Natalee Case Discussion #769 9/15/08 through 9/20/08

[Rob]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

[klaasend]

Angelala - thank you so much!

My pleasure. I also carted Buckshot's list of witnesses over to BFN... hope that's okay... I did link it to the post here.

No problem at all, I'm all for sharing info!

[Ree]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

Don't forget the missing cell phone that was reported stolen (to Freddie)

[IBE]

Ah ha,

Found Klaas. Am posting a question for you in Musings re: CERT. My first class is tonight!

[johan555]

From Jossy...

Key witness reveals what happened 4:05 am at Monserat

Paulus and Joran were “looking” for something on the side of the road

ORANJESTAD(AAN):  Last week, DIARIO published the latest information regarding the key witness, who came forward to disclose everything he witnessed on May 2005 from his house, which is situated in the neighborhood of the Nacional Soccer field, close to the Monserat pond.

However the witness was afraid to come forward to the Police and local Prosecutor, because of the prejudice in the Prosecutor Office, which is alive and growing each day.
He did give a statement to the Prosecutor, but to certain extent. The more important and key details he revealed to the American investigators.

The American investigators listened very carefully to his story and immediately felt that he was telling the truth. They then asked him if he was willing to go to the States and pass a polygraph test.

The witness was tested by John S. Swartz, a renowned professional in this field, and the test revealed that he was telling the truth! Finally shedding some light on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005.

Last week, after months of following the new developments, DIARIO published the first part of the witness’ statement. This statement that was already in Prosecutor Mos’s hands.

DIARIO opted to wait until after the FBI sent the results of the polygraph test and their investigation to Holland, before publishing the second part of the statement, considering that Holland would send a copy to Aruba.

THE WITNESS’ STATEMENT

On May 30th, 2005 he was sleeping in his room; when he was awaken by the alarming sound of barking dogs. He opened his eyes and checked his alarm clock; it was 4:05 am.

He got up and listening to where the barking was coming from, he went in the living room and peeked thru the window to find out why the dogs sounded so alarmed.

Under the streetlight, he saw someone walking towards his house, from the Nacional Soccer field, close to the Monserat pond and hotel area.

While the person was walking under another streetlight, he could clearly see the person. It was undoubtedly a man, notably tall, slim, Caucasian, with short and dark hair, relatively young and he looked like a Dutch citizen.

He could see his profile and one side of his face.

He was wearing a red t-shirt and light colored pants. The witness noticed by the way the person was limping, that he was missing his right sneaker or shoe. He also noted that the person was breathing extremely hard, as if he just had been running very hard for a long time. His chest was heaving.

WET AND MUDDY CLOTHES

The witness stated (and probably also in the lie-detector test), that the person clothes were wet and that he also saw a muddy stripe on his chest, more or less about 5 centimeters above his chest.

The muddy stripe on his chest clearly showed that he was completely wet.

At first glance, the witness though that the person maybe had been in a fight with someone, and he was running not to get beat up. But his face showed no bruises or blood.

But because he didn’t look back not even to check if someone might be following him and just kept walking fast with his head down, the witness thought he did something other that fighting.

The person walked past his house, and kept walking, until he was out of sight, and he never raised his head or looked back, and just kept walking in the hotel’s direction.

This happened in about one minute.

NEW INFORMATION

After the witness saw the person walk past his house and was out of sight, he sat down in his living room for about 5 minutes.

He then noticed a car driving slowly, coming from the hotel area. Behind the wheel was a middle-aged, Caucasian man. Next to him, the witness saw the young man that was walking past his house a few minutes earlier.

The witness said they were driving a red jeep, and that they were driving extremely slow. He stated to the American investigators that was clearly that the driver and the passenger were looking for something on the floor. He said that the car just keep going in the direction of the Monserat pond.

HE RECOGNIZED THE DRIVER

According to the witness, in the following weeks he recognized the young man as Joran van der Sloot, when his pictures started to circulate in the press, and that the disappearance of Natalee Holloway became an international media frenzy.

He also recognized the driver as Paulus van der Sloot, Joran’s father. The witness stated that, that was everything he saw and that nothing more happened.

