Natalee Case Discussion #769 9/15/08 through 9/20/08

[Lala'sMom]

Johann
Is Joran still in detox? 

there is one organisation in that area the "Altrecht" 
the detox is for heavy drug users like Joran
but they can stay there for 6 weeks
so i think he is in a kind of long stay unit in Den Dolder

i will have a look there next week 

So if Joran is there still does that mean he can not be arrested while he's in therapy?

[Jonathan45]

@wreck

The 'shinbone' that was found near a pond, south of the VDSresidence, was aging-tested at the university. It was human bone but over 50years old. There were also [dog] bitemarks on it.

What would happen if Joran did a polygraph test ?

I can be a liar as well, because every child is confronted with this natural phenomenon from day one. We all had to copy the behaviour from those who surrounded us during many years. I call it social genetics behind the frontdoor. 
A web of natural double binds who easily can turn into pathological ones.

The VDSfamily shows how those double binds make this case unsolved.

[johan555]

Johann
Is Joran still in detox? 

there is one organisation in that area the "Altrecht" 
the detox is for heavy drug users like Joran
but they can stay there for 6 weeks
so i think he is in a kind of long stay unit in Den Dolder

i will have a look there next week 

So if Joran is there still does that mean he can not be arrested while he's in therapy?

They can arrest him anytime also when he have a insane statement
I think that he is in a kind of  protection program he is not safe in Holland  (drachten)

[johan555]

Dr. Sharon Leal

Research Fellow
Psychology
sharon.leal@port.ac.uk


Liars are exposed by blinking
 By Lucy Cockcroft

The best way to spot a liar is to look them in the eyes, according to scientists who say the number of times a person blinks will show if they are speaking the truth.

Liars blink less frequently than normal during the lie, and then speed up to around eight times faster than usual afterwards.

The findings, reported in the Journal of Non-verbal Behaviour, means that blink rates could soon be used by professionals, such as the police and security forces, to tell when someone is being duplicitous.

Dr Sharon Leal, co-author of the study at Portsmouth University, said: "It is striking what different patterns in eye blinks emerged for liars and truth tellers.

"Such striking differences in behaviour between liars and truth tellers are rarely seen in deception research."

Researchers studied a group of volunteers as they went about their normal business for ten minutes. A second group were asked to steal an exam paper from an office, then to deny having taken it.

The groups were then asked each to recall exactly what they had been doing.

During the interview their blink rates, which had all been the same at the start, were monitored with electrodes placed above and below and at the sides of the eyes to monitor all movements.

Results show that when the questions were being asked and the answers given, the blink rate in the liars went down. In contrast the truthful group's rate went up, though this could have been down to test anxiety.

Afterwards, the blink rate of the liars increased rapidly, while that of the truth tellers remained the same.

Researchers believe the increased effort involved in telling fibs could be the reason why liars do not blink during the act of lying.

Dr Leal said: "Liars must need to make up their stories and must monitor their fabrication so that they are plausible and adhere to everything the ******* knows or might find out.

"In addition, liars must remember their earlier statements, so that they appear consistent when re-telling their story, and know what they told to whom. Liars will be more inclined than truth tellers to monitor and control their demeanour so they will appear honest.

"The reasons why there is a flurry of blinks after the lie is not really clear. It may be that this flurry is a kind of safety valve, like a release of energy after the tension of lying."

housework for this evening :watch all the joran tapes 

[BUCKSHOT]

Joarn does not lie, he is a sporter.

 

[LoRain]

Hmmm...I paid attention to Joran's "blinks" and it seemed to me that he blinked more when I thought he was lying and less when telling the truth...guess I need to double check myself on that one...

[Lala'sMom]

Joarn does not lie, he is a sporter.

 

Sociopaths and psychopaths can often pass polygraphs.

[johan555]

Caps do you think that there is a loge on Aruba ?  or a Grootloge ?

vrijmetselarij loge ?

de groote ooste splits in 2 in aruba , the sol naciente and the king salomon.

both are in aruba. but the key question is who control them and who give them orders...

the grandmaster is in Holland?  Google for drs. J.D. van Rossum?

Joran's fav book : The Da Vinci Code > that is a coincidence

[iris44]

Long time lurker here.  VERY impressive work figuring out this so complicated case. It's amazing what you have accomplished working together. It finally all makes sense.

