Lively Case Discussion #522 9/10 - 9/12/2006

[Kat_Gram]

Buckeye, yes, she was played. And then they continued on.. those boys played the police and the prosecutors and worst of all, the family.

[Smish]

In addition to Natalee's initiating contact with Joran and flirting with him at the bar, after ignoring him at the casino, the comments by Deepak in his 5/31 statement, that she told Deepak to drive around, and called out some boy's name from the car, are support for my theory that she left with Joran in part based on some sort of typical teenage agenda: Trying to make another boy jealous, or impress her friends, or something like that.  It certainly looks as tho she wanted to be seen leaving with Joran.  

Of course I understand why her parents prefer to believe that she was drugged and that despite being drunk and naive, she would not have gotten in a car with strangers.  However in truth it does a disservice to the family, for those of us who are more emotionally removed and objective, to ignore the strong circumstantial evidence pointing away from that scenario, and towards an impulsive crime of opportunity, date rape gone wrong.   Even if Joran is guilty, which I have no doubt he is, getting locked into the idea that she was drugged, as part of planned abduction and rape by all three suspects, takes you down the wrong path when it comes to such things as determining the most likely crime scene and cause of death.  It has I think even prevented the family from most effectively countering the attacks on Natalee... I suspect that the reason her family has never mentioned the incident of Natalee objecting to the nudity in the DVD that Satish put on, even tho it shows how Joran has been intentionally omitting details that don't fit the nutty/slutty image of Natalee he has been trying to portray, is that it also doesn't fit the idea that Natalee was a helpless prisoner or that she thought she was in a cab.  And furthermore if she was drugged, that leaves open the theoretical possibility that she would have consented to sex with Joran alone.  I've seen many comments by people who believe that Joran is guilty or are on the fence, to the effect of  "maybe she did want Joran, but not 2K as well..."  OTOH, if the truth is that 2K were just the drivers who dropped Joran and Natalee off at the beach together,  and then Natalee died fighting against Joran alone (which is what I have concluded is the scenario most consistent with the evidence), that proves that Beth was basically right about who her daughter was, even with inhibitions lowered by intoxication, Natalee would not have consented to sex with a stranger.  So ironically the dogmatic belief on the part of most family supporters that this must have been a planned drugging/abduction/gang rape may actually be depriving Natalee of the moral credit she deserves.

I disagree.Why couldn't Natalee had been drugged and also thought Joran was giving her a lift in a taxi?We have no statements from Natalee,only from the suspects.We do have a couple of Bama kids stating that:
1)Joran presented himself as a 19 yo vacationing college sporter from Holland.
2)Joran hanging around the HI and casino on the days that the Bama kids were there....they could have believed that he was indeed a tourist at the hotel...same as them.
Why isn't it believable that:
1)Joran could have offered Natalee a taxi ride back to the hotel,he could have said his friends on the island(that he met years ago while vacationing on Aruba)were running a taxi service.
Joran could have seen Natalee feeling sick from the drinking and the possible date rape drugging and offered her a ride back to THIER hotel?
I do not believe that this was Joran's or the Kalpoe's first time playing the PIMP game.I believe they have played this game quite a few times before,or at least Joran has.I also do not believe that J2K are the only PIMPS on Aruba playing this game.In fact I don't think 2K are part of the original PIMPS.The Kalpoe's were not Joran's first choice of who was to be the driver that night.Jaime was,before Joran even met the Bama girls that night.This PIMP game has been played numerous times on Aruba and played by a few different groups of PIMPS.They even have island girls(Pimpettes)that help them in thier conquests.Something bad happened while they played the PIMP game that night with Natalee.I don't place much credibility in those puter and phone transcripts.ALE helped dirty all of that info,so I really don't know what evidences they really had.

[San]

In addition to Natalee's initiating contact with Joran and flirting with him at the bar, after ignoring him at the casino, the comments by Deepak in his 5/31 statement, that she told Deepak to drive around, and called out some boy's name from the car, are support for my theory that she left with Joran in part based on some sort of typical teenage agenda: Trying to make another boy jealous, or impress her friends, or something like that.  It certainly looks as tho she wanted to be seen leaving with Joran.  