The question in everyone mind is: What were Paulus and Joran looking for on that road? The fact that the witness passed the polygraph test and is telling the truth is enough to focus the attention on that.

Of course the public wants to know why this witness didn’t come forward in 2005.

The witness was afraid of the consequences of his statement, since he was well aware that Paulus van der Sloot has powerful connections in the Prosecutors Office. Paulus is a lawyer, and he was studying to become a judge.

Knowing that the justice system in Aruba is totally in Dutch hands, he felt compelled to keep his mouth shut. This went on for more than 2 years, and in the end of 2007, he felt the need to reveal what he saw that day from his house.

The witness hired a lawyer to defend him, because in such a complicated case, even the witness has to be prepared for any eventuality, and also for guidance.

Meanwhile American investigators, with the consent from local authorities, did a sonar test at the Monserat pond in the beginning of this year, when the water level was low.

DIARIO was informed that this test discovered 15 objects underwater, and that only 3 could be defined.

A polygraph (popularly referred to as a lie detector) is an instrument that measures and records several physiological responses such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration and skin conductivity while the subject is asked and answers a series of questions, on the theory that false answers will produce distinctive measurements. The polygraph measures physiological changes caused by the sympathetic nervous system during questioning.

The 48 year old witness passed this test with flying colors, indicating that everything he saw that dawn, close to the Monserat pond, is true.

DIARIO presumes that the Prosecutor’s Office received this statement from Holland, and just in case they didn’t, they can read it today for free and begin to do their homework.             

The first part of the article is a recap, but the second part regards Joran and Paulus searching by the pond. That hasn't come out, and we are not waiting on the FBI, we are going forward with what we have found out from this and other witnesses.
 
Joss

[Rob]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

Don't forget the missing cell phone that was reported stolen (to Freddie)

very good point Ree..

ya know, there is something totally missing here - Joran's ability to be in two places has finally been solved.

He can not be at home on the computer @ 3:26 am... so there is another accomplice beyond Paulus. This has to be Valentijn as suggested by Jonathan.

This also solves Van Der Stratten's chicken scratch cell phone triangulation. I've been saying since that was released that calls were missing - and one call in particular is now confirmed as MISSING - THE CALL TO PAULUS.

Here's a thought - Joran never does go home and is in fact taken by Paulus to the South side of the island and does make the call from St Lucia / Santa Cruz at 6:30 am and is ACTUALLY OBSERVED AT THE DRIVE IN on the main road NEAR THE BALASHI PLANT. Joran For some reason Paulus must have felt it necessary to remove Joran from the house as quickly as possible. The question is why? Anita was not home and there was no way that the MB posse could get from Alabama in just a few hours. I contend Joran was indeed spotted by the other MB kids with Paulus at the McDonald's and Paulus must have been worried that the MB kids were going to link Joran and a missing Natalee long before it actually happened in the lobby of the HI for departure. IIRC, everyone met in the lobby very early and there is only about an hour between everyone assembling to leave and Joran call from the south side of the island.

Joran is not home and is on the south end of the island while his bother is protected from testifying against him in a first degree family relationship. Joran does catch the bus as described by Dave Holloway and is not driven to ISA by his father (as we recall Paulus could not remember if he did drive him or not, just knew that Sebastian and Valentijn took he bus.) Paulus knew that the other two younger children took the bus, because he was back home around 5 am.

this is all starting to make some sense now...

or

is it just me?

[truthseeker2]

It makes a lot of sense, Rob.  Also, with the McDonald's being so close to the Allegro it makes sense why the uniforms of those security guards were described in the initial lie.  Someone had recently seen one of those guards...maybe as they were waiting for their ride.

Do you remember if this pic was taken at CnC's the night Natalee left there with Joran?  If so, where did the red t-shirt come from?

[LoRain]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

I thought the shoe from the pond was not Jorans?..

[Rob]

It makes a lot of sense, Rob.  Also, with the McDonald's being so close to the Allegro it makes sense why the uniforms of those security guards were described in the initial lie.  Someone had recently seen one of those guards...maybe as they were waiting for their ride.

Do you remember if this pic was taken at CnC's the night Natalee left there with Joran?  If so, where did the red t-shirt come from?