I may have missed this, but has anyone been able to identify the spot in the pond on the bigger photo of the Monsarat Pond and the Matty Apts area that is the exact spot where they dug up the little section (from the dried up pond photo)?  Or does anyone know where the person who took the dried up pond photo was standing in relation to the big area shot?  What I'm getting at is: Does the spot that they dug up when the pond was drained seem like a spot Joran could have easily waded to from the direction he came from?

[Buckeye]

In Amigoe - through the google translator:
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/printer_46823.php



The juvenile is hopelessly outdated which young criminals can be punished only for serious offences.

Young almost criminal not to punish '
September 17, 2008, 14:00 (GMT -04:00)


ORANJESTAD - "If a 14 - or 15-year old kills someone, then it can not at this time of imprisonment be imposed". That is one of the shocking conclusions that representatives of the Public Prosecutor (OM), Probation, Youth and Vice Squad and Voogdijraad yesterday revealed in an interview that she is a 'hartenkreet' call to juvenile to be able to adequately address.

Sharina by Henriquez

The representatives of these four bodies sit in a monthly discussion - the Jeugdoverleg-young people who are stuck in which they discuss. They average five cases per month and about a year on average from 70 to 100 youngsters between the ages of 12 to 17 years with the judiciary have come into contact. These are not the mild cases, but often the heavier boys who have committed a serious crime or more offences in their name.
And the youngsters who commit crimes are heavier each year while Justice on the other side just because it may impose sanctions juvenile in more than eighty years has not been adjusted. The 'hartenkreet' Jeugdoverleg which now comes out is not so much motivated by a drastic increase in the number of young criminals, but the increasingly severe violations and crimes committed by youngsters without them there to be punished for money. "The sanctions we can impose are hopeless. We feel it every month in the Jeugdoverleg. The juvenile should really be adapted as soon as possible, "says Public Prosecutor, Frans van Deutekom.

Bendes
In the top six young people who commit offences, burglary top followed by increasingly ill-treatment involving a weapon is used. In this context, Jeugdoverleg also by the previous messages from the police confirmed that young people are increasingly being caught with firearms. At number three is overt violence, followed by destruction, healing and committing sexual offences. Van Deutekom, "If you go to the motives of young people watching who commit sexual offences, it appears that it is for boys who do not know their own limits. They have not explained how they got their girl must deal with. "
Zorgenpunt is also the problems that cause young people in groups. From the phenomenon of gangs of juvenile gangs as groups in the media, is not yet the case in Aruba, says Van Deutekom. "They are not organized with certain codes example where there is a ganglid be punished if he does not transgressed. They are groups of varying composition are around one or two main characters who are real criminals. "Also Seraida Pemberton-Leonard, coordinator of alternative penalties for the Probation does not speak of gangs because" the parents of young people in such a group are not recognize the word itself. They tell us that their daughter or son absolutely not a gang, but if we ask whether their children in a group which is in the district rondhangt, which does not recognize the parents'.
Pemberton-Leonard thinks that with the current developments towards the direction of juvenile gangs.


For all these negative developments times, it is therefore very important that initially the legal instruments to be modernized, stressed Van Deutekom. "There must be concrete as soon as possible imprisonment for 14 - and 15-year olds. That allows the law now. "Legally employee Yolanda Pronk, in charge of youth at the OM says it even sharper:" These young people may therefore at this time a citizen neersteken and forth freely. This seems to me not what the community wants. "

Public Prosecutor Van Deutekom explains that the juvenile criminal law applies to young people between 12 and 18 years. Young people below 12 years under the law can not be held criminally. The big problem is that in the current criminal law for other ages are almost no penalties. "There may be a fine of 90 florin be imposed. In addition, the court-tbr a criminal (available assertion of the government) to impose, but that never happens because there is no facility in Aruba where the juvenile can be imprisoned. Finally, an imprisonment be imposed, but this is linked to tbr. So the young must first undergo a tbr-sentence and then become the prison. But because a tbr-penalty imposed can not be, so you stand with empty hands. "
The law provides an exception, where the PPS in the absence of better, use it and that is that 16-year-olds and older adult criminal law should be applied. Van Deutekom: "This exception is intended for gifted people, but we are now forced to default because the juvenile no opportunity." OM has also still an alternative to a TOM-session involving not only the court officer Prosecutor young criminals a job or leerstraf may impose. This should the suspect or accept. Moreover, these alternative prosecution only if the young person has committed an offence in which a maximum penalty of three months unconditional imprisonment can be given. A TOM-session may also adversely hit by the suspect. "An alternative punishment is often heavier than the youthful decision to refer the matter to court them. This can only impose a penalty of 90 florin. It is also not that the PPS a heavier punishment than the court could impose. "

