the dreaded "eyelid" rule is coming into play... I am starting to fall asleep at the keyboard.

I'm going to sign off but I think we should go through this and re-examine ALL of the movements on Aruba that night. There simply HAS to be an answer beneath all the garbage (I'm not primarily referring to the landfill).

See y'all tomorrow!
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #350 on: September 11, 2006, 12:31:55 AM »

Quote from: "sb"
2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?


sb, I remember your points, but have forgotten the source of the hysterical female report. Do you recall where that came from? TIA
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #351 on: September 11, 2006, 12:32:09 AM »

Quote from: "sb"
2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?


This was supposedly a maid at the Marriott Resort who heard a female screaming and looked out a window and saw this.  Yet did she report it to anyone at the time?  I think it's another rumor just like the HI dumpster story.
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Anna
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« Reply #352 on: September 11, 2006, 12:34:57 AM »

.
Is it not a single security guard the Kelpoes claim to have seen with Natalee instead of two?  I read both their statements as speaking of a solitary, sole guard, not two guards.

Remember Anita first said there were "adults" where Joran left Natalee, too. so there again, who does she mean?  People at the HI?  

But is it not a single guard they report seeing approaching Natalee?  True, he does have the walkie talkie and appears to be using it.  That would require a second person I would assume but as far as their false story, doesn't it just speak of the one guard?  

And yet two were arrested.   Shocked
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Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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« Reply #353 on: September 11, 2006, 12:37:27 AM »

Quote from: "SunFreak2"
Quote from: "LilPuma"


I'm now wondering if Jacobs came up with the security guard story and the Fisherman's Huts story.  Joran's missing statement tells me he said things that Paulus & Friends didn't want on the record, some of which Jug and friends heard.  Before issuing another statement, they had to get their ducks in a row so that Joran's statement wouldn't incriminate him.  Unfortunately, Charles Croes, Jug and his friends, the DEA agent, and Anita van der Sloot all repeated some of the things he said before vdStraaten, Jacobs and Paulus could cover all their bases.


:::::waving back at LilPuma:::::

Good point.  Jossy seems to believe it vdSTraaten being an honest cop.  Oduber & vdSTraaten were at odds.  It doesn't make sense that the top cop & the PM would be at odds if they were both corrupt.  So if we consider vd Straaten to be good cop, and Jacobs the dirty cop, how would this change the scenario of the cover-up?


Uh boy, I need to process these new possibilities.  I always thought that vdStraaten, who didn't want to do this to his friend's son, was the guy who assigned Jacobs to the case and orchestrated the coverup.  I even thought that Oduber and Rudy Croes were complicit, perhaps to keep their own "indiscretions" secret.  Oduber supposedly had vdStraaten's office searched before he left - vdStraaten was very angry.  vdStraaten was seen with Jacobs after leaving Aruba and he wasn't supposed to be there.  Oduber twice asked for FBI involvement.  Sure doesn't look to me like vdStraaten is the honest cop.  Now we have reason to suspect that Jacobs came up with the idea of the FH dropoff.  He's always been our suspect for hand-picking the two guards to arrest.   Confused  I have to process this.   Sad
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« Reply #354 on: September 11, 2006, 12:42:52 AM »

Quote from: "Sam"
San , I am not sure what a crackhead looks like. LOL

I thought he was kinda cute. Had a friendly looking smile. JMHO


lol, looks like a crackhead to me too, old beyond his years, but the sun will do that to a person too
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« Reply #355 on: September 11, 2006, 12:44:21 AM »

Now I have to back read, just getting here again, good to see you Louise
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« Reply #356 on: September 11, 2006, 12:45:59 AM »

Quote from: "sb"
2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?


SB,
Wasn't the source of Item #1 Steve Croes?  Was he the only one who claimed to have heard this hysterical woman?  I seem to remember Sleuth stating that he could not have heard it from his vantage onboard the Tattoo that night, is that correct?  If no one heard it except SCroes, I just can't believe anything he says or any of the PIMP crew really.

The second Item I have not heard before I don't think.


.
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #357 on: September 11, 2006, 12:53:53 AM »

Quote from: "Anna"
.
Is it not a single security guard the Kelpoes claim to have seen with Natalee instead of two?  I read both their statements as speaking of a solitary, sole guard, not two guards.

Remember Anita first said there were "adults" where Joran left Natalee, too. so there again, who does she mean?  People at the HI?  

But is it not a single guard they report seeing approaching Natalee?  True, he does have the walkie talkie and appears to be using it.  That would require a second person I would assume but as far as their false story, doesn't it just speak of the one guard?  

And yet two were arrested.   Shocked


Yep Anna, 2 arrested, one mentioned in the witness statements.   Did Joran actually say that about getting her safely back to adults first or was  that Anita, and then Joran followed suit in his Current Affair interview?
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SunFreak2
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« Reply #358 on: September 11, 2006, 12:57:42 AM »

Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "sb"
2 other deep, mysterious tidbits from that night still haunt me to this day, and they have IMO never been adequately discussed. Anyone remember the following 2 facts/rumors/opinions?

1. The report of 2 men dragging a hysterical female into a car in the N part of the hotel strip area.

2. The forum post where someone addressed Joran and asked about his "3:45 AM boat ride".

We are digging deep into the fateful night... why don't we bring these up as well?


SB,
Wasn't the source of Item #1 Steve Croes?  Was he the only one who claimed to have heard this hysterical woman?  I seem to remember Sleuth stating that he could not have heard it from his vantage onboard the Tattoo that night, is that correct?  If no one heard it except SCroes, I just can't believe anything he says or any of the PIMP crew really.

The second Item I have not heard before I don't think.


.


IIRC, the source of #1 was a maid at the Marriott who heard a female scream, looked out a window and saw it happening.  My question is if this happened did she report it to the poice or the hotel security or anyone at the time it occurred?
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Anna
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« Reply #359 on: September 11, 2006, 12:58:32 AM »

.
OK, just wanting to keep that straight that the Kelpoes claimed only ONE guard and yet TWO arrested.  That seems to mean something to me in some obscure way.

I heard Anita say that about Joran leaving Natalee with adults but then she would likely count the Kelpoes as adults compared to her deilcious baby sporter.  Not sure if Joran claimed that himself or not.  

I need to process this as Li'lPuma said.  If they did not like Joran's statement of 5/31, why didn't they just make up one as vdStraaten did later?  Something about that I need to think about as well.

.
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Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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