Hi ya TS, when the system burped there for a sec... my post kinda got screwed up. I hope I conveyed my thoughts clear enough. What's unique about the guards was it was their last night of work (contract ended), and the Allegro was closed and only workers from Colombia were there...IIRC all of that correctly after all this time.

The guards would not be guarding the property and tourists but guarding the property from looters while it was dark... so it makes sense that they are observed by Paulus and / or Joran and act as an additional plank of cover.

I don't remember when that photo was taken. sorry.

[johan555]

Maybe they were realy at the beach and joran said: we go to my House now by feet
And he tried to rape her near the pond

follow the white lines

[johan555]

It makes a lot of sense, Rob.  Also, with the McDonald's being so close to the Allegro it makes sense why the uniforms of those security guards were described in the initial lie.  Someone had recently seen one of those guards...maybe as they were waiting for their ride.

Do you remember if this pic was taken at CnC's the night Natalee left there with Joran?  If so, where did the red t-shirt come from?

that is very simple truthseeker2 - i took a white tee-shirt 15 min ago
and took a pic under a neon steetlight (street lantern ?)
and you see it appears red

[Buckeye]

15 items with 3 identified....by sonar....

Don't think drivers license would be identifiable 3 yrs. later...

Perhaps a bone could look like a branch....maybe there was a tire.  Think I'm more interested in the other 12 possibilities.....Kyle?????  What can be definitely identified with sonar?  What are the other possibilities?

If Joran had cut his leg or chest...his wet shirt could look red.

If they really had a porn video in, by LaCabana then passed the HI....if Natalee was with it at all...my guess is she came around swinging....maybe she opened the door and ran  ending up by the pond...with Joran chasing her....hmmmmm

Thanks angelalala.

[Buckeye]

It makes a lot of sense, Rob.  Also, with the McDonald's being so close to the Allegro it makes sense why the uniforms of those security guards were described in the initial lie.  Someone had recently seen one of those guards...maybe as they were waiting for their ride.

Do you remember if this pic was taken at CnC's the night Natalee left there with Joran?  If so, where did the red t-shirt come from?

Hi ya TS, when the system burped there for a sec... my post kinda got screwed up. I hope I conveyed my thoughts clear enough. What's unique about the guards was it was their last night of work (contract ended), and the Allegro was closed and only workers from Colombia were there...IIRC all of that correctly after all this time.

The guards would not be guarding the property and tourists but guarding the property from looters while it was dark... so it makes sense that they are observed by Paulus and / or Joran and act as an additional plank of cover.

I don't remember when that photo was taken. sorry.

I think they were trying to blame the guards from the SBF (black uniforms).  The two the police knew, were easier to locate and "deal" with....

[Buckeye]

johan

In my heart of hearts, I do not believe that Natalee would have willingly headed to Joran's house.  I believe she thought he was a tourist, like her and heading to the hotel.  I believe she is no longer here because she didn't cooperate.  I don't believe the "she died of alcohol and/or drugs".  I think she was given a drug but was also hurt...."they will see that shit"....

[Buckeye]

Interesting about neon light and white T shirt...

[Poochy]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

Don't forget the missing cell phone that was reported stolen (to Freddie)

very good point Ree..

ya know, there is something totally missing here - Joran's ability to be in two places has finally been solved.

He can not be at home on the computer @ 3:26 am... so there is another accomplice beyond Paulus. This has to be Valentijn as suggested by Jonathan.

This also solves Van Der Stratten's chicken scratch cell phone triangulation. I've been saying since that was released that calls were missing - and one call in particular is now confirmed as MISSING - THE CALL TO PAULUS.

Here's a thought - Joran never does go home and is in fact taken by Paulus to the South side of the island and does make the call from St Lucia / Santa Cruz at 6:30 am and is ACTUALLY OBSERVED AT THE DRIVE IN on the main road NEAR THE BALASHI PLANT. Joran For some reason Paulus must have felt it necessary to remove Joran from the house as quickly as possible. The question is why? Anita was not home and there was no way that the MB posse could get from Alabama in just a few hours. I contend Joran was indeed spotted by the other MB kids with Paulus at the McDonald's and Paulus must have been worried that the MB kids were going to link Joran and a missing Natalee long before it actually happened in the lobby of the HI for departure. IIRC, everyone met in the lobby very early and there is only about an hour between everyone assembling to leave and Joran call from the south side of the island.