Of course I understand why her parents prefer to believe that she was drugged and that despite being drunk and naive, she would not have gotten in a car with strangers.  However in truth it does a disservice to the family, for those of us who are more emotionally removed and objective, to ignore the strong circumstantial evidence pointing away from that scenario, and towards an impulsive crime of opportunity, date rape gone wrong.   Even if Joran is guilty, which I have no doubt he is, getting locked into the idea that she was drugged, as part of planned abduction and rape by all three suspects, takes you down the wrong path when it comes to such things as determining the most likely crime scene and cause of death.  It has I think even prevented the family from most effectively countering the attacks on Natalee... I suspect that the reason her family has never mentioned the incident of Natalee objecting to the nudity in the DVD that Satish put on, even tho it shows how Joran has been intentionally omitting details that don't fit the nutty/slutty image of Natalee he has been trying to portray, is that it also doesn't fit the idea that Natalee was a helpless prisoner or that she thought she was in a cab.  And furthermore if she was drugged, that leaves open the theoretical possibility that she would have consented to sex with Joran alone.  I've seen many comments by people who believe that Joran is guilty or are on the fence, to the effect of  "maybe she did want Joran, but not 2K as well..."  OTOH, if the truth is that 2K were just the drivers who dropped Joran and Natalee off at the beach together,  and then Natalee died fighting against Joran alone (which is what I have concluded is the scenario most consistent with the evidence), that proves that Beth was basically right about who her daughter was, even with inhibitions lowered by intoxication, Natalee would not have consented to sex with a stranger.  So ironically the dogmatic belief on the part of most family supporters that this must have been a planned drugging/abduction/gang rape may actually be depriving Natalee of the moral credit she deserves.

Shizaru,

I know you believe in your theory and I think that's great because you have devoted a lot of time to it.  But I disagree with it.  I do feel that Natalee was drugged, kidnapped and gang raped by all three.  Joran was in a rush to get to CnC's that night and only a half hour before closing.  My question is why even bother to go.  Does Joran think he is that irresistible that he would score with Natalee in that time frame?  He went there with a plan (20 times before) and he followed through with it.  She could have voluntarily gotten in the car with them thinking she was getting into a cab and going back to her hotel.  Once they made that first wrong turn it becomes a kidnapping thus all the excuses he makes about her wanting to drive around and seeing the lighthouse.  Van der Straaten also knows it was a kidnapping and this is why he made the family take the signs down and say "Missing".  He is trying to eliminate those charges against Joran in case they either found Natalee or found out what happened to her.  In my eyes Natalee isn't deprived of anything because of what I believe in.  JMO.

[Kat_Gram]

Shizaru has spent more time than I have on these statements.
Heart and soul has been put into this by Shizaru. Probably like the rest of us, some sleep lost. Tears shed. Anger outbursts.
We are all really on the same path... to find Justice for Natalee.
I am going to make the effort ( again ) to not be critical.

[Smish]

Shizaru

I believe there was and probably still is an island passtime of hooking up with young American tourists the night before they are to leave.  I think the locals know that most have one last celebration and that it is a good time to take advantage. I do not believe Natalee had her eyes on Joran to play any silly game.  Deepak says after asking him to dance, she joined a group of her friends.  I can envision Natalee asking everyone to come on and dance (to celebrate their last night). I don't think she set out for him or she would have been hanging on him at the casino. She was not playing some teenage girl game.  She was played .  Nothing this bad might have happened before...but the game was well established.  I am not sure if you are aware that you are coming across as implying that Natalee asked for trouble.  I don't believe this and I am somewhat offended that what happened is being related to a female character flaw or lack of character.  Trusting young (naive) women don't see danger in friendliness...there are dangerous and ugly people in all age groups.  Please don't imply Natalee had anything to do with what happened.  She never saw the plan or knew she was the game. JMO

I don't think Shiz was implying that somehow this could have been Natalee's fault.I don't see it as that anyway.I also don't think that even IF Natalee went willingly with Joran that that made her a bad girl.Natalee was not a bad girl,just a normal young lady having fun on Aruba.I agree with you Buckeye,this was a PIMP game played many times on Aruba.

[Kat_Gram]

Smish....bare bumski is missing ...