With this' hartenkreet 'hopes for and also the other participants of the Jeugdoverleg that the community as soon as possible the youth with the juvenile uitwas structural challenges. "The law must be changed, but only with repressive means we will get nowhere. There must come a jeugdopvang where young criminals can be treated with behavioural problems and if they come out further guidance. There are initiatives within the government, in schools to probleemjongeren to tackle, but these are all separate islands. Actually, Aruba has an integral youth needed, "concludes Van Deutekom.

I'm not exactly sure what all this says.  Maybe it is a little jumbled with translation.

Interesting that for three years nothing came up on googling Deutekom, but now that the name is out, we actually have an article.

He may call gangs, "groups" but kbm/ Kawish (at times Joran) talked about the "gangs" two years ago. For being a psych guy, he certainly should understand the concept of the BIG boys using the younger guys to do the planned dirty work for the simple fact that there will be no punishment for them.  The ignoring of sexual insults and attacks will not make them better but sending the message that it is ok to hurt girls is just asking for more and more trouble. Classes, in school, will not fix the problem.  People need to be accountable for their actions. Those in positions of leadership and power need to set an example...and I don't mean the "I can get out of any trouble if I have influential friend"...example.

[natalfan]

Caps do you think that there is a loge on Aruba ?  or a Grootloge ?

vrijmetselarij loge ?

de groote ooste splits in 2 in aruba , the sol naciente and the king salomon.

both are in aruba. but the key question is who control them and who give them orders...

the grandmaster is in Holland?  Google for drs. J.D. van Rossum?

Joran's fav book : The Da Vinci Code > that is a coincidence

I don't believe in coincidences, but who am I?

[johan555]

they have red tee-shirts there at montanja 19
oh and who was this girl  ?    an old film star? LOL

[johan555]

they have red tee-shirts there at montanja 19
oh and who was this girl  ?    an old film star? LOL

[johan555]

they have red tee-shirts there at montanja 19
oh and who was this girl  ?    an old film star? LOL

[bastibro]

Slowly the net will close around the perverse unscrupulous islanders.
Have a great evening Monkeys           

[johan555]

[Buckeye]

The girl with the hat looks like Karen Martinez, but I'm not positive.  The girl in the lower pic is Flor.

[Buckeye]

@wreck

The 'shinbone' that was found near a pond, south of the VDSresidence, was aging-tested at the university. It was human bone but over 50years old. There were also [dog] bitemarks on it.

What would happen if Joran did a polygraph test ?

I can be a liar as well, because every child is confronted with this natural phenomenon from day one. We all had to copy the behaviour from those who surrounded us during many years. I call it social genetics behind the frontdoor.
A web of natural double binds who easily can turn into pathological ones.

The VDSfamily shows how those double binds make this case unsolved.

Darn it!!  I was hoping for a real forensic match.   

[Buckeye]

Long time lurker here.  VERY impressive work figuring out this so complicated case. It's amazing what you have accomplished working together. It finally all makes sense.

I may have missed this, but has anyone been able to identify the spot in the pond on the bigger photo of the Monsarat Pond and the Matty Apts area that is the exact spot where they dug up the little section (from the dried up pond photo)?  Or does anyone know where the person who took the dried up pond photo was standing in relation to the big area shot?  What I'm getting at is: Does the spot that they dug up when the pond was drained seem like a spot Joran could have easily waded to from the direction he came from?

Interesting questions, iris.  There are some here very familiar with the picture angle.  Not sure they know exactly where "evidence" was found/dug up.  I don't know enough to answer your question.  Welcome.

[johan555]

The girl with the hat looks like Karen Martinez, but I'm not positive.  The girl in the lower pic is Flor.

yes that is Karen Martinez Buckeye