Joran is not home and is on the south end of the island while his bother is protected from testifying against him in a first degree family relationship. Joran does catch the bus as described by Dave Holloway and is not driven to ISA by his father (as we recall Paulus could not remember if he did drive him or not, just knew that Sebastian and Valentijn took he bus.) Paulus knew that the other two younger children took the bus, because he was back home around 5 am.

this is all starting to make some sense now...

or

is it just me?

It's making sense to me also.

Maybe they were looking for her hotel key, if found near the pond they would certainly search in it first. Would have been the first place they looked. "The Key - the Key found in the car" (sorry, having a codetalker moment there).

And remember it was Sander who said he lost his cell phone that night. Sander Gottenbos, of the "Gotten the heck off Aruba" Gottenbos clan.

And I also thought Freddy slept over Jorans that night too.

[johan555]

johan

In my heart of hearts, I do not believe that Natalee would have willingly headed to Joran's house.  I believe she thought he was a tourist, like her and heading to the hotel.  I believe she is no longer here because she didn't cooperate.  I don't believe the "she died of alcohol and/or drugs".  I think she was given a drug but was also hurt...."they will see that shit"....

maybe the 2 K's brought them to the Matt App's
you can rent there a room for  1 hour or a few hours
Is paul vd sloot still on the island ? or is he on the run ?

[johan555]

Interesting about neon light and white T shirt...

yes i took a straight pic without any editing

[CapsLockWizard]

I can only surmise that Paulus and Joran were in fact looking for the missing shoe. BUT, why? Joran would known that it was in the pond. If we remove the shoe from what was the list - there may have been another item tied to Natalee that Joran may have dropped.

It seems that the shoe is accounted for in the pond - so, what would Paulus and Joran be looking for?

and does anyone have any idea what the three identified items were?

list -

Natalee's flop flops
Natalee's driver's license
50 dollar bill belonging to Natalee and identified by Deepak.

Don't forget the missing cell phone that was reported stolen (to Freddie)

very good point Ree..

ya know, there is something totally missing here - Joran's ability to be in two places has finally been solved.

He can not be at home on the computer @ 3:26 am... so there is another accomplice beyond Paulus. This has to be Valentijn as suggested by Jonathan.

This also solves Van Der Stratten's chicken scratch cell phone triangulation. I've been saying since that was released that calls were missing - and one call in particular is now confirmed as MISSING - THE CALL TO PAULUS.

Here's a thought - Joran never does go home and is in fact taken by Paulus to the South side of the island and does make the call from St Lucia / Santa Cruz at 6:30 am and is ACTUALLY OBSERVED AT THE DRIVE IN on the main road NEAR THE BALASHI PLANT. Joran For some reason Paulus must have felt it necessary to remove Joran from the house as quickly as possible. The question is why? Anita was not home and there was no way that the MB posse could get from Alabama in just a few hours. I contend Joran was indeed spotted by the other MB kids with Paulus at the McDonald's and Paulus must have been worried that the MB kids were going to link Joran and a missing Natalee long before it actually happened in the lobby of the HI for departure. IIRC, everyone met in the lobby very early and there is only about an hour between everyone assembling to leave and Joran call from the south side of the island.

Joran is not home and is on the south end of the island while his bother is protected from testifying against him in a first degree family relationship. Joran does catch the bus as described by Dave Holloway and is not driven to ISA by his father (as we recall Paulus could not remember if he did drive him or not, just knew that Sebastian and Valentijn took he bus.) Paulus knew that the other two younger children took the bus, because he was back home around 5 am.

this is all starting to make some sense now...

or

is it just me?

he went home to change his clothes. before he went to school.

[Rob]

he went home to change his clothes. before he went to school.
[/quote]

Hi Caps,

are you sure and how do you know?

your witness said he watched him walk away until he didn't see him any longer... right?

so, how you anyone know if he went home?