[Smish]

In addition to Natalee's initiating contact with Joran and flirting with him at the bar, after ignoring him at the casino, the comments by Deepak in his 5/31 statement, that she told Deepak to drive around, and called out some boy's name from the car, are support for my theory that she left with Joran in part based on some sort of typical teenage agenda: Trying to make another boy jealous, or impress her friends, or something like that.  It certainly looks as tho she wanted to be seen leaving with Joran.  

Of course I understand why her parents prefer to believe that she was drugged and that despite being drunk and naive, she would not have gotten in a car with strangers.  However in truth it does a disservice to the family, for those of us who are more emotionally removed and objective, to ignore the strong circumstantial evidence pointing away from that scenario, and towards an impulsive crime of opportunity, date rape gone wrong.   Even if Joran is guilty, which I have no doubt he is, getting locked into the idea that she was drugged, as part of planned abduction and rape by all three suspects, takes you down the wrong path when it comes to such things as determining the most likely crime scene and cause of death.  It has I think even prevented the family from most effectively countering the attacks on Natalee... I suspect that the reason her family has never mentioned the incident of Natalee objecting to the nudity in the DVD that Satish put on, even tho it shows how Joran has been intentionally omitting details that don't fit the nutty/slutty image of Natalee he has been trying to portray, is that it also doesn't fit the idea that Natalee was a helpless prisoner or that she thought she was in a cab.  And furthermore if she was drugged, that leaves open the theoretical possibility that she would have consented to sex with Joran alone.  I've seen many comments by people who believe that Joran is guilty or are on the fence, to the effect of  "maybe she did want Joran, but not 2K as well..."  OTOH, if the truth is that 2K were just the drivers who dropped Joran and Natalee off at the beach together,  and then Natalee died fighting against Joran alone (which is what I have concluded is the scenario most consistent with the evidence), that proves that Beth was basically right about who her daughter was, even with inhibitions lowered by intoxication, Natalee would not have consented to sex with a stranger.  So ironically the dogmatic belief on the part of most family supporters that this must have been a planned drugging/abduction/gang rape may actually be depriving Natalee of the moral credit she deserves.

Shizaru,

I know you believe in your theory and I think that's great because you have devoted a lot of time to it.  But I disagree with it.  I do feel that Natalee was drugged, kidnapped and gang raped by all three.  Joran was in a rush to get to CnC's that night and only a half hour before closing.  My question is why even bother to go.  Does Joran think he is that irresistible that he would score with Natalee in that time frame?  He went there with a plan (20 times before) and he followed through with it.  She could have voluntarily gotten in the car with them thinking she was getting into a cab and going back to her hotel.  Once they made that first wrong turn it becomes a kidnapping thus all the excuses he makes about her wanting to drive around and seeing the lighthouse. Van der Straaten also knows it was a kidnapping and this is why he made the family take the signs down and say "Missing".  He is trying to eliminate those charges against Joran in case they either found Natalee or found out what happened to her. In my eyes Natalee isn't deprived of anything because of what I believe in.  JMO.

Thanks San,I had forgotten all about those missing and kidnapped posters and why they changed so quickly.I agree with you.

[Kat_Gram]

I was looking at Dave's book and on page 150, bottom, he talks about Paulus:
" a on-time-judge-in-training who flunked out and went back to Holland with his tail between his legs. As of right now, this man can no longer do anyone any favors, at least where the court system is concerned.  A person who sits on the bench has alot of power to wield. But now he has been dethroned. "
.
Well, I hope so. And I also hope that the Dutch Team has no friends or family on Aruba.

[Tylergal]

San, I agree with you and I think they do not want to be involved with "drugs" or "kidnapping" although they know that is what they did.  I do believe this was a PIMPS game, and I think Satish and Joran are more involved perhaps than Deepak, but he knows what happened, although he might not be aware of where her body was taken in the end.  She died because three lower-than-scum-sucking predators took her in a car where she met her demise.  It's just as simple as 1-2-3 + Paulus makes 4.

[San]

San, I agree with you and I think they do not want to be involved with "drugs" or "kidnapping" although they know that is what they did.  I do believe this was a PIMPS game, and I think Satish and Joran are more involved perhaps than Deepak, but he knows what happened, although he might not be aware of where her body was taken in the end.  She died because three lower-than-scum-sucking predators took her in a car where she met her demise.  It's just as simple as 1-2-3 + Paulus makes 4.

Exactly.

[Smish]

I was looking at Dave's book and on page 150, bottom, he talks about Paulus:
" a on-time-judge-in-training who flunked out and went back to Holland with his tail between his legs. As of right now, this man can no longer do anyone any favors, at least where the court system is concerned.  A person who sits on the bench has alot of power to wield. But now he has been dethroned. "
.
Well, I hope so. And I also hope that the Dutch Team has no friends or family on Aruba.

True but Paulus knows people in the court system,has friends in high places,long ago made friends.I trust no one on Aruba except for Jossy.

[BTgirl]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

[San]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

Because Aruba is saying it is

[BTgirl]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

Because Aruba is saying it is

Well, we already know big people lie.  

Seriously, if you look at a green island like Bermuda, and then compare it to Aruba, the difference is very striking. Aruba looks like it got bombed and never recovered.

[Tylergal]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

BT, I thought the same thing when I went there.  It was for sale cheap and those wanting to turn it into predator/smuggling island, named "it paradise," because it is a paradise for thugs.

[San]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

Because Aruba is saying it is

Well, we already know big people lie.  

Seriously, if you look at a green island like Bermuda, and then compare it to Aruba, the difference is very striking. Aruba looks like it got bombed and never recovered.

I like your discription BT.

[San]

I put Google Earth on my computer the other day, and last night I was looking at Aruba. From the air, that whole place looks like a Gosh-forsaken heck hole.

Except for that one strip of hotels, it all looks like a vast wasteland. Could someone tell me again why the place is supposed to be an island paradise?

BT, I thought the same thing when I went there.  It was for sale cheap and those wanting to turn it into predator/smuggling island, named "it paradise," because it is a paradise for thugs.

Gee I like this description also

[Kat_Gram]

That whole tourist beach area is man made.
There wasn't any industry on Aruba pre tourists... there was the oil refinery ... and aloe.
There isn't the lush foliage that you associate with tropical.
Hardly rains.

[Smish]

Smish....bare bumski is missing ...

Waaaa,my post to you went poof.
Good morning again you all,Kat,I was trying to get my neat looking flutterby pic inserted...kept resizing it down past 100x100 and inserting and reinserting it but it wouldn't work.It was gonna replace my dancing bumski pic.
I like changing my pics often,you should see my desk top.

[Shizaru]

I certainly was not suggesting that Natalee was in any way to blame.  The reason it matters why she got in the car, whether she was willing or drugged, is that her condition and state of mind is relevant to what occured after that, where they took her and how she died.  I think that she got in the car willingly, because her judgement was seriously impaired by alcohol.  I don't think she knew what kind of effect a 151 shot would have on someone her size.  I think she knew she was getting into a private vehicle, not likely she'd mistake a car parked behind the building for a cab.  However I don't think she expected anything more when she got in the car, than a ride back to her hotel with maybe some making out on the way.  Maybe she thought Joran was cute and wanted a little romance on her last night on the island, maybe she was trying to make some MBer jealous, maybe it was both.  Either way I think she was a good girl who trusted the wrong person and paid for it with her life.  I don't think this was a planned crime tho.  If that is the case why were 2K Joran's third choice?  Are Andre and Florencia part of the rape gang too?  And why were 2K giving away that they weren't cab drivers by coming in and drinking with Joran?  Frankly this "20 times before quote" is being used dishonestly.  Joran was not saying they had committed rape 20 times before, just that they had picked up tourist girls 20 times before.  I think the plan that night was the same as the other 20 times,  find some drunk tourist girls, have Joran get them even drunker by buying them some 151 shots, then offer them a ride back to their hotel and see what happened.  Maybe I'm wrong but I think there is far too much uniformity of opinion on the pro-family boards that this was a premediated abduction by a well-organized pimp squad, the alternative that it was a crime of opportunity doesn't even get 5% as much attention.  Which is unfortunate because there is certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing to the latter, and which sort of crime it was makes a difference as to which scenarios are more plausable when trying to determine what ultimately happened to her.